McNabb getting ripped in Philly

[tyke1doe]

The comeback statistic is too vague to be considered a legit arguement. It includes drives that started in the third quarter and ended in a fourth quarter field goal with like 14:25 to go in the game. How is that so miraculous? That, to me, just means that you weren't doing your job well enough the rest of the game...

Or, if the opponent has the ball, in a tie game, and scores at the end of the third quarter to take the lead on a field goal, and the first drive of the fourth quarter, after a big kickoff return to let's say midfield, I get a big run from my RB down to the 20 and from there we score a TD to take the lead with 13:00 to go in the game, what exactly did I do that was so great? The defense goes out and shuts down the other team for the rest of the game, and probably gets themselves a pick six, and I get credited with a fourth quarter comeback and game winning drive? That stat is meaningless! It is way to subjective to other scenerios that may have played out... Intercetpions by the defense setting the QB up in the redzone and things like that... happens all the time, especially with the defense that he's been playing behind all of his career...

As far as elite status is concerned, look at Big Ben's playoff numbers in general, and tell me that he is elite again! As the games got bigger his QB rating gets worse and worse...

Wildcard round QB rating is 104.9
Divisional round QB rating is 82.2
Conference round QB rating is 93.0
Super Bowl QB rating is 64.1 (with 1 TD and 3 Int)!!! Those are some elite numbers there!!!

You are basically handing him his "elite card" based on one drive in one Super Bowl. Heck, Eli's elite too then! He led a game winning drive in the Super Bowl against an undefeated team!!!


You failed to point out that over HALF of the yardage on that drive was made after a 5 yard pass to Holmes went for 40+ down the sideline, after his defender slipped and was on the ground. Otherwise they are at midfield with under a minute to go...

And as for the beautifully thrown ball, Big Ben, as I stated before, said the after he threw it, he thought it was going to be intercepted. So, the fact that he didn't trust the throw, should tell you that it wasn't as "beautiful" as you think.

First, please provide links so I can check your stats.

Second, I guess Tom Brady isn't elite because his drives led to a field goal?
:laugh2: You guys are funny. An elite quarterback gets his team in position to WIN. If the team needs a field goal, so be it. Did you actually think that was a valid argument?

Third, in the link below, it talks about clutch quarterbacks and provide a link to an article that tries to measure fourth-quarter comebacks with some objectivity, ruling out factors such as you suggest to give a truer picture of a clutch performance.

Clutch Quarterbacks

Fourth, so what if Holmes ran 40 yards after a player slipped? Who got him the ball? Do they put asterisks next to Ben's passing yards 21/30 for 256 yards with one touchdown and one interception. (Oh, but 40 came when a defender slipped and Holmes ran 40 yards.)
You guys are ridiculous in your arguments.

Fifth, did I say Ben was elite his second year in the league when he won a Super Bowl? Ben played awful in that game, even though he played very well in the playoffs, given his relative youth. It's funny that Cowboys fans get fighting mad when the media continues to raise Romo's December failures and the bobbled snap as if that now defines him. But when it comes to Big Ben or some other quarterback you hate, it's "well, he threw up in the Super Bowl" or "He was awful in his first Super Bowl; therefore, he's not an elite quarterback."
I guess John Elway and Dan Marino aren't elite quarterbacks because they failed in the Super Bowl their first time.

I wonder if you guys really understand what you're arguing. You're giving ammunition to everyone who criticizes Romo.

Oh, and it is possible to "evolve" into an "elite" quarterback. Few quarterbacks are elite their first few years in the league. Even Peyton wasn't.
So, pulease, stop with the disingenuous look at Big Ben's past as if I argued he was elite once his mother gave birth to him.

He is now an elite quarterback and became one last season.

Oh, I love the "he thought he threw an interception" argument.
Again, you guys deal in hypotheticals. He didn't have his feet in bounds. If the defender didn't fall down, if Big Ben throws an interception like he thought he did ... etc.

Wow. I just hope you're happy when mediots (as you all call them) make up similar excuses if and when Dallas and Tony Romo wins. :laugh1:

Be that as it may, I want a winner. I don't care if he throws an interception here or there, takes a sack because he's trying to extend a play or starts the game off rocky. When I need him to win, if he can do that, that's who I want as my quarterback.

Being able to win in the big games and win consistently should be the mark of an elite quarterback. Big Ben has done that.

