McNabb getting ripped in Philly

[bayeslife]

In typical Philly fan over-reaction they're once again ready to run this guy out on a rail cause he isn't perfect.

Of course the same could be said for some of the Cowboys fans on these forums as well.

McNabb has been doing that his whole career. His famous dirtballs and 100mph throws on a flat route.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

This is the key.

He has never been nearly as great as he has been heralded, especially since his knee surgery which took a lot of the streetball out of him. As for his special brand of leadership, well, you just need to look at him rolling the younger players under the bus, which is the direct opposite of what his head coach stated. Burn, baby. Burn.

for me it is the look on his face when the defence is not stopping the opponent, he just looks angry at them

it is never his fault

only one player has ever called him out, TO and he was right

 

[KalEl]

First, you need to ask LOBO. He first coined the phrase.

Second, that's not the first clutch drive Ben had, nor has it been the last.

Third, interesting that you make that play all about Santonio Holmes and not about Big Ben putting the ball where only S.H. can catch it. :laugh2:

Fourth, stealing a page from your book, what the heck does "guys you least want to face on any given Sunday" mean?

Fifth, so I take it Aikman wasn't one of those quarterbacks who could consistently beat you by himself, whatever that means.
No quarterback can consistently beat you by himself. But Big Ben has had several drives where he beats teams, by avoiding a sack and making a perfect throw.

Big Ben is ELITE.

Are you a Steelers fan...
Get over it...Big Ben is not an elite QB. He's a mediocre QB with a great defense...much like Jim McMahon...:laugh2:

 

[Tass]

If he is elite, that does not say much for the QBing in the league.

Brady, Rivers, Brees and Manning are elite. The only thing elite about McNabb is the manner in which he spits the bit at one point or another each year.

You included Rivers and not Romo? Come on, man...

 

[wileedog]

In championship games? In the Super Bowl?

Thanks for that reach.

And the point continues to fly past you.

If Harrison drops a ball, if Wayne drops a ball, if Moss drops a ball, do Peyton and Brady "find a way to win"?

If, if, if.

Pulease. You're reaching.

You can't answer the question.

If Manning goes in there last year and blows out the Cards 34-7, is he not elite because he didn't have a last minute drive at the end?

Where was Ben's eliteness the rest of the game when the Steelers were losing?

You're basing your scoring system on some weird "he had a drive that won a game" criteria that is just bogus. There are too many variable to winning a football game to decide that the QB can "find a way to win."

Is that what defines elite? What defines top? The ones with the better numbers? If that's the case, then Vinny Testeverde and Drew Bledsoe are among the top quarterbacks in NFL history?

Are you saying Marino sucks or is not one of the best QBs in NFL history? Or that Elway became one of the greatest QBs in NFL history ONLY after he got a running game?

You're criteria is stupidly subjective and based on the rest of the team around them.

Exactly. And Big Ben can too. He just hasn't had to because the Steelers were a run-first team. He now has to do it and has had to pass for a victory. And he has done that.

Not consistently.

Oh, and Roethlisberger has a winning record as a quarterback.

He has 127 TDs vs 81 INTs. I could almost make the argument he has been detrimental to his team in doing that.

Furthermore, rating a QB on wins is even dumber than rating baseball pitchers on wins.

Second, you can't just point to interceptions and say that makes a bad quarterback. You have to examine those interceptions. Were they bad throws? Were they tipped passes? Did they come at the end of the half or at the end of a game?

OMG and you say I am reaching?

All excuses. So now it's not "What if Holmes drops the ball" it's "He had a better defense."

Its both. Pay attention.

Yep, he's elite.

Say it a few more times, still won't be true.

 

[VThokie7]

for me it is the look on his face when the defence is not stopping the opponent, he just looks angry at them

it is never his fault

only one player has ever called him out, TO and he was right

100% agree with the bolded text.

 

[kramskoi]

This is the key.

