NBA Playoffs thread

Manwiththeplan

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I agree and yet, he'll still get criticized for that. He drives, penetrates, kicks it out to the wing man for a wide open 3. If he the shot is made, awesome decision. If the shot is missed, LeBron flaked and should of taken the layup with 3 guys draped all over him. It's insane. His decision making skills have improved BIG time, but he won't get a lot of credit for it.

The truth is......people don't like it when someone is head and shoulders above everyone in skill. The older generation of basketball fans (grew up watching in the 60s and 70s) didn't like Michael Jordan anymore than next generation (grew up waching in the 80s and 90s) liked Kobe or Lebron. And granted Lebron has done a lot to make himself more disliked, like "the decision" and a lot of overall ****** moves, which isreally the only reason people like Kobe now, but the bottom line is, he's hated because he's that good.
 

Jenky

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The truth is......people don't like it when someone is head and shoulders above everyone in skill. The older generation of basketball fans (grew up watching in the 60s and 70s) didn't like Michael Jordan anymore than next generation (grew up waching in the 80s and 90s) liked Kobe or Lebron. And granted Lebron has done a lot to make himself more disliked, like "the decision" and a lot of overall ****** moves, which isreally the only reason people like Kobe now, but the bottom line is, he's hated because he's that good.

Most liked = most hated. Even Jordan went through this.
 

Manwiththeplan

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FWIW, I really don't make Lebron vs Jordan comparisons. Lebron hasn't done enough and it's a bit too early in his career to compare him without using too many "what ifs" and other conjecture, but if he wins a third title, I can say that he definatley surpasses Kobe as the best wing player since Jordan. And it would be an interesting argument for best overall player since Jordan, between Lebron, Shaq and Duncan.

ESPN is already making the Lebron vs Bird comparisons, which imo is valid, but I can't say he has done enough to compare to MJ or Magic quite yet.
 

65fastback2plus2

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I just dont get all the Lebron hate. IMO its like all the Romo hate.

What has either, or more specifically, what has Lebron done to have so many hate him? Is it just because he's good and doesnt play for your team?

Arrogance.

"We're not going to win just 3 championships, or 4 or 5 or 6..."

and

“All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point.”
 

khiladi

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I think people need to understand the context of the game. In 1986 for example, when Jordan came off his foot injury, missing close to seventy a game, to lead his team to the playoffs, he scored 49 and 63 respectively against one of the all-time great Celtics team with Bird in his prime. That 63 point game went to double-overtime. The kicker is this. In neither of those two games did Jordan shoot a single three-pointer. If you look at the states, by the time Jordan retired a SECOND time, the number of three-pointers shot per game was between nine and ten. In that decade, it averaged probably around six with the 86 numbers, around 3 or 4. This year, the three-point average per game is now at 21 attempts per game.

After the first year Jordan retired, the NBA implemented the rules which eliminated hand-checking. After his second-retirement, hand chucking and in 2001, the defensive three-second rule was implemented.

What you are talking about is a league now that facilitates guard play. Spacing is at an all-time high.
 

khiladi

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I actually think Lebron's play in last years finals has been over-rated, but this year he is putting his stamp on it.

Against the Spurs, he averaged under twenty three times when Kawhi was defending him. A lot of commentators were pointing out his struggles and his inability to hit the open jumper. Popovich was guarding him differently than these finals, having his defenders go underneath the screens. In game 4, that 30+ point game in which he led the team in scoring, nine of those points came in the final 4 minutes, when he was inserted in the line-up at around the six minute mark. By that time, Wade had already broke the lead to 11 or 13, scoring 8 points and dishing out an assist in a two minute span. By the time Lebron came in, Popovich conceded the game and rested all his starters. Game six, in the final 2-3 minutes before overtime, Lebron had two crucial TOs and was like 1-3 and bricked two threes, before Ray Allen made that ridiculous 3. In overtime, he had another TO and was 1-3 and the call on Green when Lebron lost the ball on the drive before Manu took the 'three steps' was absurd.

Game 7 was the game Lebron made his real mark last year. Right now, he's continuing that game 7 play as opposed to the first six. He's in a different zone in the third period particularly.
 

khiladi

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I think the biggest mistake right now is the style the Spurs are playing as far as it concerns defending Miami. These play-offs they pushed the tempo and are trying to out-score all their opponents. To me, Parker looks exhausted in these Finals, particularly crunch time.