BTW, it's interesting that Big Ben haters always point to his first Super Bowl performance as a reason why he's not elite but never point to the AFC Championship Game where he takes it upon himself, offensively, to win the game @ Denver.

Read the stats: Roethlisberger 21/29 275 2 TDs 0 INTS
Rushing: Bettis 15 for 39 1 TD; Parker 14 for 35 0 TDs.

I'm not saying he reached an elite status then. But that bode well for his future. And as many quarterbacks have said, playing in your first Super Bowl can be overwhelming.



P.S. Here's another good story by John Clayton on Big Ben's development as an elite quarterback. This was written last year before the Super Bowl. It addresses the argument that Ben can't win when the game is placed on his shoulders. He can, even though the Steelers prefer a more balanced attack.

Big Ben moving to elite status

 

[Alexander]

No he's not, anymore than Eli Manning is.

Am I reading this right? Manning on the same ground as Roethlisberger?

 

[Alexander]

Are you a Steelers fan...
Get over it...Big Ben is not an elite QB. He's a mediocre QB with a great defense...much like Jim McMahon...:laugh2:

The ignorance here is stunning.

 

[goliadmike]

ummm...I thought this was a thread about Philly ripping Mcnabb?

 

[tyke1doe]

The ignorance here is stunning.

It is isn't it?

Cowboys fans are blinded by their hatred of other teams and players.

Look, I hate the fact that the Steelers won six before we did. But I can acknowledge if a team has a great quarterback. Big Ben is a great quarterback, IMO. Oh, he's no Peyton Manning, but so what? The Steelers don't require him to be.
Elite quarterbacks don't have to necessarily be in a pass-oriented offense. They can be on run-oriented offenses too.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

First, please provide links so I can check your stats.

Second, I guess Tom Brady isn't elite because his drives led to a field goal?
:laugh2: You guys are funny. An elite quarterback gets his team in position to WIN. If the team needs a field goal, so be it. Did you actually think that was a valid argument?

Third, in the link below, it talks about clutch quarterbacks and provide a link to an article that tries to measure fourth-quarter comebacks with some objectivity, ruling out factors such as you suggest to give a truer picture of a clutch performance.

Clutch Quarterbacks

Fourth, so what if Holmes ran 40 yards after a player slipped? Who got him the ball? Do they put asterisks next to Ben's passing yards 21/30 for 256 yards with one touchdown and one interception. (Oh, but 40 came when a defender slipped and Holmes ran 40 yards.)
You guys are ridiculous in your arguments.

Fifth, did I say Ben was elite his second year in the league when he won a Super Bowl? Ben played awful in that game, even though he played very well in the playoffs, given his relative youth. It's funny that Cowboys fans get fighting mad when the media continues to raise Romo's December failures and the bobbled snap as if that now defines him. But when it comes to Big Ben or some other quarterback you hate, it's "well, he threw up in the Super Bowl" or "He was awful in his first Super Bowl; therefore, he's not an elite quarterback."
I guess John Elway and Dan Marino aren't elite quarterbacks because they failed in the Super Bowl their first time.

I wonder if you guys really understand what you're arguing. You're giving ammunition to everyone who criticizes Romo.

Oh, and it is possible to "evolve" into an "elite" quarterback. Few quarterbacks are elite their first few years in the league. Even Peyton wasn't.
So, pulease, stop with the disingenuous look at Big Ben's past as if I argued he was elite once his mother gave birth to him.

He is now an elite quarterback and became one last season.

Oh, I love the "he thought he threw an interception" argument.
Again, you guys deal in hypotheticals. He didn't have his feet in bounds. If the defender didn't fall down, if Big Ben throws an interception like he thought he did ... etc.

Wow. I just hope you're happy when mediots (as you all call them) make up similar excuses if and when Dallas and Tony Romo wins. :laugh1:

P.S. Here's another good story by John Clayton on Big Ben's development as an elite quarterback. This was written last year before the Super Bowl. It addresses the argument that Ben can't win when the game is placed on his shoulders. He can, even though the Steelers prefer a more balanced attack.

Big Ben moving to elite status

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/splits/

The link you requested... scroll to the bottom, where it gives his career playoff stats including his nearly 1:1 TD:Int ratio...