He has never been nearly as great as he has been heralded, especially since his knee surgery which took a lot of the streetball out of him. As for his special brand of leadership, well, you just need to look at him rolling the younger players under the bus, which is the direct opposite of what his head coach stated. Burn, baby. Burn.

...and yet everyone will tell you that it was just Owens who had issues in Philly...i think McNabb's nonchalant attitude puts him at odds with the fan-base...i always get the feeling he thinks he's too good to be playing in Philadelphia...

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

Dallas will be ready for the Eagirls... I'll be waiting for the excuses after this game.

 

[viman96]

McNabb choked in another big game

 

[Don Corleone]

...and yet everyone will tell you that it was just Owens who had issues in Philly...i think McNabb's nonchalant attitude puts him at odds with the fan-base...i always get the feeling he thinks he's too good to be playing in Philadelphia...

He just thinks that he's the big fish, the head honcho, the big kahuna...the one who cannot be criticized. He threw his WRs under the bus after this game. I wonder how that will resonate in the locker room.

I just laugh at all the people that say he'll bounce back and beat us next week. Bounce back on what basis? Give me some X's and O's. Not some BS about how Philly always plays well with their backs against the wall.

 

[2much2soon]

Are you a Steelers fan...
Get over it...Big Ben is not an elite QB. He's a mediocre QB with a great defense...much like Jim McMahon...:laugh2:

And a dominant running game, along with the great defense, along with one of most poorly officiated Super Bowls in anyone's memory, the first time Pitts won with Big Ben. The same year Pitts admitted they just needed Big Ben to be a bus-driver. And he was.

Put him in San Fran, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, TB, for his whole career and see how many people want to argue he is an "elite" QB.

That just ain't happening.

He is guy a guy with enough talent to play in the NFL who just happened into the perfect situation for himself.

 

[Hoov]

for me it is the look on his face when the defence is not stopping the opponent, he just looks angry at them

it is never his fault

only one player has ever called him out, TO and he was right

you can tell if the eagles are done early in the game by watching McNabb. In the second quarter i said that its over because it looked like McNabb was already thinking about what to say in his postgame interview instead of how to pull the team together to get back in the game.

 

[es22]

McNabb is still an elite QB in this league and Philly would be have to be absolutely braindead to let him go.

I was hoping that both McNabb and Reid would be fired at the end of last yr. this is the only team that scares me in the NFC. They always present matchup problems with Dallas as far back as I can remember.

 

[tyke1doe]

Are you a Steelers fan...
Get over it...Big Ben is not an elite QB. He's a mediocre QB with a great defense...much like Jim McMahon...:laugh2:

When you can't defeat their arguments restore to ad hom attacks. Figures.

No, I'm not a Steelers fan. But I can understand how simple-minded people who are singularly focused on the Cowboys would think that any defense of Big Ben would constitute being a Steelers fan.

I guess I need to ask others who believe Brady and Manning are elite quarterbacks whether they're Pats and Colts fans respectively.

Yeah, that's some logic there.

BTW, did Jim McMahon lead his team on a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl?
Funny, if the Steelers defense was all that great, why did they need Big Ben to rally them at the end? Why didn't they just blow the Cardinals out like the Bears did.
Or maybe I need to use the logic of this thread by questioning whether the Bears defense was great because they played that slug of a Patriots offense. :laugh2:

 

[tyke1doe]

And a dominant running game, along with the great defense, along with one of most poorly officiated Super Bowls in anyone's memory, the first time Pitts won with Big Ben. The same year Pitts admitted they just needed Big Ben to be a bus-driver. And he was.

Put him in San Fran, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, TB, for his whole career and see how many people want to argue he is an "elite" QB.

That just ain't happening.

He is guy a guy with enough talent to play in the NFL who just happened into the perfect situation for himself.

Ah, the old what if scenarios.

Well, since you say it just aint happening, prove it.

