Myles Jack...

RS12

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You are making the #1 mistake in drafting. You feel that the Cowboys need to draft a QB, just to draft a QB. Not because they are actually worth the pick. I really hope the Cowboys aren't that stupid and reach for a player that doesn't deserve to be taken at their pick. There is no QB in this draft worth a top 5 pick. If Dallas traded down to 15 then maybe Id listen to a discussion about a QB.

The number one is mistake in building a team is having 21 Myles Jacks surrounded by bad QB play. Dont count on "one read" Bob or hungover Johnny to save you. At some point in time you have bite the bullet and draft and develop a QB. No time like the present.
 

Rogerthat12

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I just want to dive into the numbers for a second for this play making elite athletic talent... He has never once had double digit tackles for a loss. He has 1 total career sack. His four interceptions are pretty impressive, but not off the charts good. His high in tackles for a season is 87. So, in reality, he really isn't making very many splash plays.

Now, what I will say is, he is a physical freak. He is fast and plays without regard for his own safety. He is thick in the trunk and an explosive hitter. He does have great versatility for those reasons.

With that in mind, what every person discussing Jack is doing at this point is projecting his athleticism. For that very fact alone, if not others I have already stated, he projects better as an outside backer.

You mentioned Brugler thinking he can play anywhere. That's a good source and, once again, I have never said he couldn't. I said he is better suited to the outside. Apparently I am not the only one he sees the issues I have mentioned either:

"Jack's ability in coverage make him ideally suited to playing outside in a 4-3 scheme, where his lack of ideal size is mitigated."
WEAKNESSES: Lacks ideal size at linebacker. Does not possess ideal length and can get caught up in the wash.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2079677/myles-jack

"I wouldn't get cute with him. I would stick him at WILL and just let him be a free running chaser. He has the speed to get to everything and his cover talent will set him apart." -- NFC executive

"Jack looks like a perfect fit for a Will (weakside) linebacker in a pro 4-3 defense."
Read more at http://BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1/scoutingreport2016mjack.php#5ILQfydFPUUzIedl.99

Let me repeat, seems it seems to be getting caught in traffic even more than Jack, he can play every position, but is more ideally suited to the weak side.

The fact that you are missing is that certainly Jack can play the WILL but his exceptional and rare talent allows him to play any and all of LB positions and we are talking about how the Cowboys view linebackers in particular, not the general 4-3 population.

Jack is ideally suited to play anywhere, that is what makes him "special". The Cowboys utilize a flex approach under Eberflus when drafting linebackers, Jack fits this perfectly.

Eberflus has specifically indicated they are drafting lbs that can play all 3 positions, he has said this with Hitchens and Wilson.

Jack has way more ability than these two and easily fits this mold besides the fact that he is elite.

Your walter football article cited below indicates "It was crystal clear that he possessed rare speed and athleticism." In either system, Jack should be a three-down starter and difference-maker.


Let us explore the link you provided to support your perspective:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2079677/myles-jack

The same analysis states the following:

Even on a team full of NFL prospects, Jack's pure athleticism stands out. Compactly-built with good overall musculature, light feet, a fluid turning motion and natural ball-skills, he could make the full-time switch to running back and earn early-round consideration. Given his impact ability on defense, however, teams may hesitate to do that.

Jack's burst and agility make him an effective edge rusher and he doesn't shy from contact. He shows an explosive pop on contact to break free from would-be blockers. The hand-eye coordination that makes him so effective in breaking up passes shows up in his tackling, as well, as Jack is consistently able to trip up smaller, quicker ballcarriers. Breaks down well and wraps securely for the reliable take-down with little to no yardage allowed after contact.

IN OUR VIEW: Out of this game due to a knee injury suffered in September which required season-ending surgery, Jack nonetheless projects as a top 15 pick, boasting perhaps the country's-best combination of instincts and athleticism. Unprecedented as the Pac-12 Offensive and Defensive Freshman of the Year in 2013, Jack has the vision, agility and speed to star at running back if he wanted to return to that position but is even more valuable on the defensive side of the ball, where he's a true three-down linebacker and future Pro Bowler.

