Maybe Its A Culture Problem, Not Neccessarily Playcalling

[Sydla]

I'm not ignoring your questions here. You're replying to me with two separate conversations in the same thread, and they're getting intertwined. No, there's no magic time period where I fire a coach if I don't thin the coach is the problem. I'm always going to address what I think the problem is instead.

So in other words, you'll likely never realize what an average head coach Garrett is. You will always have the cover that it's Jerry holding him back.

What's interesting to me is that if Jerry is such a problem and he's the real issue as to why this team doesn't win more, I would then assume that other coaches he's held back but were good coaches would have gone on to have success elsewhere. And yet, Gailey was a flame out in Buffalo as a head coach and Campo and Phillips couldn't get another head coaching gig because the market deemed them to be unworthy.

Maybe the problem isn't that Jones meddles too much and holds his head coaches back. Maybe the problem is that Jerry just sucks at hiring head coaches.

 

[Idgit]

So in other words, you'll likely never realize what an average head coach Garrett is. You will always have the cover that it's Jerry holding him back.

What's interesting to me is that if Jerry is such a problem and he's the real issue as to why this team doesn't win more, I would then assume that other coaches he's held back but were good coaches would have gone on to have success elsewhere. And yet, Gailey was a flame out in Buffalo as a head coach and Campo and Phillips couldn't get another head coaching gig because the market deemed them to be unworthy.

Maybe the problem isn't that Jones meddles too much and holds his head coaches back. Maybe the problem is that Jerry just sucks at hiring head coaches.

Those are your words, not mine. I obviously don't feel the same way you to about Jason Garrett. I agree that as long as Jerry meddles, it will always be the case that the coach in Dallas has to work around Jerry's meddling.

BTW, it doesn't follow that because I think Jason Garrett is a good head coach that I think Wade Phillips or Dave Campo or Chan Gailey were good head coaches, if that's what you're getting at. It's possible to both be a bad coach and to work for an obstruction of an owner. It's also possible to be a good coach and to not win have a winning team for other reasons. There are lots of different reasons why teams lose games in the NFL.

You seem to think it's the coach, and perhaps you're right. Perhaps the next guy will be the one we've been waiting for, all along. He'll do the right things and call the right plays and employ the right schemes and draft the right players and be able to handle Jerry just fine. Of course, he probably won't, but at that point you can complain he wasn't the right hire in the first place and that, if we just replace him after a season or three, we'll maybe get it right the next time.

 

[Dodger12]

And I"m not contradicting myself at all. I've been very clear. Garrett is not perfect, but he's not really the source of the problem. Changing a piece that is not really the problem is unlikely to fix the problem, so let's not do that. Let's instead try to work on the actual problem.

How do you propose we do that? What are you inferring?

The entire thing gets stripped down almost all the time in every NFL city when a coach is fired and a new regime is brought in. It's not an exaggeration to suggest that's what would happen in Dallas.

We wouldn't want to do that...we may go 8 and 8 or win less that 4 games.

I gotta hand it to you. I can appreciate that you've been consistent all these years. I yearn for the days when you would preach paitience because we were "building something" and now, in years 5 and 6 of JG's tenure, we're still waiting to see the fruits of this master plan and it's all on Jerry, gameday blunders and ineptitude be damned.

 

[Sydla]

Those are your words, not mine. I obviously don't feel the same way you to about Jason Garrett. I agree that as long as Jerry meddles, it will always be the case that the coach in Dallas has to work around Jerry's meddling.

BTW, it doesn't follow that because I think Jason Garrett is a good head coach that I think Wade Phillips or Dave Campo or Chan Gailey were good head coaches, if that's what you're getting at. It's possible to both be a bad coach and to work for an obstruction of an owner. It's also possible to be a good coach and to not win have a winning team for other reasons. There are lots of different reasons why teams lose games in the NFL.

You seem to think it's the coach, and perhaps you're right. Perhaps the next guy will be the one we've been waiting for, all along. He'll do the right things and call the right plays and employ the right schemes and draft the right players and be able to handle Jerry just fine. Of course, he probably won't, but at that point you can complain he wasn't the right hire in the first place and that, if we just replace him after a season or three, we'll maybe get it right the next time.