If you put Steve Young in Tampa, he aint elite. That much is provable because Young did NOTHING until he joined San Francisco and even then had to wait until Montana exited.

Jim Plunkett didn't do anything until he got out of a then said New England franchise and ended up in Oakland.

Truth be told, you don't have any idea whether Aikman, Elway, Brady or any quarterback would be good if they went to a downtrodden franchise.

You guys got nothing but hypotheticals.

Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't know, Aikman had a great defense and a great running game. I guess this means he wasn't an elite quarterback either. :laugh2:

 

[tyke1doe]

And the point continues to fly past you.

It's no point. It's something you grabbed from the air and think it's a worthy comparison.

Now for facts.

How many comebacks has Jason Campbell led? Give me a number since you offered it.

Now I'll give you mine:

According to profootball reference, Big Ben had 19 reported fourth quarter comebacks, 15 actual.
You know who he is tied with?
Roger Staubach.

You know who's in front of him?

Elway, Favre, Marino, Peyton, Montana, Unitas and Brady. Guess what? The article goes on to say that Roethlisberger could end up having more fourth quarterback comebacks than the rest of those quarterbacks because of his youth.

Yeah, toss out Campbell (who isn't even on the list) as if that's a worthy comparison.

You can't answer the question.

There's no legitimate question to ask. It's like answering the question, "How many angels on a pinhead?"

If Manning goes in there last year and blows out the Cards 34-7, is he not elite because he didn't have a last minute drive at the end?

Here go the "What if" scenarios again. Sorry, buddy, that's not an adequate way to make an argument. Your facts lie in the realm of hypotheticals.

Where was Ben's eliteness the rest of the game when the Steelers were losing?

Where was Montana's eliteness when he came from behind to beat the Cowboys with "The Catch"?
Where was Montana's eliteness when he had to come back at the end to beat the Bengals in the Super Bowl?
Where was Staubach's eliteness when he had to come back from behind with the "Hail Mary"?
Where was Elway's eliteness when he had to drive 99 yards to tie the game against Cleveland in the playoffs?

You can't be serious, can you?

You're basing your scoring system on some weird "he had a drive that won a game" criteria that is just bogus. There are too many variable to winning a football game to decide that the QB can "find a way to win."

Not just "a drive" but "a drive in THE SUPER BOWL!"

I don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but legends are made by performing in the biggest game of the year - The SUPER BOWL.

Furthermore, I've given you facts about Big Ben's come from behind victories. Just go to Profootball-reference for the information. Now, cite me how many drives that won the game Campbell had? Oh, and while you're at it, show me whether any of those drives came during the Super Bowl.

Are you saying Marino sucks or is not one of the best QBs in NFL history? Or that Elway became one of the greatest QBs in NFL history ONLY after he got a running game?

I'm just using your silly argument.

You're criteria is stupidly subjective and based on the rest of the team around them.

No more stupid than your citation of Jason Campbell.

By the way, criteria is plural and It's "your" not "you're". If you're going to suggest I'm in someway doing something stupid, learn to handle the English language, okay?

He has 127 TDs vs 81 INTs. I could almost make the argument he has been detrimental to his team in doing that.

So?

Favre has more interceptions than any quarterback, IIRC. Does that mean he wasn't at one point elite in his career?
Heck, many elite quarterbacks throw interceptions. That's part of the game.

Oh, and I like the way you said you could "almost" make an argument. But you can't because when compared to other quarterbacks, elite ones at that, you'll find Ben is no different. Next.

Furthermore, rating a QB on wins is even dumber than rating baseball pitchers on wins.

So you prefer your elite quarterbacks to throw for a lot of yards but not deliver wins.

Why do you think Aikman is in the Hall of Fame despite pedestrian numbers? Uh, because he's a winner. Do you think Terry Bradshaw would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his four Super Bowl rings?

You can't be this desperate to win an argument?

OMG and you say I am reaching?