Additionally, it is playing into the hands of Lebron who feasts on an up-tempo game, because in transition with his size and speed, nobody can stop him. He got it going precisely because of being in the paint at the beginning. He just kept attacking and getting into the paint. Pop should go back to how he defended Lebron last year, making him look for the jumpers first.
 

khiladi

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Or more specifically the continual defenders of Jordan always saying Lebron isnt as good as Michael? As if they repeat it enough they might even convince themselves its actually true.

He isn't... Not even close...
 

Manwiththeplan

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Arrogance.

"We're not going to win just 3 championships, or 4 or 5 or 6..."

Obviously he was exaggerating, besides, he didn't say that. He said he came to Miami to win not 2, not 3, not 4, ect. Which is the truth, he didn't do it to win one or two and be satisfied, he did it to win as many as he can.

“All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point.”

This was obviously an ill advised statement. Only thing I will say to defend this, is I would likely respond the same way if I were to be bombarded by the amount of hate he is (has anyone ever burned you in effigy on live TV?) and suffered a rather humiliating defeat.
 

Manwiththeplan

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He isn't... Not even close...

honestly, with the way the NBA is looking, there's no reason to believe Lebron won't be able to keep winning, which is the main reason Jordan is viewed the way he is. While Magic ended up with 5 championships, there were a lot of really good teams that slowed them down. In the 90s, there was nobody to really challenge the Bulls. The Pistons, Lakers and Celtics all aged out and Jordan was just better than all his "rivals," whether it was Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Robinson, Reggie or Hakeem. Even in the 2000s, you had the Lakers and Spurs who from 1999-2004, ended each other's season 5 times. Unless OKC makes a move to add another player, I don't see anyone being good enough to beat Miami in 7 games next year as well. Even with Wade declining, Chris Bosh likely has too many good years left for them to at least not make the finals in the east.
 

khiladi

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honestly, with the way the NBA is looking, there's no reason to believe Lebron won't be able to keep winning, which is the main reason Jordan is viewed the way he is. While Magic ended up with 5 championships, there were a lot of really good teams that slowed them down. In the 90s, there was nobody to really challenge the Bulls. The Pistons, Lakers and Celtics all aged out and Jordan was just better than all his "rivals," whether it was Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Robinson, Reggie or Hakeem. Even in the 2000s, you had the Lakers and Spurs who from 1999-2004, ended each other's season 5 times. Unless OKC makes a move to add another player, I don't see anyone being good enough to beat Miami in 7 games next year as well. Even with Wade declining, Chris Bosh likely has too many good years left for them to at least not make the finals in the east.

1. First of all, Jordan retired and came back to win three more. Two of his prime years were gone. Even Payton said he was 'easier' to guard when he came back, but he still won three. He rose and stayed on top. Lebron on the other lost after Cleveland after getting swept, both to the Celtics and Orlando. He clearly saw the writing on the wall. And the argument that the organization did nothing is not really sustained, simply by the fact that both season before he left Cleveland they were the number one team with over 60 plus wins. If Lebron made the finals and lost both those years one could argue the case, but he lost both times in the Eastern conference.
2. Second, if you actually look at Lebron's stats, his numbers drop when the play-offs come around. For example, 27 points a game average is below his regular season average. These are actual realities that people simply ignore, and they choose to go after obscure stats. Jordan's rises in play-offs and hits it's peak the finals. The NBA final averages aren't even close.
3. Jordan played top teams, with established HoF in their prime, including Stockton and Malone and a Seattle team with Payton, a HoF PG, Kemp and guys like Schrempf and McMillan. They were definitely not cake-walk teams. Seattle beat a whole bunch of stack teams and their defense was absolutely phenomenal that year. The Blazers were not cake-walks either, breezing through their play-off runs. Plus, Jordan beat the defending champion Pistons at their peak.
4. If you take stats like 45 points per game in the playoffs, Jordan had in five what Lebron has his whole career, in this era. he has 7, along with Iverson. Wilt is at number 2 with 8 and Jordan is at 25 games with those numbers.
5. If one argues that Jordan had a cake-walk, Lebron has had it way easier. In a league that Lebron took his Cleveland team to the finals, people ignore the fact that both Dwight and Allen Iverson carried their teams to the finals in a pathetic Eastern conference. In fact, Howard, whose offensive game is utterly lacking and is an absolute nut-case, beat the 60 plus win team of Lebron. Allen Iverson's second leading scorer scored less than both Lebron's second and third leading scorer. This year, Lebron played the Bobcats essentially without Al Jefferson, meaning the worst team in the league a year prior, an aging Nets teams without Brook Lopez and a utterly-overrated Pacers team with a Center shooting multiple zero and 2 point games this playoffs. The West batters and bruises itself until it reaches the team. Plus, Jordan only played in one game seven in any of his championship runs, while it's a trademark of the Heat team.
6. This is without even taking into account stats like seven game series where the league has extended the number of games, giving more chances for things like play-off points.
7. If you look at Lebron's championship stats from 26-29 and compare them to Jordan's in the playoffs his first three championships, it's not even close. Jordan for example has 8 PPG more than him, beats Lebron in steals and assists, and the only thing Lebron bests him in rebounds by an insignificant margin and three point shooting, the latter only because he took way more. And as I said before, 3 point shooting has changed dramatically.