I hope you are right. I hope Jason Garrett is on the cusp of something great.

But I suspect that you are probably wrong. The evidence is certainly mounting in the direction that you are wrong. It will be interesting to watch and see if you ever actually wake up to that realization or will you always just assume Garrett was some really good head coach destroyed by Jerry Jones' meddling.

 

[Idgit]

I hope you are right. I hope Jason Garrett is on the cusp of something great.

But I suspect that you are probably wrong. The evidence is certainly mounting in the direction that you are wrong. It will be interesting to watch and see if you ever actually wake up to that realization or will you always just assume Garrett was some really good head coach destroyed by Jerry Jones' meddling.

The nice thing about your take is that you don't ever have to be wrong if it's always the new coach who's the problem.

I'll let slide your mischaracterization of what I've said here about Garrett, but I'm afraid I can tell you right now that--depending how his eventual departure actually goes down--I'm probably going to end up telling you that I still think he's a good coach and wasn't in the right situation. I've said many times that there a lot of things that cause NFL teams to lose football games, and I'm not likely to change my mind re: what I think has caused us to lose them just because Jason is no longer here. If you're waiting for a great enlightenment for me or something you're probably not going to see it.

I say probably, because it's possible something comes to light that we haven't heard yet that changes my opinion. But short of that, I'm going to think he's a good coach because the evidence suggests he's a good coach.

I thought the same thing about Sean Payton and Mike Zimmer when they were ridden out on rails here by our fans. It doesn't bother me a bit if literally nobody on the site shares my opinion on the matter. I think I was the last person here defending Terrence Newman, too, four years ago when everybody and his brother thought the evidence was certainly mounting that he was done. Turns out he wasn't.

 

[yimyammer]

Exactly. When he came here he immediately talked about changing the culture. When he left he warned us before long you won't even know he was here. The culture went right back to cancer..

I've been looking for the source of this quote for years, does anyone have a link to it?

 

[Idgit]

....I gotta hand it to you. I can appreciate that you've been consistent all these years. I yearn for the days when you would preach paitience because we were "building something" and now, in years 5 and 6 of JG's tenure, we're still waiting to see the fruits of this master plan and it's all on Jerry, gameday blunders and ineptitude be damned.

Whatever my failings, I'm usually consistent because I usually need reasons to change my opinion. In my defense to your statement, I've never been one to predict championships. I know that winning big in the NFL is difficult. When I've preached patience, it was to people who were freaking out of signing stop-gap veterans in FA while we drafted young players to develop behind them and the like.

I also happen to think that we've been relatively competitive during the last few years. I thought the 8-8 teams were reasonably fun seasons to watch that ended about where those teams should have ended. Last year was a blindside disaster out of nowhere, and it was really disappointing, but other than that I've pretty much enjoyed the Romo era. I know a lot of fans have not, but then a lot of our fans don't have a great sense of context and have an overactive sense of entitlement.

 

[Idgit]

I've been looking for the source of this quote for years, does anyone have a link to it?

Huh. Weird that it's not available it was a fairly big quote when it came out.

I always thought it was a strange thing to say given that Bill really didn't really have enough success here to make us think there was all that much to miss. He was a heck of a coach, though. And a lot of fun in his press conferences.

 

[Idgit]

One more on this, because it's relevant to the topic. What does everybody think about how Arians handled the loss to NE?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...lling-to-call-out-players-by-name-after-loss/

 

[MikeT22]

Didn't Jimmy Johnson say in a pre game show about a year or so ago that Dallas is more like a country club atmosphere than and professional sports team. I don't know about you guys but I've never been stressed out going to a country club. If that's true then it explains a lot as far as dumb players repeatedly doing dumb things and a lot of stuff we've been complaining about the last couple years.

It's true and it starts at the top. After Jimmy left Jerry has hired a slew of lackluster HC's who "he can work with". BP was the only exception to that. Nobody is made to be accountable unless they are self-motivators. And there's been many instances where Jerry appeased star players overruling and underming what authority the HC may have.