No, it's not reaching. It's called properly analyzing data. Even though statistically, an interception is an interception, all interceptions are not equal. You'd understand this if you weren't trying to win an argument making ridiculous points and not paying attention to facts.
Over the course of five games, Tony Romo has thrown two interceptions - both of which richochet off receiver's hands. When evaluating whether Romo is careful with the ball or not, you analyze how the interceptions occurred.

Or did you miss Jaws' analysis of Cutler's interceptions and how 22 of 25 were a result of him throwing into coverage.

Yeah, I'm reaching.

Its both. Pay attention.

I am paying attention. I'm also paying attention to that beautifully thrown ball to Holmes in the end zone. The defense didn't throw that. And Holmes didn't throw it to himself.

Say it a few more times, still won't be true.

And trotting out Jason Campbell as a rebuttal (without facts of course) won't either. :laugh2:

 

[KalEl]

It's no point. It's something you grabbed from the air and think it's a worthy comparison.

Now for facts.

How many comebacks has Jason Campbell led? Give me a number since you offered it.

Now I'll give you mine:

According to profootball reference, Big Ben had 19 reported fourth quarter comebacks, 15 actual.
You know who he is tied with?
Roger Staubach.

You know who's in front of him?

Elway, Favre, Marino, Peyton, Montana, Unitas and Brady. Guess what? The article goes on to say that Roethlisberger could end up having more fourth quarterback comebacks than the rest of those quarterbacks because of his youth.

Yeah, toss out Campbell (who isn't even on the list) as if that's a worthy comparison.




There's no legitimate question to ask. It's like answering the question, "How many angels on a pinhead?"



Here go the "What if" scenarios again. Sorry, buddy, that's not an adequate way to make an argument. Your facts lie in the realm of hypotheticals.



Where was Montana's eliteness when he came from behind to beat the Cowboys with "The Catch"?
Where was Montana's eliteness when he had to come back at the end to beat the Bengals in the Super Bowl?
Where was Staubach's eliteness when he had to come back from behind with the "Hail Mary"?
Where was Elway's eliteness when he had to drive 99 yards to tie the game against Cleveland in the playoffs?

You can't be serious, can you?



Not just "a drive" but "a drive in THE SUPER BOWL!"

I don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but legends are made by performing in the biggest game of the year - The SUPER BOWL.

Furthermore, I've given you facts about Big Ben's come from behind victories. Just go to Profootball-reference for the information. Now, cite me how many drives that won the game Campbell had? Oh, and while you're at it, show me whether any of those drives came during the Super Bowl.




I'm just using your silly argument.



No more stupid than your citation of Jason Campbell.

By the way, criteria is plural and It's "your" not "you're". If you're going to suggest I'm in someway doing something stupid, learn to handle the English language, okay?



So?

Favre has more interceptions than any quarterback, IIRC. Does that mean he wasn't at one point elite in his career?
Heck, many elite quarterbacks throw interceptions. That's part of the game.

Oh, and I like the way you said you could "almost" make an argument. But you can't because when compared to other quarterbacks, elite ones at that, you'll find Ben is no different. Next.



So you prefer your elite quarterbacks to throw for a lot of yards but not deliver wins.

Why do you think Aikman is in the Hall of Fame despite pedestrian numbers? Uh, because he's a winner. Do you think Terry Bradshaw would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his four Super Bowl rings?

You can't be this desperate to win an argument?



No, it's not reaching. It's called properly analyzing data. Even though statistically, an interception is an interception, all interceptions are not equal. You'd understand this if you weren't trying to win an argument making ridiculous points and not paying attention to facts.
Over the course of five games, Tony Romo has thrown two interceptions - both of which richochet off receiver's hands. When evaluating whether Romo is careful with the ball or not, you analyze how the interceptions occurred.

Or did you miss Jaws' analysis of Cutler's interceptions and how 22 of 25 were a result of him throwing into coverage.