I did not say that because a drive leads to a game winning FG instead of a TD that it doesn't matter. I was stating that there are way more factors that go into a "fourth quarter comeback" than the QB's performance. A simple stat like the one that you threw out there doesn't show the circumstances behind the "comeback." For example, last season's game vs. Dallas. Big Ben is credited with a "fourth quarter comeback" according to profootballreference.com. The Steelers tied the game with a TD to Heath Miller before the two minute warning. Three plays later a Romo pass is intercepted and ran into the endzone. Steelers win. Seems simple, until Big Ben is credited with a fourth quarter comeback and heralded as a hero... He led one scoring drive in the quarter that went for more than 50yds. Yet the team scored 17pts. I'll let you figure out how it all happened, but he did nothing special in that quarter to win the game, the defense did, and again he just rides the coat tails of a defensive TD to victory.

The first link you posted doesn't open, so I can't see what you are referring to.

I'm not dealing in hypotheticals. Just facts. The defender DID fall down. The pass WAS NOT intercepted. And his feet WERE down in the endzone. I am not debating those facts with you. I was simply saying that if the QB himself throws a pass that he is so certain will be intercepted, and has admitted to feeling that way. Wouldn't a FACT be that he more lucky than good in that situation? I would think so... Anytime you throw into triple coverage and are not picked off, you are lucky! I don't care what the situation is or who you are. You are lucky!

Finally, I was not asserting that simply because he had a bad Super Bowl the first time around, and the second for that matter, that is why he is not an elite QB. But as was posted by others, ELITE QB's don't play every game, and have their team miss the playoffs! Brady and Manning are the only two ELITE QB's in the league right now! PERIOD! And it's not even close!

 

[AmericasTeam31]

It is isn't it?

Cowboys fans are blinded by their hatred of other teams and players.

Look, I hate the fact that the Steelers won six before we did. But I can acknowledge if a team has a great quarterback. Big Ben is a great quarterback, IMO. Oh, he's no Peyton Manning, but so what? The Steelers don't require him to be.
Elite quarterbacks don't have to necessarily be in a pass-oriented offense. They can be on run-oriented offenses too.

The fact that he is no Payton Manning is the reason that he may be great but is not among the elite of the game!

The ones on run oriented offenses are called bus drivers! Not ELITE QB's!

 

[TobiasEagle77]

If the Eagles lose, I would be OK with them trying to trade McNabb. I'm still a McNabb fan, but I think Kolb might fit our offense better. Reid would call more runs, because with a consistent QB you can count on picking up 5 yards on 3rd and 4.

Early in his career, McNabb carried the Eagles. Then he fell in love with the big play, and he's just too inconsistent now. I fully believe the Eagles carry him. He used to take what was on the field, or run to get the first down, now it seems he tries to make every play a 50 yarder. He holds the ball way too long sometimes, and is reluctant to settle for a first down.

 

[Disturbed]

Three cheers for McNabb. Here is hoping he is the Cowboys MVP for the upcoming game on Saturday. Throw us the ball McNabb.

 

[Alexander]

It is isn't it?

Cowboys fans are blinded by their hatred of other teams and players.

Look, I hate the fact that the Steelers won six before we did. But I can acknowledge if a team has a great quarterback. Big Ben is a great quarterback, IMO. Oh, he's no Peyton Manning, but so what? The Steelers don't require him to be.
Elite quarterbacks don't have to necessarily be in a pass-oriented offense. They can be on run-oriented offenses too.

I don't put Roethlisberger in the same category as Manning, Brees, Rivers or Brady. He's a hair below that tier in the "pretty good" along with players like Romo (who might graduate if he keeps doing what he's doing right now).

But to compare him to someone like Jim McMahon? Take for example what Roethlisberger did versus the Packers a few weeks ago or what he did to lead his team to a title last year in the Super Bowl with as gutty a drive as I've ever seen. Jim McMahon could not do that if his life depended on it. Roethlisberger does benefit from a good defense. But he's also shown he can take a team on his shoulders and win a game for them when the defense is not dominant. To say he's a caretaker like McMahon is a staggeringly ignorant statement.

 

[Aikbach]

I don't put Roethlisberger in the same category as Manning, Brees, Rivers or Brady. He's a hair below that tier in the "pretty good" along with players like Romo (who might graduate if he keeps doing what he's doing right now).

