Marion and Julius - Roles Changing?

[theogt]

Actually, going back to last season, it appears at first glance that Adam is wrong.

I just looked at the two games that Barber got the most carries in and they were both in the 2nd half of the season (Week 10 and Week 12). In neither game did Barber get carries during a full series in the first half, at least not like he is now.

So, at a minimum, something has changed from their mid-to-late season '06 roles to early '07.

After these games, however, the defense went to **** and neither Julius nor Marion got enough carries to really dig into their roles.

 

[AdamJT13]

Actually, going back to last season, it appears at first glance that Adam is wrong.

I just looked at the two games that Barber got the most carries in and they were both in the 2nd half of the season (Week 10 and Week 12). In neither game did Barber get carries during a full series in the first half, at least not like he is now.

Barber had his most carries in Weeks 10 and 12 last season because they were both blowouts and he got a bunch of carries in the fourth quarter (seven in each game, plus some at the end of each third quarter).

Go back and look at Weeks 11 and 13, though. In both games, Barber came in for our first full possession of the second quarter, just as he has this season. And even still, against the Dolphins this week, Barber started the first possession of the second quarter, but Julius replaced him after a few plays.

 

[Doomsday101]

Barber had his most carries in Weeks 10 and 12 last season because they were both blowouts and he got a bunch of carries in the fourth quarter (seven in each game, plus some at the end of each third quarter).

Go back and look at Weeks 11 and 13, though. In both games, Barber came in for our first full possession of the second quarter, just as he has this season. And even still, against the Dolphins this week, Barber started the first possession of the second quarter, but Julius replaced him after a few plays.

Barber went into the Miami game this year in the 2nd series of the 1st qrt for the series and he was not getting that last season. He was getting series in the 2nd half of game but he was not involved as early in games as he has this season. Even Phillips has said while they will rotate the backs as it was done in the past it would not be the same as it was and it is not the same as it was last year.

 

[AdamJT13]

Barber was not coming in that early in the game

He got his first non-situational carries in the second quarter last year, just like he has this year. In Week 13 last year, he even got one early in the first quarter.

The only real difference in their situational carries so far this year is that Julius is actually getting some carries on third downs. He already has three carries on third down this season, which matches his entire season total from last year.

Other than that, any planned differences in their roles haven't been shown on the field yet. It's the frequency we've been in situations that has made a difference, not how they've been used in those situations.

 

[theogt]

Barber had his most carries in Weeks 10 and 12 last season because they were both blowouts and he got a bunch of carries in the fourth quarter (seven in each game, plus some at the end of each third quarter).

Go back and look at Weeks 11 and 13, though. In both games, Barber came in for our first full possession of the second quarter, just as he has this season. And even still, against the Dolphins this week, Barber started the first possession of the second quarter, but Julius replaced him after a few plays.

"First full series" is a bit misleading in the Colts game given that the first series of the 2nd quarter only had one play in the final seconds of the 1st quarter. I doubt, if there was any design to give Barber carries in the 2nd quarter, the coaches would be that precise.

Barber came in full time during the 2nd series of the 2nd quarter probably because it was non-typical situation. We were back inside our own 10 yard line because Roy Williams had just picked off Manning at the goalline.

Regardless of this nitpicking, at a minimum you'd have to say that from the beginning of the '06 season to the end there was an shift in roles. You must also conclude that, though minor there has also been a further shift going into the early '07 season, particularly when you consider the roles in the last game of the '06 season, in which Jones carried the overwhelming majority of the snaps. You can also look at the Atlanta game where Barber didn't receive any of the first half carries except in situational roles.

There *is* evidence of a trend here. It may be purely coincidental, but I doubt it.

 

[AdamJT13]

Barber went into the Miami game this year in the 2nd series of the 1st qrt for the series and he was not getting that last season.

He came in because we got down near the red zone. He did that last year, too, even in the first quarter.

 

[AdamJT13]

"First full series" is a bit misleading in the Colts game given that the first series of the 2nd quarter only had one play in the final seconds of the 1st quarter. I doubt, if there was any design to give Barber carries in the 2nd quarter, the coaches would be that precise.

If they were planning to give Barber a series in the second quarter, do you really think they'd make the switch on the second play of a possession, just because the quarter changed?