Apparently they see his explosiveness as do all the other evaluators, no one says he can not play the WILL, we are saying he can play them all.

I personally want the best athleticism and instinct for a LB, that can play all three lb spots and in their estimation is a Future Pro-Bowler.

Josh Norris:


1. UCLA LB Myles Jack


Where He Wins: The complete package at the position, and a complete linebacker is as valuable as it has ever been. Jack’s movements are uncommon. His lower half swivels when adjusting to what is in front of him, and his first steps are explosive and springy, quickly eating up ground to make a play others cannot. Jack is equally as aggressive between the tackles as he is in coverage. At UCLA, he was even asked to play opposite receivers and did not look out of place in coverage. Jack is a foundation piece to build with and around.

Brugler:

Special and unique instincts, elite athleticism and contact balance. Play maker! In his top 6 prospects.

Jeremiah:

RANK

3

2555329.jpg

Myles Jack - LB, UCLA


Jack has started 29 games in three years for the Bruins. His 2015 campaign was cut short due to a knee injury. This is an explosive playmaker with a unique skill set. He lines up all over the field on defense, including inside linebacker, outside linebacker and nickel cornerback. Against the run, he has the quickness to shoot gaps as well as the strength to play off blocks. He has a violent punch to take on and separate from blockers and he's quick to locate and close on the ball. He's at his best in pass coverage, where he can mirror tight ends, running backs and even wide receivers. There are games where he covers in the slot and he makes it look easy. He has also carried the ball on offense and he has NFL starting ability at running back as well. He has vision, balance and an explosive burst with the ball in his hands. Overall, Jack has tremendous value because of his ability to dominate at multiple positions.

Kiper:

He's a special talent, Jack isn't your classic downhill run-stuffer -- the guy can flat-out cover, and he epitomizes what teams need at least one of in 2016.

Rob Rang:

This club is clearly more talented than the others selecting in the top five and owner Jerry Jones might be tempted to add an immediate impact defender like Jack rather than select a quarterback to groom behind the 35-year old (and increasingly injury-prone) Tony Romo. Jack suffered a serious knee injury Sept. 23 but if teams are satisfied with his rehabilitation he'll draw top five consideration. Voted the Pac-12's Offensive and Defensive Freshman of the Year in 2013 while moonlighting at running back and starring at outside linebacker, Jack has the playmaking pedigree Jones loves.

Bucky Brooks:

New-school linebacker with superb playmaking skills to the mix.


The common theme is versatility, instinct, play maker, explosive, special and potential Future Pro Bowler, yes, this is the type of player and LB I want on my team.

I do not view Jack in the mold of the traditional, narrow view of projection when the Cowboys do not view their LB's this way.

We may just have to disagree, much like others do not see the explosiveness and a play making ability with Bosa, you see something else, so do I with reference to Jack.
 
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BAT

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The number one is mistake in building a team is having 21 Myles Jacks surrounded by bad QB play. Dont count on "one read" Bob or hungover Johnny to save you. At some point in time you have bite the bullet and draft and develop a QB. No time like the present.

Why not develop One Read Bob or Hungover Johnny? Both were more productive in college than any of the QBs in this draft. Not only more passing yards and recognition but both also winners AND better athletes. Both guys are also still relatively young so can sit and learn behind Romo.

Like Wentz he's a winner but not more touted or pedigreed than either RG3 or Johnny Football. Both guys are significantly more electric. More so, if Romo goes down next season for any reason, either of these guys has a much better chance to win game than a rook.
 

RS12

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Why not develop One Read Bob or Hungover Johnny? Both were more productive in college than any of the QBs in this draft. Not only more passing yards and recognition but both also winners AND better athletes. Both guys are also still relatively young so can sit and learn behind Romo.

I dont honestly see this coaching staff developing anyone, particularly two guys with tons of baggage. Any developing would have to be mostly done by Romo, and I see a rookie more receptive to that than the two washouts.
 

btcutter

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Why not develop One Read Bob or Hungover Johnny? Both were more productive in college than any of the QBs in this draft. Not only more passing yards and recognition but both also winners AND better athletes. Both guys are also still relatively young so can sit and learn behind Romo.

