Neighborhood watch captain kills black teen - doesn't get arrested

[iceberg]

As soon as a picture of the shooter went up, and he didn't look like Mr Rodgers, pretty much all vocal defense for him dropped.

That being said, that fact that he's half this and half that doesn't mean he didn't racially stereotype the kid.

I don't think the whole hate crime thing has to get involved here for race to have played a part in what went down.

maybe it's me but i hate the term "hate crime". if you kill someone, you pay the penalty. trying to determine value based off race or emotions to me is pointless.

you committed a crime, you pay the price.

 

[Hoofbite]

I think the family lawyer is doing a pretty poor job by constantly bringing up race.

No doubt it has played a role but he can't reliably expect that race alone will hold up.

I've seen him on camera a few times and each time he has said something about, "if Trayvon were the shooter he would be in jail right now".

He needs to move beyond the race issue for the time being and focus on why the Police Department didn't do things they reasonably should have as mandated by SOP.

Why was there no background check at the time?

Why was there no alcohol or drug test at the time? I've seen very many comment on how that is pretty standard in situations involving a death and yet it didn't happen.

What have witness statements been placed aside?

Why have the cops corrected witnesses at other times?

Why does the claim to self defense hold up when Zimmerman was the instigator?

These are all questions that need to be answered and I think the lawyer is doing a pretty shoddy job but constantly hounding on the underlying racial aspect.

Let the court of public opinion battle the race issue right now. I think he should stick to why the system has failed in other areas.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Maybe you should read all the evidence and listen to the 911 audio tapes first. There were numerous complaints from various members of the neighborhood about Zimmerman's antics before this incident occurred. The 911 tapes are from people who didn't know who Trayvon was.

nothing on the tapes show what happened when the two were in a confrontation.

the police recommending that Zimmerman not pursue does not mean he broke a law. this is something people seem to not understand.

 

[Romo_To_Dez]

nothing on the tapes show what happened when the two were in a confrontation.

the police recommending that Zimmerman not pursue does not mean he broke a law. this is something people seem to not understand.

It proves that Zimmerman's "Self Defense" Claim looks Bogus. Because if I follow you and start a fight and you dare fight back and I shot and kill you, then how in the world can I claim Self Defense, if it was ME would started the confrontation/fight by getting in your personal space.


If some strange man was following someone I think that most people would be freaked out and ready to run or fight back if confronted.

In that case anyone can follow anyone that they want dead, start a fight and kill them if that person fights back.

If I followed you and grabbed you or made you feel threatened you're the one acting in Self Defense not me

 

[Eric_Boyer]

It proves that Zimmerman's "Self Defense" Claim looks Bogus. Because if I follow you and start a fight and you dare fight back and I shot and kill you, then how in the world can I claim Self Defense, if it was ME would started the confrontation/fight by getting in your personal space.

the only known fact is Zimmerman followed him. We do not know who started the fight. If you have evidence of who started the fight, post it

 

[JonJon]

the only known fact is Zimmerman followed him. We do not know who started the fight. If you have evidence of who started the fight, post it

Here is reasonable cause to believe Zimmerman instigated the confrontation.

From http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Here is reasonable cause to believe Zimmerman instigated the confrontation.

From http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

still waiting for evidence of who started the confrontation because what you just provided isn't helpful at all in resolving this.

 

[Romo_To_Dez]

the only known fact is Zimmerman followed him. We do not know who started the fight. If you have evidence of who started the fight, post it

What do you teach your kids to do exactly if a stranger is following them? Either run if they can or scream and fight back in cornered or they feel threatened. So do Kids or even a adult not have the right to feel threatened by someone following them?

Because if a strange person is following me for no reason, then I would be on my guard. Because it's rather creepy for someone to follow someone else around for really no reason. Stalking someone is illegal. Following a person around and messing with them because of what you think they are up to can be seen as harassment. Because we should be able to walk to the store and back without a cop wanna be treating us like a criminal.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

What do you teach your kids to do exactly if a stranger is following them? Either run if they can or scream and fight back in cornered or they feel threatened. So do Kids or even a adult not have the right to feel threatened by someone following them?

Because if a strange person is following me for no reason, then I would be on my guard. Because it's rather creepy for someone to follow someone else around for really no reason. Stalking someone is illegal. Following a person around and messing with them because of what you think they are up to can be seen as harassment. Because we should be able to walk to the store and back without a cop wanna be treating us like a criminal.

we are talking about a 17 year old, which I do not consider a kid that deals with "stranger danger", but it is irrelevant.

if I choose to follow you, you can't attack me and claim you were scared of strangers just because I caught up to you and asked you what you are doing here.

What I just outlined is a reasonable explanation for what happened.

 

[TheCount]

maybe it's me but i hate the term "hate crime". if you kill someone, you pay the penalty. trying to determine value based off race or emotions to me is pointless.

you committed a crime, you pay the price.

I think it'd be great if that were the case, but when things get to court, a lot of our naive notions on justice tend to get tossed out the window.

A hate crime doesn't assign value to the victims life (or take away from it), it helps to prove intent/forethought which can be the difference between a manslaughter and murder charges and thus the punishment.

If a homophone gets in fights all the time, but escalates a fight to murder because the person he's fighting happened to be gay, then a hate crime will help get that homicide charge that might otherwise be a manslaughter charge.

It still has to be proved like anything else, of course.

In this case, the possibility of a hate crime will be important to a family seeking justice for their sons murder and for the shooters family. There's a reason the shooter's family was quick to make clear that he's only half white, Florida has the death penalty.

nothing on the tapes show what happened when the two were in a confrontation.

the police recommending that Zimmerman not pursue does not mean he broke a law. this is something people seem to not understand.