Barber came in full time during the 2nd series of the 2nd quarter probably because it was non-typical situation. We were back inside our own 10 yard line because Roy Williams had just picked off Manning at the goalline.

Even if that was the reason he went in at first, Barber stayed in the game even after we moved the ball out past the 40.

Regardless of this nitpicking, at a minimum you'd have to say that from the beginning of the '06 season to the end there was an shift in roles.

I've been saying that all along. The change in their roles happened last year much moreso than this year.

You must also conclude that, though minor there has also been a further shift going into the early '07 season, particularly when you consider the roles in the last game of the '06 season, in which Jones carried the overwhelming majority of the snaps.

Julius had 10 carries and Barber had seven in that game. And most of Julius' carries came early in the game.

 

[theogt]

If they were planning to give Barber a series in the second quarter, do you really think they'd make the switch on the second play of a possession, just because the quarter changed?

No. THey'd just give it to him in the final seconds of the first quarter.

Even if that was the reason he went in at first, Barber stayed in the game even after we moved the ball out past the 40.

Sure. But if the plan is to experiment with giving Barber full carries, this would be the time to start. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen last year. I'm just saying it didn't have with the same regularity with which it's happening now.

I've been saying that all along. The change in their roles happened last year much moreso than this year.

And I'm saying that the role change is continuing to develop.

Julius had 10 carries and Barber had seven in that game. And most of Julius' carries came early in the game.

Julius had 22 carries in the playoff game compared to Barber's 3 carries. Sorry, I should have said playoff game to be more specific.

You can also look at the Atlanta game where Barber didn't receive any of the first half carries except in situational roles.

 

[theogt]

Ok. I just looked at the final nine games of the 2006 season. The only two games in that stretch that Barber received non-situational carries in the first half were against Indy and against New York. It's awful convenient, Adam, that these are the only two games you brought up, considering they're the only two games that help your point. You ignored the other SEVEN games that disprove your point.

After further review, it is becoming EXTREMELY clear that the roles for Barber and Jones has started to change this season.

 

[Doomsday101]

He came in because we got down near the red zone. He did that last year, too, even in the first quarter.

When Barber entered we were not in the redzone. The following series he came in when Dallas was on their own 37 yard line. Dallas is not using Barber like they did last year he is getting more involved earlier in the game.

 

[Bleu Star]

When Barber entered we were not in the redzone. The following series he came in when Dallas was on their own 37 yard line. Dallas is not using Barber like they did last year he is getting more involved earlier in the game.

There room for even more improvement on that. Get him involved very early & very late. Period.

 

[AdamJT13]

No. THey'd just give it to him in the final seconds of the first quarter.

Not if they were planning to do it in the second quarter.

Sure. But if the plan is to experiment with giving Barber full carries, this would be the time to start. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen last year. I'm just saying it didn't have with the same regularity with which it's happening now.

It's too early to say it's happening with regularity now. Against the Giants, Barber's second-quarter possession lasted one whole play before we got inside the 30, which is when he often comes in anyway. And like I said earlier, on Barber's second-quarter possession against the Dolphins, Julius came back in before the end of the drive.

And I'm saying that the role change is continuing to develop.

It could, but everything that has happened so far also happened last year. Not every game, of course, but it won't happen every game this year, either.

Julius had 22 carries in the playoff game compared to Barber's 3 carries. Sorry, I should have said playoff game to be more specific.

That obviously wasn't typical for how they were used throughout the second half of last season.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not if they were planning to do it in the second quarter.




It's too early to say it's happening with regularity now. Against the Giants, Barber's second-quarter possession lasted one whole play before we got inside the 30, which is when he often comes in anyway. And like I said earlier, on Barber's second-quarter possession against the Dolphins, Julius came back in before the end of the drive.



It could, but everything that has happened so far also happened last year. Not every game, of course, but it won't happen every game this year, either.




That obviously wasn't typical for how they were used throughout the second half of last season.

I guess we will see but thus far I do see a differance in how they are using Barber and it is not just situational.

 

[theogt]

Not if they were planning to do it in the second quarter.