Yeah, I'm reaching.



I am paying attention. I'm also paying attention to that beautifully thrown ball to Holmes in the end zone. The defense didn't throw that. And Holmes didn't throw it to himself.






And trotting out Jason Campbell as a rebuttal (without facts of course) won't either. :laugh2:

First, Holmes feet were not down (watch the replay closely only 1 foot drags) and much like the SB against the Seahawks that game was horribly officiated.

Big Ben is a good QB not elite. How many times have you heard any coach from an opposing team say they need to game plan for him? If he's so elite how can D. Dixon come in a play just as well as Ben? If he's so elite why are they out of the playoffs this year? when he had the opportunity to take the team on his shoulders and lead them? TP is the best player and an ELITE player on that team.

I don't think Aikman was elite either. Brady yes, Peyton yes, Montana yes, Elway yes. Maybe if Holmes actually made that catch I could give Ben some more credit. However, I've seen him and Romo live and IMO Romo is by far a better QB.

Ben holds on to the ball far to much looking for the highlight reel play instead of checking down...see the KC, OAK, CLE games for example. Ben's play was not good enough to beat 3 of the worse teams in the league this year. They guy had multiple opportunities to lead 4th Q drives against bad teams this season and fell short each time.

I'm not a homer I do love the Cowboys...I'm just sick of hearing how great Big Ben is...he's a GOOD QB not ELITE...given his youth maybe he can become elite.

 

[stilltheguru]

They have a symbiotic relationship. I am not certain if either would be as good without the other. However, part of me wants to say Reid has helped him more than vice versa though. It is not that shocking since Reid has been able to win with his system with other quarterbacks like Jeff Garcia, A.J. Feeley and Kevin Kolb.

What have they won with A J Feeley or Kolb? For the amount of trash people are talking about Mcnabb we should win quite easily.lol I mean damn. There is trash talk then there is just talking crazy. Alot of crazy statements in this thread, but whatever.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

Now for facts.

How many comebacks has Jason Campbell led? Give me a number since you offered it.

Now I'll give you mine:

According to profootball reference, Big Ben had 19 reported fourth quarter comebacks, 15 actual.
You know who he is tied with?
Roger Staubach.

You know who's in front of him?

Elway, Favre, Marino, Peyton, Montana, Unitas and Brady. Guess what? The article goes on to say that Roethlisberger could end up having more fourth quarterback comebacks than the rest of those quarterbacks because of his youth.

Yeah, toss out Campbell (who isn't even on the list) as if that's a worthy comparison.




There's no legitimate question to ask. It's like answering the question, "How many angels on a pinhead?"



Here go the "What if" scenarios again. Sorry, buddy, that's not an adequate way to make an argument. Your facts lie in the realm of hypotheticals.



Where was Montana's eliteness when he came from behind to beat the Cowboys with "The Catch"?
Where was Montana's eliteness when he had to come back at the end to beat the Bengals in the Super Bowl?
Where was Staubach's eliteness when he had to come back from behind with the "Hail Mary"?
Where was Elway's eliteness when he had to drive 99 yards to tie the game against Cleveland in the playoffs?

You can't be serious, can you?



Not just "a drive" but "a drive in THE SUPER BOWL!"

I don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but legends are made by performing in the biggest game of the year - The SUPER BOWL.

Furthermore, I've given you facts about Big Ben's come from behind victories. Just go to Profootball-reference for the information. Now, cite me how many drives that won the game Campbell had? Oh, and while you're at it, show me whether any of those drives came during the Super Bowl.




I'm just using your silly argument.



No more stupid than your citation of Jason Campbell.

By the way, criteria is plural and It's "your" not "you're". If you're going to suggest I'm in someway doing something stupid, learn to handle the English language, okay?



So?

Favre has more interceptions than any quarterback, IIRC. Does that mean he wasn't at one point elite in his career?
Heck, many elite quarterbacks throw interceptions. That's part of the game.