Like Wentz he's a winner but not more touted or pedigreed than either RG3 or Johnny Football. Both guys are significantly more electric. More so, if Romo goes down next season for any reason, either of these guys has a much better chance to win game than a rook.

You can't be serious about Johnny Football. The guy is a knuckle head ala Ryan Leaf. All he does is cause distractions in Dallas and last thing we need in Dallas is a circus.
Last few time RG III played he look like a deer in headlight. Completely shell shocked. Maybe he is salvageable but I am not banking my franchise on him. I actually have little more faith in Moore playing 2-3 games than RG III. Forget pedigree....once you are in the NFL you are now all the same to me.... can or can't play.
 

texbumthelife

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The fact that you are missing is that certainly Jack can play the WILL but his exceptional and rare talent allows him to play any and all of LB positions and we are talking about how the Cowboys view linebackers in particular, not the general 4-3 population.






Where He Wins: The complete package at the position, and a complete linebacker is as valuable as it has ever been. Jack’s movements are uncommon. His lower half swivels when adjusting to what is in front of him, and his first steps are explosive and springy, quickly eating up ground to make a play others cannot. Jack is equally as aggressive between the tackles as he is in coverage. At UCLA, he was even asked to play opposite receivers and did not look out of place in coverage. Jack is a foundation piece to build with and around.

Brugler:

Special and unique instincts, elite athleticism and contact balance. Play maker! In his top 6 prospects.

Jeremiah:

RANK

3

2555329.jpg

Myles Jack - LB, UCLA


Jack has started 29 games in three years for the Bruins. His 2015 campaign was cut short due to a knee injury. This is an explosive playmaker with a unique skill set. He lines up all over the field on defense, including inside linebacker, outside linebacker and nickel cornerback. Against the run, he has the quickness to shoot gaps as well as the strength to play off blocks. He has a violent punch to take on and separate from blockers and he's quick to locate and close on the ball. He's at his best in pass coverage, where he can mirror tight ends, running backs and even wide receivers. There are games where he covers in the slot and he makes it look easy. He has also carried the ball on offense and he has NFL starting ability at running back as well. He has vision, balance and an explosive burst with the ball in his hands. Overall, Jack has tremendous value because of his ability to dominate at multiple positions.

Kiper:

He's a special talent, Jack isn't your classic downhill run-stuffer -- the guy can flat-out cover, and he epitomizes what teams need at least one of in 2016.

Rob Rang:

This club is clearly more talented than the others selecting in the top five and owner Jerry Jones might be tempted to add an immediate impact defender like Jack rather than select a quarterback to groom behind the 35-year old (and increasingly injury-prone) Tony Romo. Jack suffered a serious knee injury Sept. 23 but if teams are satisfied with his rehabilitation he'll draw top five consideration. Voted the Pac-12's Offensive and Defensive Freshman of the Year in 2013 while moonlighting at running back and starring at outside linebacker, Jack has the playmaking pedigree Jones loves.

Bucky Brooks:

New-school linebacker with superb playmaking skills to the mix.


The common theme is versatility, instinct, play maker, explosive, special and potential Future Pro Bowler, yes, this is the type of player and LB I want on my team.

I do not view Jack in the mold of the traditional, narrow view of projection when the Cowboys do not view their LB's this way.

We may just have to disagree, much like others do not see the explosiveness and a play making ability with Bosa, you see something else, so do I with reference to Jack.

Ok, I shouldn't even respond to this post because you're clearly not reading mine. For instance the part where I repeatedly said what a remarkable athlete Jack is. Or the part where I, once again repeatedly, said he could play anywhere.

Now, what I will say is, he is a physical freak. He is fast and plays without regard for his own safety. He is thick in the trunk and an explosive hitter. He does have great versatility for those reasons.

I am not saying he can't play in the middle, I am saying for him and for us, it wouldn't be optimal.