But to compare him to someone like Jim McMahon? Take for example what Roethlisberger did versus the Packers a few weeks ago or what he did to lead his team to a title last year in the Super Bowl with as gutty a drive as I've ever seen. Jim McMahon could not do that if his life depended on it. Roethlisberger does benefit from a good defense. But he's also shown he can take a team on his shoulders and win a game for them when the defense is not dominant. To say he's a caretaker like McMahon is a staggeringly ignorant statement.

I'm willing to call him Jim Plunkett but nothing more.

the whole point of naming people like Eli Manning, Hostetler, Dilfer and MacMahon or even Humphries, Hasselbeck, Eason, Delhomme is that being in a Super Bowl does not automatically upgrade a good quarterback to the realm of elite.

 

[jterrell]

He missed two big plays. The bomb to Jackson and the deep In by Maclin.

Both would have resulted in big plays and possible TD's.

It would have turned the game around.

Iggles are dangerous. I don't expect them to make the same errors next time around.

I've heard this a lot but it's garbage to be honest.

Big plays are not high percentage plays. Too many variables have to work. McNabb was getting pressured heavily on one throw and was jumpy all day because of the hits he was taking. Deep shots were taken but they were not taken in McNabb's comfort zone because Dallas has zero respect for the Iggles run game.

Philly had two cracks at Dallas thus far and should know by now running DeSean Jackson deep is probably not going to succeed very often. And failed attempts just mean more 3 and out's. 2 points per quarter... that isn't gonna work.

If Philly wants to change the results they better change their attack, the alternative is insanity.

 

[jterrell]

Ben R is an interesting case.

I do not like the guy, I admit that in an effort towards full disclosure and honesty.

Ben R. is one of those guys where you have to consider the entire package not just one stat. His career numbers are solid with a QB rating over 90 and the Super Bowl wins. But in 2008 when he won a SB he had a horrid 80 QB rating. That's a plum mess. Is he clutch? To some extent yes. He has a lot of comeback victories. At the same time he also has the benefit of Troy Polamalu in every playoff season. You don't make the playoffs with an 80 QB rating very often.

On the plus side the guy is probably the hardest guy not named Vince Young to sack in this league. And he does have a swagger and will to win. He is a good player. He is probably not a great player, but he is a great fit for a city that plays in cold weather and has an opportunistic defense.

All in all I'd say he is just below elite. That 6 to 10 area where Tony Romo also resides.

PManning, Brees, Brady, Rivers are the top tier imho.

Romo, McNabb, Roflsberger, Sheli are in that second tier with a couple others.

 

[tyke1doe]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/splits/

The link you requested... scroll to the bottom, where it gives his career playoff stats including his nearly 1:1 TD:Int ratio...

I did not say that because a drive leads to a game winning FG instead of a TD that it doesn't matter. I was stating that there are way more factors that go into a "fourth quarter comeback" than the QB's performance. A simple stat like the one that you threw out there doesn't show the circumstances behind the "comeback." For example, last season's game vs. Dallas. Big Ben is credited with a "fourth quarter comeback" according to profootballreference.com. The Steelers tied the game with a TD to Heath Miller before the two minute warning. Three plays later a Romo pass is intercepted and ran into the endzone. Steelers win. Seems simple, until Big Ben is credited with a fourth quarter comeback and heralded as a hero... He led one scoring drive in the quarter that went for more than 50yds. Yet the team scored 17pts. I'll let you figure out how it all happened, but he did nothing special in that quarter to win the game, the defense did, and again he just rides the coat tails of a defensive TD to victory.

You must not have followed the link. The profootballreference site shifts through the comebacks to determine which were actually comebacks and which ones were not. In fact, the game against Dallas is cited as a comeback (Ben did bring his team back from a 10 point deficit) but NOT a game-winning drive. The writer also separates "recorded" comebacks and "actual" comebacks.

3. There can be a difference between a comeback and game-winning (GW) drive: FOR IT TO BE A COMEBACK, THE OFFENSE MUST OVERCOME A DEFICIT. Trust me; the importance of that statement justifies the usage of the caps lock. Not all comebacks are GW drives, not all GW drives are comebacks. If you never trailed in the 4th quarter, but the game is tied and you lead a drive to win the game, that is a GW drive, not a comeback. I’ll use the reigning champion 2008 Steelers as an example, considering they’re recent and six of their 19 games played were won in this fashion.