Oh, and I like the way you said you could "almost" make an argument. But you can't because when compared to other quarterbacks, elite ones at that, you'll find Ben is no different. Next.



So you prefer your elite quarterbacks to throw for a lot of yards but not deliver wins.

Why do you think Aikman is in the Hall of Fame despite pedestrian numbers? Uh, because he's a winner. Do you think Terry Bradshaw would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his four Super Bowl rings?

You can't be this desperate to win an argument?



No, it's not reaching. It's called properly analyzing data. Even though statistically, an interception is an interception, all interceptions are not equal. You'd understand this if you weren't trying to win an argument making ridiculous points and not paying attention to facts.
Over the course of five games, Tony Romo has thrown two interceptions - both of which richochet off receiver's hands. When evaluating whether Romo is careful with the ball or not, you analyze how the interceptions occurred.

Or did you miss Jaws' analysis of Cutler's interceptions and how 22 of 25 were a result of him throwing into coverage.

Yeah, I'm reaching.



I am paying attention. I'm also paying attention to that beautifully thrown ball to Holmes in the end zone. The defense didn't throw that. And Holmes didn't throw it to himself.






And trotting out Jason Campbell as a rebuttal (without facts of course) won't either. :laugh2:

The comeback statistic is too vague to be considered a legit arguement. It includes drives that started in the third quarter and ended in a fourth quarter field goal with like 14:25 to go in the game. How is that so miraculous? That, to me, just means that you weren't doing your job well enough the rest of the game...

Or, if the opponent has the ball, in a tie game, and scores at the end of the third quarter to take the lead on a field goal, and the first drive of the fourth quarter, after a big kickoff return to let's say midfield, I get a big run from my RB down to the 20 and from there we score a TD to take the lead with 13:00 to go in the game, what exactly did I do that was so great? The defense goes out and shuts down the other team for the rest of the game, and probably gets themselves a pick six, and I get credited with a fourth quarter comeback and game winning drive? That stat is meaningless! It is way to subjective to other scenerios that may have played out... Intercetpions by the defense setting the QB up in the redzone and things like that... happens all the time, especially with the defense that he's been playing behind all of his career...

As far as elite status is concerned, look at Big Ben's playoff numbers in general, and tell me that he is elite again! As the games got bigger his QB rating gets worse and worse...

Wildcard round QB rating is 104.9
Divisional round QB rating is 82.2
Conference round QB rating is 93.0
Super Bowl QB rating is 64.1 (with 1 TD and 3 Int)!!! Those are some elite numbers there!!!

You are basically handing him his "elite card" based on one drive in one Super Bowl. Heck, Eli's elite too then! He led a game winning drive in the Super Bowl against an undefeated team!!!


You failed to point out that over HALF of the yardage on that drive was made after a 5 yard pass to Holmes went for 40+ down the sideline, after his defender slipped and was on the ground. Otherwise they are at midfield with under a minute to go...

And as for the beautifully thrown ball, Big Ben, as I stated before, said the after he threw it, he thought it was going to be intercepted. So, the fact that he didn't trust the throw, should tell you that it wasn't as "beautiful" as you think.

 

[tyke1doe]

First, Holmes feet were not down (watch the replay closely only 1 foot drags) and much like the SB against the Seahawks that game was horribly officiated.

Not the old "his feet weren't down" argument.

Does the bulk of your argument involve hypotheticals? No wonder you can't give Big Ben credit. Your arguments come from the realm of hypotheticals.

And, yes, I've watched the replay closely. Holmes got both feet down. Regardless, that was ...

a.) a great throw by Roethlisberger
b.) the refs on the field ruled it a catch
c.) Roethlisberger had to duck and dodge sacks to get the Steelers to that point
d.) he still walks away with a ring.