Those are both quotes. By me. In this thread. Let alone what I have stated in the numerous other Myles Jack threads.

Let me repeat something else, hoping you read it this time:

With that in mind, what every person discussing Jack is doing at this point is projecting his athleticism. For that very fact alone, if not others I have already stated, he projects better as an outside backer.

Every part you just highlighted and the comments you made echo this ^^^ exactly.

If you can't at the very least say Jack isn't more suited for the weak side, then you're not here to have an honesty discussion. You're here to say "I'm right, you're wrong because I said so." Every single article, scout and anything else you want to pull up is saying the same thing. Just because a guy CAN play somewhere, does not mean that's his best and most optimal position.

You can make your "this is the new NFL" argument all you want. The fact of the matter is, the tape doesn't lie. Jack gets washed out and engulfed by offensive linemen. It's the main reason he doesn't have very good TFL or sack numbers. He should be in a position where he has more freedom to roam and use his athleticism. Will he still make plays? Of course. Wouldn't you rather he be in a position where he plays to his strengths and away from his weaknesses though? <- This is the only point I have been trying to make. I have never once said Jack couldn't do anything.

Greg Hardy can play defensive tackle. He can even play it pretty well. He is (when at his best) an unstoppable force from the DE position though. Wouldn't you rather he play there than DT?
 
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texbumthelife

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If Lee can play ILB for Dallas there's ZERO doubt Jack can.

Remember that most tapes are in his fresh and sophomore years. For those who watched him play this year we noticed his bulk and physicality. He's growing into a man.

Hence Lee played weak side this year and looked better than he has in quite a while.
 

btcutter

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Hence Lee played weak side this year and looked better than he has in quite a while.

Lee looked great as our MLB. Just that his body can't handle the punishment. I believe Jacks can but that's an opinion. I am also in the camp that we need a BIG boy as 1 technique to free up our MLB as well. We don't play 3-4. Ideally our DTs eat up the blocks and let LBs clean up.
 

texbumthelife

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Lee looked great as our MLB. Just that his body can't handle the punishment. I believe Jacks can but that's an opinion. I am also in the camp that we need a BIG boy as 1 technique to free up our MLB as well. We don't play 3-4. Ideally our DTs eat up the blocks and let LBs clean up.

Adding a true 1T changes the dynamic of this defense greatly, and changes the argument. However, Monte Kiffin defenses have never had great production from the MLB because he doesn't ask DT's to eat blocks, he asks them to get upfield. Lee might have looked the best he ever has this year. He was a homing missile and made more tackles for a loss this year than I remember him ever making. He had his most tackles ever this season, by far, even in comparison to 2011 when he actually played one more game than his did this season. He also had his first 2.5 sacks ever, as hard as that is to believe (I had to look several places to make sure).

Miles Jack would be absolutely phenomenal as the weakside linebacker in this defense. I wouldn't question the move at all if we didn't have Lee. That's not the reality though. We can draft him and plug him into the middle and I am sure he'd perform admirably. Once Sean Lee is gone, he could slide over and be a force. I just think if that's the plan, there are other defensive players available that would make a more definite and immediate impact at their natural position, that will be available at 4.

Let me also say, as I have said in several other threads, I wouldn't be upset at all if the team drafted Jack.
 

Rogerthat12

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Ok, I shouldn't even respond to this post because you're clearly not reading mine. For instance the part where I repeatedly said what a remarkable athlete Jack is. Or the part where I, once again repeatedly, said he could play anywhere.





Those are both quotes. By me. In this thread. Let alone what I have stated in the numerous other Myles Jack threads.

Let me repeat something else, hoping you read it this time:



Every part you just highlighted and the comments you made echo this ^^^ exactly.

If you can't at the very least say Jack isn't more suited for the weak side, then you're not here to have an honesty discussion. You're here to say "I'm right, you're wrong because I said so." Every single article, scout and anything else you want to pull up is saying the same thing. Just because a guy CAN play somewhere, does not mean that's his best and most optimal position.