It's just the reality that rules were changed to create more Jordans. Hand-checking is the single-biggest advantage a defender had against an offensive player, directing that player to a direction one wanted to go. What your talking about is a totally different game. You have 3 point shooters hanging out in the corners nowadays creating all this space. Grant was not joking when he said Jordan could average 40.
 

khiladi

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Jordan also has led the league 3 times in Steals, Lebron not even once. There are 4-5 players to average 200-100 steals and blocks in a season, Jordan being among them. Lebron has never done it. The only person to ever do it TWICE was Jordan. Jordan won defensive MVP once in his career and Lebron has not. Lebron's record of triple-doubles in a regular season is 7. The year Jordan played point guard for a stretch, he had 10 triple doubles in eleven games and that final game against Magic at his prime, he had 40 plus points, over ten rebounds and like 8 assists. In fact, Jordan averages I believe more blocks than Lebron did.

The idea that Lebron simply has a better all around game is another issue of dispute. He is the most unique player for his size essentially playing a guard position, but that is different than saying he is Jordan.
 

casmith07

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Arrogance.

"We're not going to win just 3 championships, or 4 or 5 or 6..."

At a pep rally. For the fans. You know, to get them excited?

“All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point.”

No excuse for that one. That was villain LeBron.

That was, however, 4 years ago, basically. People need to get the **** over it.
 

casmith07

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I think the biggest mistake right now is the style the Spurs are playing as far as it concerns defending Miami. These play-offs they pushed the tempo and are trying to out-score all their opponents. To me, Parker looks exhausted in these Finals, particularly crunch time.

Additionally, it is playing into the hands of Lebron who feasts on an up-tempo game, because in transition with his size and speed, nobody can stop him. He got it going precisely because of being in the paint at the beginning. He just kept attacking and getting into the paint. Pop should go back to how he defended Lebron last year, making him look for the jumpers first.

He made LeBron look for jumpers in the 3rd quarter, and that didn't exactly work out well for them.

Pop has went out and basically said he's not going to double team LeBron, which I think is a mistake. The only other consistent shooter out there is Chris Bosh, and perhaps Ray Allen, but Shuttlesworth isn't seeing starter's minutes.
 

casmith07

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FWIW, I really don't make Lebron vs Jordan comparisons. Lebron hasn't done enough and it's a bit too early in his career to compare him without using too many "what ifs" and other conjecture, but if he wins a third title, I can say that he definatley surpasses Kobe as the best wing player since Jordan. And it would be an interesting argument for best overall player since Jordan, between Lebron, Shaq and Duncan.

ESPN is already making the Lebron vs Bird comparisons, which imo is valid, but I can't say he has done enough to compare to MJ or Magic quite yet.
Bottom line: LeBron James and Michael Jordan are different players. LeBron James can do just about anything on a basketball court, and guard players from Tim Duncan all the way down to Tony Parker, and guard them effectively.

Michael Jordan, as great as he was, couldn't do the same.

Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are much more similar with regards to comparing their style of play. You are better off doing the comparison between LeBron and Bird/Magic.

I will add this though - if the air conditioning is working on Thursday, the Heat are going home up 2-0. That third quarter from LeBron last night was absurd.
 

casmith07

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Oh, and I've actually met LeBron James, in person. He's a friendly, pleasant human being. We chatted for a while, joked around, and he thanked me for my service before leaving. Everybody makes mistakes when they're younger. LeBron's a good dude at heart who made a few blunders (I don't want to hear about The Decision anymore...ESPN is just as guilty for that fiasco as LeBron, yet they act like it was all him . . . and they conveniently ignore the 100% donation of the proceeds to the Boys & Girls Clubs of America).

Now that I've said my pieces...I return you to your regularly scheduled fanboy flame wars.
 
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