Big Ben is a good QB not elite. How many times have you heard any coach from an opposing team say they need to game plan for him? If he's so elite how can D. Dixon come in a play just as well as Ben? If he's so elite why are they out of the playoffs this year? when he had the opportunity to take the team on his shoulders and lead them? TP is the best player and an ELITE player on that team.

Let me answer you questions one by one:

1. Didn't the Steelers lose that game with D. Dixon at quarterback? Is Troy Aikman not elite because Steve Walsh won the only game for the Cowboys during their 1-15 season? Cmon. These are weak arguments.

2. Does every elite quarterback make the playoffs? Didn't Staubach sit out of the playoffs a given year? Didn't Elway sit out of the playoffs a given year? And does making the playoffs mean that a quarterback is elite? I guess McNabb is an elite quarterback because the Eagles consistently make the playoffs? I guess Flacco is an elite quarterback because the Ravens made the playoffs. I guess Sanchez is because the Jets ...? Cmon. Don't be ridiculous.

3. You mean a team can have only one elite player? You mean you missed Ben's performance against the Packers, where he threw for 500 yards?

You guys arguments shift back and forth. First, it's Big Ben is benefiting from a great defense. But when that argument doesn't work, it's "Well, why couldn't Big Ben win the game by himself." Make up your mind. Which is it? If the argument is Ben benefits from a great defense, then you can't blame Ben when the defense doesn't stop the Cardinals or the Packers and Ben has to rally the team.

I don't think Aikman was elite either. Brady yes, Peyton yes, Montana yes, Elway yes. Maybe if Holmes actually made that catch I could give Ben some more credit. However, I've seen him and Romo live and IMO Romo is by far a better QB.

You know how silly and contradictory this sounds. Either you or one of your co-horts argued it was Holmes who made the catch and won the game, not Ben. I guess Holmes just threw the ball to himself?
Furthermore, you're making the focus on the catch - NOT THE THROW!!!
An elite quarterback makes great throws. If his receiver doesn't catch it, that's on the receiver. Unless the quarterback is missing his mark frequently, I don't see how you can't credit Ben who made the throw but the receiver failed to make the catch.
Be that as it may, your argument that Holmes didn't make the catch is down right silly. It ignores clear facts and a ruling that is and always will be settled. It's like Vikings fans arguing that Drew Pearson pushed off. Regardless what you think, it wasn't called, DP was awarded the touchdown, Dallas won the game and Staubach is considered a clutch QB because of the play.

Ben holds on to the ball far to much looking for the highlight reel play instead of checking down...see the KC, OAK, CLE games for example. Ben's play was not good enough to beat 3 of the worse teams in the league this year. They guy had multiple opportunities to lead 4th Q drives against bad teams this season and fell short each time.

Okay, so it's Ben's fault when the team doesn't win but when it wins a Super Bowl, it's the defense that gets the credit. Gotcha?

For your information, great quarterbacks sometimes lose to teams they should beat. And if you haven't been paying attention, the Steelers defense and special teams have been atrocious this year. Their cornerbacks didn't register an interception until Week 17.

I'm not a homer I do love the Cowboys...I'm just sick of hearing how great Big Ben is...he's a GOOD QB not ELITE...given his youth maybe he can become elite.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, just because you're sick of hearing it doesn't make it any less true. Ben is an elite quarterback. Anyone who has an ounce of objectivity can see that. Ben is like Aikman. He isn't in a system that primarily favors the quarterback and big numbers. But like Aikman (who I believe was an elite quarterback), when he was called on to produce the big numbers, he did. The fact Dallas/Aikman lost to teams they/he should have beat doesn't detract from an elite quarterback. This is the NFL. Sometimes upsets happen. Not just sometimes, but often. But elite quarterbacks prove, more often than not, when they need to make a play, they can. And they are even more accustomed to winning by making an amazing play that only they can.

Winning is the mark of an elite quarterback. If you and wileedog want a quarterback who racks up numbers, be my guest. But I want a winner. That's the mark of an elite quarterback.