You can make your "this is the new NFL" argument all you want. The fact of the matter is, the tape doesn't lie. Jack gets washed out and engulfed by offensive linemen. It's the main reason he doesn't have very good TFL or sack numbers. He should be in a position where he has more freedom to roam and use his athleticism. Will he still make plays? Of course. Wouldn't you rather he be in a position where he plays to his strengths and away from his weaknesses though? <- This is the only point I have been trying to make. I have never once said Jack couldn't do anything.

Greg Hardy can play defensive tackle. He can even play it pretty well. He is (when at his best) an unstoppable force from the DE position though. Wouldn't you rather he play there than DT?

I am reading your comments just fine but what all of the evaluators are saying overall is that Jack is a "special" talent with rare athleticism, instinct and versatility.

What is being said is he is not just a WILL but transcends the fixed category due to his elite skill set.

Many are calling him the best and most talented defender in the entire draft, that makes an immediate impact not just at the WILL position but anywhere he lines up.

The evaluators are all saying he can play multiple positions, he did so in college often and was successful at all of them accordingly.

You are essentially providing the base level narrative for MLB and WILL prototype categorical positions that do not always correspond to players with elite athletic ability and with reference to a team and coach that prefers athletic and explosive linebackers who can play all three positions.

Context matters here and that is where the issue of disagreement is fundamentally.

We are also talking about a team with a WILL lb that has trouble staying healthy as an additional truth.

We are in a discussion about his fit in Dallas and they have a linebackers coach that covets athletic linebackers with instinct that play all three spots, not just one, regardless of traditional projection.

This player is a play maker wherever he lines up, an impact player with instincts, that is what this team needs.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one!

That would be like those that are saying Bosa lacks elite pass rushing skills, explosiveness and has a lack of elite bend and thus projects as a base LDE which we already have in Lawrence?

When we can draft a pass rusher for RDE with elite, explosive burst off the edge?

Or does Bosa have more than that and athleticism and skill that transcends these categories which have made him considered a top 5 talent?
 
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texbumthelife

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I am reading your comments just fine but what all of the evaluators are saying overall is that Jack is a "special" talent with rare athleticism, instinct and versatility.

And I have agreed with that. I haven't argued it once.
What is being said is he is not just a WILL but transcends the fixed category due to his elite skill set.

I have never said he was just a WILL. I have simply said it's his best position.
Many are calling him the best and most talented defender in the entire draft, that makes an immediate impact not just at the WILL position but anywhere he lines up.

You'll have to link me to an article saying he's the best defender in the draft. I haven't read that once. People are saying he is the best athlete and may have the most upside. I haven't read "best defender in the draft" once.
The evaluators are all saying he can play multiple positions, he did so in college often and was successful at all of them accordingly.

Once again, I am not arguing he can't. I am saying WILL is/was his best position. He can play running back too. Would you want to move him there?
You are essentially providing the base level narrative for MLB and WILL prototype categorical positions that do not always correspond to players with elite athletic ability and with reference to a team and coach that prefers athletic and explosive linebackers who can play all three positions.

No, what I am doing and have done is actually watch every shred of tape I can get on the guy for weeks now and basing my analysis on that. He frequently gets engulfed by offensive linemen. Because of that he gets washed out quite a bit. He will try to run around blocks and create bad, awkward angles and take himself out of plays. He is best when he has the room to operate and explode. I AM NOT SAYING HE CAN'T PLAY MIKE.
Context matters here and that is where the issue of disagreement is fundamentally.

No, the issue at the moment is in your head because you're making up an argument that I haven't once tried to establish. He can play every position. I have said it numerous times.
We are also talking about a team with a WILL lb that has trouble staying healthy as an additional truth.

Which I also addressed. A couple posts ago.
We are in a discussion about his fit in Dallas and they have a linebackers coach that covets athletic linebackers with instinct that play all three spots, not just one, regardless of traditional projection.

We don't have a single linebacker on this team that can/would/will play all three spots. McClain is purely an inside guy. He doesn't have the speed to play outside. Lee can play anywhere on the damn defense as long as he's healthy. Hell, he could be our SS.