It's no wonder we see players come and go yet we keep having the same results. Nothing changes at the top.

 

[yimyammer]

Huh. Weird that it's not available it was a fairly big quote when it came out.

I always thought it was a strange thing to say given that Bill really didn't really have enough success here to make us think there was all that much to miss. He was a heck of a coach, though. And a lot of fun in his press conferences.

I dont know if its not available,I was hoping it was my poor google skillz

I know a lot of folks didn't like Parcells but I'm with you, I enjoyed him and his press conferences. Personally, I think he's the best thing they've had since Jimmy left, wish he had been a few years younger so we could see what would have happened had he held on for 2+ more years.

oh we'll, SIGH........

 

[Redball Express]

Now, this is a thread I can get behind. I'm not sure what the problem is, but it needs to change. I don't know if it's a benching, or a bold proclamation, or what, but somebody needs to get some skin in the game in Dallas. And I'm perfectly fine putting that on the head coach, where it belongs.

The frustrating this is the same symptoms bite us from a different place each game. It's drive-killing OL penalties. It's ST breakdowns. It's downfield blocking calls on WRs that remove TDs. It's drops, or officials overturning calls they should not, or body catches, or the sun in my eyes, or not getting out of bounds. It's a blown coverage because a LB got hurt at the end of regulation. It's not holding your water at QB and putting in a guy who doesn't take care of the football. You can't see it coming because it's so many little things.

Is it culture? Maybe. I think, mostly, we've got a good culture right now, but there's something keeping these guys from getting the job done when it matters.

Is it reliance on Tony's magic to make it all work? Maybe. Tony's pretty great. But we found so many ways to lose last season, it was crazy. And we picked up right where we left off this week.

My own feeling is that we're very close. It's a mental shift or an expectation, or a fear of getting fired or cut or something. I'm not sure what's missing, but whatever it is, I honestly don't think it's something all that significant. You could kind of feel things slide into focus for us in 2014 as the swagger started. When it did, all of the little excuses for it not getting done sort of just disappeared and things started to snowball positively.

I wish I had a better answer for what I thought the problem was. It drives me crazy, and makes the games and the seasons just not fun to watch when we sisyphus it out there week after week after week.

My feeling resolves around the fact that Garrett has this perception from the owner that he will accept what Garrett has to offer unconditionally.

There is no stated requirement from the owner what is the bottom line nor any stated alternative for failure.

In a culture like that..players pickup on it too.

The players are not being held accountable for what is happening.

Right now..we are expecting 2 rookies in DAK and Zeke to carry the hopes of the team.

That's wrong.

It's up to the other 51 players to elevate their games to help these 2 guys..not to just go thru the motions.

For far too long..Garrett has been allowed to remain because the owner thinks he sees improvement in his work.

It's not about improving. This is not high school football or scoring well on some test from Princeton.

It's about winning football games.

Either as a HC you do or you don't.

Garrett doesn't.

It's not going to get better for Red.

We have a long way to go with all our suspensions and injured QBs.

Garrett is not going to just flip a switch to raise the team once everybody is healthy and back.

He has to do it now with who he has.

To me the team has just not got high enough goals under Garrett.

The hand claps and back pats in the face of adversity signal to the team like they are children and Mommy approves of the effort even without results.

We need somebody very different from the Garrett methods.

Who what and where will only have to be determined.

I doubt very seriously any coach worth having will come here while the Romo Era continues.

Nobody is going to want to step in while the bromance b/w Romo and Jones continues.

Hopefully DAK can right the ship and move the Franchise forward..

But it's going to be like killing a vampire..silver bullets and crosses may not be enough.

 

[Idgit]

I dont know if its not available,I was hoping it was my poor google skillz

I know a lot of folks didn't like Parcells but I'm with you, I enjoyed him and his press conferences. Personally, I think he's the best thing they've had since Jimmy left, wish he had been a few years younger so we could see what would have happened had he held on for 2+ more years.

oh we'll, SIGH........