Against the Dallas Cowboys, the Steelers trailed 13-3 to start the 4th quarter. They added a FG to cut the deficit to 13-6. Roethlisberger then completed 4 passes for 57 yards and the tying-TD to Heath Miller. On the very next drive, Tony Romo was intercepted by Deshea Townsend for the winning TD in a 20-13 victory.

RESULT – 4th Quarter Comeback, not a game-winning drive.

In Super Bowl 43, the Steelers blew their 20-7 lead and found themselves trailing 23-20 in the final 2:30. Roethlisberger led the historic TD drive, capped off with Holmes’ game-winning catch for a 27-23 victory.

RESULT – 4th Quarter Comeback and game-winning drive.

Even when considering actual comebacks, Big Ben is second only to Tom Brady of current quarterbacks and is behind mostly all-time greats.

Oh, and thanks for the link.
But in researching, I found those stats.

The first link you posted doesn't open, so I can't see what you are referring to.

I'll see if I can find the correct link. I'm typing on a laptop and don't have the capacity to copy and paste as well as I do on my desktop computer.


Here: Quarterback comebacks

I'm not dealing in hypotheticals. Just facts. The defender DID fall down. The pass WAS NOT intercepted. And his feet WERE down in the endzone. I am not debating those facts with you. I was simply saying that if the QB himself throws a pass that he is so certain will be intercepted, and has admitted to feeling that way. Wouldn't a FACT be that he more lucky than good in that situation? I would think so... Anytime you throw into triple coverage and are not picked off, you are lucky! I don't care what the situation is or who you are. You are lucky!

Since when does "luck" not factor into the equation?
You think Peyton didn't benefit from "luck" when Reggie Wayne in the 2007 AFC Championship bobbles a catch that he recovers even though two Patriots were around him? If the Patriots recover that ball, game over, and we're still talking about how Peyton can't get to the big game.
When it's all said and done, it becomes a part of the quarterback's yardage and rating. Besides, as Jimmy Johnson used to say, "You create your own luck."
Unfortunately for Romo, he wasn't lucky when he dropped that snap in Seattle. If he were lucky, we wouldn't have to hear about Romo not being able to win in the playoffs. Such as it is, that's what we have to endure because that's what happened.

Finally, I was not asserting that simply because he had a bad Super Bowl the first time around, and the second for that matter, that is why he is not an elite QB. But as was posted by others, ELITE QB's don't play every game, and have their team miss the playoffs! Brady and Manning are the only two ELITE QB's in the league right now! PERIOD! And it's not even close!

So your argument is that ELITE QB's play every game and their teams make the playoffs? Is that your definition of an elite quarterback?

Oh, by the way, Ben Roethlisberger didn't play every game this year either. Remember the concussion and him having to sit out the Ravens game? Remember, the Steelers lost the game he didn't play. If he had played and the Steelers had won that game, they would have been in the playoffs.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

 

[the kid 05]

In typical Philly fan over-reaction they're once again ready to run this guy out on a rail cause he isn't perfect.

Of course the same could be said for some of the Cowboys fans on these forums as well.

sounds pretty familiar, could have sworn i heard that on this board about a few players...

 

[tyke1doe]

The fact that he is no Payton Manning is the reason that he may be great but is not among the elite of the game!

The ones on run oriented offenses are called bus drivers! Not ELITE QB's!

I disagree. I believe an elite quarterback can reside on a run-oriented offense. Troy Aikman is the perfect example of this. And, yes, I consider Aikman an elite quarterback. I don't knock a quarterback from elite status because he doesn't put up great numbers. Rather, I evaluate them based on what they show they can do if they get to throw the ball and whether they can win. Troy Aikman was a winner. And if he played in an offense like Brady or Manning, I'm sure he'd put up equally impressive numbers, especially given his 500 yards against the top-ranked Packers defense.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sixert]

Can you please expound on why you believe McNabb is an elite QB?

Hate to defend McNabb but football truth is football truth.
His career stats stack up to any QB in this league and once he retires in the history of the NFL.
Just assumming here, but his TD/Interception and probably yards/completion ratio is probably All time Top 5 in history.

Now, I have not verified any stats, just my observations from playing at a high level and watching his career all these years.


That was hard!!! Now lets kick some Eagles ***!!!