I know what Eberfluss likes and covets. I've been doing these breakdowns for two decades. I am up to speed. I am sure Eberfluss is enamored with Myles Jack. I guarantee he sees the potential. I can also guarantee you, in a perfect world, he would put Jack at WLB.
This player is a play maker wherever he lines up, an impact player with instincts, that is what this team needs.

I am not saying I disagree with this, but what are you basing it on? In his career at UCLA he never had double digit TFL. He has one career sack.His high in tackles was 87. Those aren't bad numbers perse, but they don't scream "impact player with instincts". They say tremendous athlete with through the roof potential.
We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one!

We can do that, as long as you realize half of your argument is out of thin air. The one where I somewhere said he can't play MIKE.

How did/do you feel about Jaylon Smith?
 

Rogerthat12

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And I have agreed with that. I haven't argued it once.

I have never said he was just a WILL. I have simply said it's his best position.

You'll have to link me to an article saying he's the best defender in the draft. I haven't read that once. People are saying he is the best athlete and may have the most upside. I haven't read "best defender in the draft" once.

Once again, I am not arguing he can't. I am saying WILL is/was his best position. He can play running back too. Would you want to move him there?

No, what I am doing and have done is actually watch every shred of tape I can get on the guy for weeks now and basing my analysis on that. He frequently gets engulfed by offensive linemen. Because of that he gets washed out quite a bit. He will try to run around block and create back, awkward angles and take himself out of plays. He is best when he has the room to operate and explode. I AM NOT SAYING HE CAN'T PLAY MIKE.

No, the issue at the moment is in your head because you're making up an argument that I haven't once tried to establish. He can play every position. I have said it numerous times.

Which I also addressed. A couple posts ago.

We don't have a single linebacker on this team that can/would/will play all three spots. McClain is purely an inside guy. He doesn't have the speed to play outside. Lee can play anywhere on the damn defense as long as he's healthy. Hell, he could be our SS.

I know what Eberfluss likes and covets. I've been doing these breakdowns for two decades. I am up to speed. I am sure Eberfluss is enamored with Myles Jack. I guarantee he sees the potential. I can also guarantee you, in a perfect world, he would put Jack at WLB.

I am not saying I disagree with this, but what are you basing it on? In his career at UCLA he never had double digit TFL. He has one career sack.His high in tackles was 87. Those aren't bad numbers perse, but they don't scream "impact player with instincts". They say tremendous athlete with through the roof potential.

We can do that, as long as you realize half of your argument is out of thin air. The one where I somewhere said he can't play MIKE.

How did/do you feel about Jaylon Smith?

According to Eberflus, Hitchens and Wilson can play all three LB positions so you can take it up with Eberflus.

McClain is a free agent and definitely is limited by size and does fall into the traditional mold.

You argument was that he best fits WILL in your opinion but your opinion is limited and oozes of a traditional understanding of the evolving NFL linebacker.

Further, since we both agree Jack is elite, a play maker with instincts and explosiveness and that he can play the MIKE then we are done here on the subject.

I simply disagree with your limited projection due to his elite skill set and based upon how the Cowboys look at linebackers, context matters in this case!

I am basing it off not only watching tape of Jack as well but also looking at his actual ability as demonstrated at multiple positions on the field.

All of the evaluators see the same play maker all over the field, with several mocking Jack to Dallas specifically knowing Sean Lee was moved to the will, why would they ever do that?

Jack may project WILL on another team but on our team, say if we were to keep Sean Lee at WILL which he plays well at then certainly having Jack next to Lee would be awesome!

Further, I do understand what types of linebackers that Eberflus is looking for and he certainly rejects your narrow perspective on the LB position including in relation to Hitchens and Wilson.

We are looking for play makers, elite talent and Jack certainly has these qualities even if you do not see MLB as his best fit, you have a right to your opinion just like others view Bosa as simply being a base, run stopping LDE on the next level.
 

Rogerthat12

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Let me also throw in this, none of this really matters, because as much as teams spread it out now, we rarely see three linebackers on the field together and if we go nickel, Jack and Lee would be an insane combo.

Hence my entire point!
 

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