He was great. I could never get past his Giants roots, but other than that, just a great coach and a really interesting person. And he had that quality of needling and getting the best out of players. Or of using the needing to figure out if a guy was a player or not. Old-school cool dude. He just was struggling to keep the fire going all the time there the last several years of his career.

 

[yimyammer]

What's the point of that?

I'm with you on your overarching point and have argued the same position multiple times so I'd say at this juncture is Garrett has become like a lottery ticket for a lotto that's already taken place and has no shot of winning.

At least if they buy a new lotto ticket with new number, there will be a chance of success, albeit a longshot because after all, it will always be a lotto with jeri at the helm

 

[Idgit]

I'm with you on your overarching point and have argued the same position multiple times so I'd say at this juncture is Garrett has become like a lottery ticket for a lotto that's already taken place and has no shot of winning.

At least if they buy a new lotto ticket with new number, there will be a chance of success, albeit a longshot because after all, it will always be a lotto with jeri at the helm

That's the danger. At some point he loses his effect on the players. And we probably are getting close to a time when that happens. I would like to see him pull out a small can of whoop-*** this week somehow. Elevating Butler. Or pulling Collins in favor of Leary after a holding call or something. I posted the link above about Arians calling players out in the press. Jason has to be careful that he doesn't do anything out of character that comes off as phony, but he needs to do something to kick these guys into gear a bit emotionally. He's done it in the past a little bit. Benching Murray, or trusting them to go for it on 4th down when it's not really necessary. The team needs a vote of confidence from his head coach and everybody needs a little more skin in the game somehow.

 

[viman96]

I have mentioned for a couple years now the issue in Dallas is cultural. IMO they have accepted losing and find excuses for various issues.

 

[Dodger12]

Whatever my failings, I'm usually consistent because I usually need reasons to change my opinion. In my defense to your statement, I've never been one to predict championships. I know that winning big in the NFL is difficult. When I've preached patience, it was to people who were freaking out of signing stop-gap veterans in FA while we drafted young players to develop behind them and the like.

I also happen to think that we've been relatively competitive during the last few years. I thought the 8-8 teams were reasonably fun seasons to watch that ended about where those teams should have ended. Last year was a blindside disaster out of nowhere, and it was really disappointing, but other than that I've pretty much enjoyed the Romo era. I know a lot of fans have not, but then a lot of our fans don't have a great sense of context and have an overactive sense of entitlement.

I hear you but the "patience" meme had to do with Garrett and building a team to be competitive for the long haul, not necessarily for the players to develop. This held true especially because we had a franchise QB in place.

In any event, I don't think it's a lot to ask to win some playoff games, go to an NFC Championship game or even a SB in a parity driven NFL. That has nothing to do with entitlement. An expansion team just went to it's second SB. The Jags and AZ have benefitted from parity. The only ones talking SB are those who are completely blinded and I don't think most folks are taking it that far. But it's not a sence of entitlement or that we lack context. It's the way the NFL is built today. I wonder how many teams have not made it to a Champtionship game in the last 20 years? I'd bet where in there with some pretty exclusive, bottom feeding company.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Something to consider.
The raiders at one time were a very good team even with Uncle Al.
Then that went to shreds and Uncle Al still ran things while the team still had troubles.

Uncle Al is out of the way.
Now the Dutch paint boy aka Tommy Boy is in charge but
He has let others assemble the team.

Notice that the Raiders are doing a lot better drafting and starting to do better on the field.

Just something to consider.

I am not saying...just saying
Love,
Crazy haired alien guy

 

[CouchCoach]

Now, this is a thread I can get behind. I'm not sure what the problem is, but it needs to change. I don't know if it's a benching, or a bold proclamation, or what, but somebody needs to get some skin in the game in Dallas. And I'm perfectly fine putting that on the head coach, where it belongs.