That's precisely the silly thing I was trying to point out. If the design was to give him plays in the 2nd quarter, it'd be ridiculous to be so precise as to not give him the carry (and subsequent carries of the same drive) simply because the first play of the drive was at the very end of the 1st quarter.

It's too early to say it's happening with regularity now. Against the Giants, Barber's second-quarter possession lasted one whole play before we got inside the 30, which is when he often comes in anyway. And like I said earlier, on Barber's second-quarter possession against the Dolphins, Julius came back in before the end of the drive.

I'll concede that the sample size is small, but their roles are changing based on that small sample size. Only time will tell if it's real or not.

It could, but everything that has happened so far also happened last year. Not every game, of course, but it won't happen every game this year, either.

It happened last year to some extent -- moreso as the season went on. It did not happen to the same extent as it's happening this year. Hence, a possible trend.

That obviously wasn't typical for how they were used throughout the second half of last season.

Doesn't matter. It's how they were used. And it's different from how they're being used now.

 

[AdamJT13]

When Barber entered we were not in the redzone.

I said we were near the red zone. Julius was in until we got to Miami's 25, then Barber came in. Barber often came in when we got near the red zone -- not inside it -- last year, too.

The following series he came in when Dallas was on their own 37 yard line.

And he was out of the game six plays later, when Julius came back in.

Dallas is not using Barber like they did last year he is getting more involved earlier in the game.

Like I said, everything that has happened this year also happened last year at various times. There has been virtually no change in their situational roles (other than Julius apparently getting more third-down carries). And the only evidence of getting Barber "involved earlier" is a whole two non-situational carries in the second quarter against Miami before Julius came back in.

 

[dallasfaniac]

So the trend also shows that the more we rely on Barber, the worse our defense looks. Stats schmats.

 

[Hoov]

I said we were near the red zone. Julius was in until we got to Miami's 25, then Barber came in. Barber often came in when we got near the red zone -- not inside it -- last year, too.



And he was out of the game six plays later, when Julius came back in.



Like I said, everything that has happened this year also happened last year at various times. There has been virtually no change in their situational roles (other than Julius apparently getting more third-down carries). And the only evidence of getting Barber "involved earlier" is a whole two non-situational carries in the second quarter against Miami before Julius came back in.

dont worry, barber will be starting soon - then we wont have to argue if it was the 2nd series or 3rd....the 4th and 5th carry, but not the 6th carry :

 

[theogt]

dont worry, barber will be starting soon - then we wont have to argue if it was the 2nd series or 3rd....the 4th and 5th carry, but not the 6th carry :

Well that won't be any fun.

What do we talk about then? Starting fullback? Hoyte >>>>>> Anderson

 

[theogt]

And he was out of the game six plays later, when Julius came back in.

Strangely enough, that play that was six plays later (and the next play counting penalty) was a 3rd and long play -- a role that is typically filled by Marion Barber.

Role reversal anyone?

 

[AdamJT13]

That's precisely the silly thing I was trying to point out. If the design was to give him plays in the 2nd quarter, it'd be ridiculous to be so precise as to not give him the carry (and subsequent carries of the same drive) simply because the first play of the drive was at the very end of the 1st quarter.

I don't even know why you're arguing this point. First of all, if the plan was to get Barber a possession in the second quarter, why would they do it in the first quarter? What if there was time for two plays in the first quarter? Or three? Or four? Are they going to put him in if there's time for one play, but not two? Or two, but not three?

Secondly, we haven't had any similar situations this season to see if it would be any different now. If we get a non-situational possession with a few seconds left in the first quarter sometime in the next few weeks and Barber is in the game, then you might be onto something. But there's no way to know whether anything is different until then.

I'll concede that the sample size is small, but their roles are changing based on that small sample size. Only time will tell if it's real or not.

It happened last year to some extent -- moreso as the season went on. It did not happen to the same extent as it's happening this year. Hence, a possible trend.

AT BEST, the change is to get Barber a few non-situational carries in the second quarter instead of the third. But he's had only two of them so far, and he did get them at times last year. I don't consider that much of a role change.

Doesn't matter. It's how they were used. And it's different from how they're being used now.

It was different from how they were being used before that, too. One atypical game does not signify a change in roles. Especially when their roles now are virtually identical to their roles before that atypical game.