Zimmerman following him is not why this is making news.

 

[Romo_To_Dez]

we are talking about a 17 year old, which I do not consider a kid that deals with "stranger danger", but it is irrelevant.

if I choose to follow you, you can't attack me and claim you were scared of strangers just because I caught up to you and asked you what you are doing here.

What I just outlined is a reasonable explanation for what happened.

Like I said even with an adult. Zimmerman is not a cop so he can't decide who and who doesn't belong in the neighborhood or act like he's professional security.


If someone was following me and i waS minding my own business I would be on guard don't know about you. All of this could have been avoided if GZ waited for the cops.

Trayvon was under no obligation to answer GZ's questions and GZ was harassing him and treating him like a criminal and invaded the kids personal space.

It would be one thing if the Kid was resisting an uniformed cop (Even if it had ended in a shooting the cops gun would be taken for investigating), but if GZ' history is corrected then he has issues with calling 911 and being paranoid of every little thing and could have acted in an agressive manor making the kid feel threatned.

Those bleep always gets away. Sounds like Zimmerman was fed up and angry and took it out on Trayvon assuming that Trayvon was doing something wrong

 

[Dallas]

I think it'd be great if that were the case, but when things get to court, a lot of our naive notions on justice tend to get tossed out the window.

A hate crime doesn't assign value to the victims life (or take away from it), it helps to prove intent/forethought which can be the difference between a manslaughter and murder charges and thus the punishment.

If a homophone gets in fights all the time, but escalates a fight to murder because the person he's fighting happened to be gay, then a hate crime will help get that homicide charge that might otherwise be a manslaughter charge.

It still has to be proved like anything else, of course.

In this case, the possibility of a hate crime will be important to a family seeking justice for their sons murder and for the shooters family. There's a reason the shooter's family was quick to make clear that he's only half white, Florida has the death penalty.



Zimmerman following him is not why this is making news.

It was only making news AT first because it was REPORTED he was white. Don't confuse yourself and try to spin it otherwise. You were even on board with the white racial hatred crime. Sadly, you still are.

Throw out the fact that this guy made a terrible call in judgment, which is obvious to nearly 90% of us reading this thread. Ignore alllllllllllll of that.

Back to the topic...even though hes only PART WHITE...we should go after a racial hate crime because that would assist in getting the death penalty.

Unbelievable!

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Like I said even with an adult. Zimmerman is not a cop so he can't decide who and who doesn't belong in the neighborhood or act like he's professional security.

This is a straw man. We do not know what happened when the two met. We know Zimmerman asked what the person was doing, but to insinuate he was attempting to kick him out of the neighborhood is conjecture

Again, an individual has the right to follow someone in public (unless you get a restraining order). a cop really doesn't have any more rights then you or I. the reason a cop can follow you around in public is because you also have that right.

Over time we have given official law enforcement more legal protection stemming from their choices in handling such matters, but individuals still enjoy these rights as well.

 

[TheCount]

Your both getting completely sidetracked. Zimmerman hasn't been arrested for killing someone. That's the first hurdle to cross here.

Do you believe he should still be free? If you believe so, then I don't see why you'd bother taking part in the conversation, you've already got that.

If following him was all that happened, there would be no story.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Your both getting completely sidetracked. Zimmerman hasn't been arrested for killing someone. That's the first hurdle to cross here.

huh? As I stated, We do not know what happened when the two met. We know Zimmerman asked what the person was doing.

Do you believe he should still be free? If you believe so, then I don't see why you'd bother taking part in the conversation, you've already got that.

If following him was all that happened, there would be no story.

I believe the local law enforcement were careless in the handling, and the national attention is deserved, but I am not certain enough evidence exists to press felony charges at this point.

 

[TheCount]

huh? As I stated, We do not know what happened when the two met. We know Zimmerman asked what the person was doing.

I believe the local law enforcement were careless in the handling, and the national attention is deserved, but I am not certain enough evidence exists to press felony charges at this point.

What would it take for you to think there is enough proof to warrant an arrest? Eye witness? Obviously there's only one person alive to tell their side at this point, but I'm not even sure what an eye witness would say unless they were standing right there when it all went down that would answer all these questions.

And we do know what happened. There was a confrontation between the two, one person had a gun, says he feared for his life and at some point in the struggle shot the other person.

I'm not a cop, so I don't know what you'd normally do in this situation. At the very least, at the time of the shooting, the cops should have done a number of things they failed to do.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

What would it take for you to think there is enough proof to warrant an arrest? Eye witness? Obviously there's only one person alive to tell their side at this point.

unfortunately, yes. the survivor had visible signs of being attacked (bloody nose, scrape on back of head). unless someone can appear as a witness, probably cause certainly exists that he acted in self defense.

 

[TheCount]

unfortunately, yes. the survivor had visible signs of being attacked (bloody nose, scrape on back of head). unless someone can appear as a witness, probably cause certainly exists that he acted in self defense.

So then shooting someone is justifiable every time you start losing a fist fight?

Also, I don't think the term "probably cause for self defense" is necessarily what you meant, you mean there was no probable cause for an arrest.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

So then shooting someone is justifiable every time you start losing a fist fight?

the police were told by Zimmerman that he was attacked, which is substantially different then "losing a fight"

 

[JonJon]

the police were told by Zimmerman that he was attacked, which is substantially different then "losing a fight"

How does anyone know he wasn't lying?