The frustrating this is the same symptoms bite us from a different place each game. It's drive-killing OL penalties. It's ST breakdowns. It's downfield blocking calls on WRs that remove TDs. It's drops, or officials overturning calls they should not, or body catches, or the sun in my eyes, or not getting out of bounds. It's a blown coverage because a LB got hurt at the end of regulation. It's not holding your water at QB and putting in a guy who doesn't take care of the football. You can't see it coming because it's so many little things.

Is it culture? Maybe. I think, mostly, we've got a good culture right now, but there's something keeping these guys from getting the job done when it matters.

Is it reliance on Tony's magic to make it all work? Maybe. Tony's pretty great. But we found so many ways to lose last season, it was crazy. And we picked up right where we left off this week.

My own feeling is that we're very close. It's a mental shift or an expectation, or a fear of getting fired or cut or something. I'm not sure what's missing, but whatever it is, I honestly don't think it's something all that significant. You could kind of feel things slide into focus for us in 2014 as the swagger started. When it did, all of the little excuses for it not getting done sort of just disappeared and things started to snowball positively.

I wish I had a better answer for what I thought the problem was. It drives me crazy, and makes the games and the seasons just not fun to watch when we sisyphus it out there week after week after week.

The answer is simple and it's not the HC as it wasn't with Wade. I'll be the first to say Wade's not a good HC but he was better than he showed here. And it's perplexing because the players really liked him, but they did not respect him in the position. He knew this and asked his boss if he could increase fines and what was he told? Not only no, but some players will have "media passes" and excused for showing up late for team meetings.

What was Garrett's first edict when he took over? Coats and ties, let's look professional. Who broke that rule the first chance he had and what happened to Barber?

All the other teams have the culture established by the HC and the team usually reflects that. Remember that FA DB we had for a short while mentioning that team meetings were held up because Booger & Son were running late?

This team is a cluster beginning at the top and it just filters down and it all centers around "good enough is good enough" and excuses. Any success we'll have, under these circumstances, will be difficult and while I am not a Garrett guy, he's from a football family, played for Johnson, Fassel and coached for Saban and Parcells. Anything in that background suggest wus to anyone about the man?

He's getting paid 6M a year to do a job and the job is doing what his boss wants him to do. And since his boss is a meddler, he can't really hold his employee accountable, can he?

 

[Sydla]

The nice thing about your take is that you don't ever have to be wrong if it's always the new coach who's the problem.

I'll let slide your mischaracterization of what I've said here about Garrett, but I'm afraid I can tell you right now that--depending how his eventual departure actually goes down--I'm probably going to end up telling you that I still think he's a good coach and wasn't in the right situation. I've said many times that there a lot of things that cause NFL teams to lose football games, and I'm not likely to change my mind re: what I think has caused us to lose them just because Jason is no longer here. If you're waiting for a great enlightenment for me or something you're probably not going to see it.

I say probably, because it's possible something comes to light that we haven't heard yet that changes my opinion. But short of that, I'm going to think he's a good coach because the evidence suggests he's a good coach.

I thought the same thing about Sean Payton and Mike Zimmer when they were ridden out on rails here by our fans. It doesn't bother me a bit if literally nobody on the site shares my opinion on the matter. I think I was the last person here defending Terrence Newman, too, four years ago when everybody and his brother thought the evidence was certainly mounting that he was done. Turns out he wasn't.

You have the same option.............. you can always claim to be right about Garrett because you can always blame Jones as the problem. So you really are not much different.

And in reality, I've already admitted that Jones is part of the problem. He's a meddler and made poor decisions as head of player acquisition. I mean how many times have you read me say that Jones totally screwed the pooch at DE this offseason? How can he come out and say pass rush and DE were an issue after last season and then the plan is to head into August camp with only one proven DE on the roster? But the Cowboys problems go beyond just a meddlesome owner. The coach is a problem too. It's not an either or situation.

There is no mischaracterization of what you have said here. You think Garrett is a good coach and he's hindered by Jones. You seem to now have doubled down on that suggesting that even if he fails here, you'll still think he was a very good coach who just had a bad situation.

PS - What evidence is there that he's a good coach? I mean real evidence. Not something like, "He works well with the scouting department".