Neighborhood watch captain kills black teen - doesn't get arrested

[iceberg]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/opinion/toobin-trayvon-martin/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

just - wow. florida has a "stand your ground" law thanks to the NRA that says if you feel threatened, you can shoot someone.

The legal question at the heart of the case involves Florida's so-called "stand your ground" law, which the legislature passed, at the behest of the National Rifle Association, in 2005. Before that time, Florida law resembled that of most other states; during confrontations, individuals had a duty to retreat rather than to respond to provocations. Under the new law, a person is allowed to use deadly force if he is in a place he has a right to be and feels reasonably threatened with serious harm.

so if you don't care for someone (is there a "don't care for you" crime to be somewhere between "i loved you but killed you anyway" and a "hate crime"?) you can set it up to where you provoke them, they stand their ground, then you can stand yours and shoot them.

very jacked up law. the article says "justifiable homicides" have tripled since this went into affect.

 

[Cythim]

Treyvon did not run as far as I have read. His friend on the phone told him to, but he said he would not run away.

On the 911 call Zimmerman specifically says "He ran."

 

[Eric_Boyer]

On the 911 call Zimmerman specifically says "He ran."

ran from a person sitting in a car that had not started following?

 

[WoodysGirl]

Opinion: Trayvon Martin, not George Zimmerman, was engaged in self-defense

Editor’s note: Carolyn Edgar is a lawyer and writer in New York City. She writes about social issues, parenting and relationships on her blog, Carolyn Edgar. You can follow her on Twitter @carolynedgar.
By Carolyn Edgar, Special to CNN

(CNN) – Imagine the following scenario:

You are a 17-year-old boy in Sanford, Florida. You are visiting your father and his fiancée at your soon-to-be stepmother’s home in a gated community. You decide to make a late-night candy run to your local 7-Eleven. It’s nighttime and drizzling, so you are wearing a hooded sweatshirt. At the store, you buy a package of Skittles and an Arizona Iced Tea, then head back home.

As you are walking home, you notice a man in an SUV following you. The man gets out of the car. He’s a big guy who outweighs you by 100 pounds. He doesn’t identify himself as a police officer – in fact, you don’t know who he is. What should you do next?


According to Florida’s justifiable use of force statute, you have the right to defend yourself. Section 776.012, in relevant part:

Read the rest: http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...george-zimmerman-was-engaged-in-self-defense/

 

[Cythim]

ran from a person sitting in a car that had not started following?

911: are you following him?
Zman: Yes
911: We don't need you to do that.
Zman: He ran.

Treyvon felt threatened and fled from the man who would eventually kill him. Zimmerman was harassing him.

 

[iceberg]

Opinion: Trayvon Martin, not George Zimmerman, was engaged in self-defense

Editor’s note: Carolyn Edgar is a lawyer and writer in New York City. She writes about social issues, parenting and relationships on her blog, Carolyn Edgar. You can follow her on Twitter @carolynedgar.
By Carolyn Edgar, Special to CNN

(CNN) – Imagine the following scenario:

You are a 17-year-old boy in Sanford, Florida. You are visiting your father and his fiancée at your soon-to-be stepmother’s home in a gated community. You decide to make a late-night candy run to your local 7-Eleven. It’s nighttime and drizzling, so you are wearing a hooded sweatshirt. At the store, you buy a package of Skittles and an Arizona Iced Tea, then head back home.

As you are walking home, you notice a man in an SUV following you. The man gets out of the car. He’s a big guy who outweighs you by 100 pounds. He doesn’t identify himself as a police officer – in fact, you don’t know who he is. What should you do next?


According to Florida’s justifiable use of force statute, you have the right to defend yourself. Section 776.012, in relevant part:

Read the rest: http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...george-zimmerman-was-engaged-in-self-defense/

yea, that's just what i saw. so if he would have killed zimmerman first (if he had a gun that is) then would he have been justified? can you "pick a fight" and then feel threatened and kill them?

this just sucks all around.

 

[TheCount]

ran from a person sitting in a car that had not started following?

"He didn't run."
"The shooter says he did."
"Pfft, what does he know?"

You're not even listening to what others are saying at this point, you've got your mind made up that the killing was justified. You already said short of someone standing 5 feet away throughout the whole incident, you won't accept anything else as proof Martin wasn't the aggressor and the shooting wasn't justified, so I'm not sure why you bother to continue the conversation since clearly that's never going to happen.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

911: are you following him?
Zman: Yes
911: We don't need you to do that.
Zman: He ran.

Treyvon felt threatened and fled from the man who would eventually kill him. Zimmerman was harassing him.

You might be right that he ran, but when I first listened to this days ok, I took ran as a generic he fled the area.

When I was younger I witnessed a teen steal a Christmas wreath off my neighbors front door. I chased him down, in this case we were both running.

You are basically saying I did not have the right o chase this kid down. My only right was to call the police and watch as the kid I felt was a criminal runs off.

I don’t agree at all.

 

[JonJon]

yea, that's just what i saw. so if he would have killed zimmerman first (if he had a gun that is) then would he have been justified? can you "pick a fight" and then feel threatened and kill them?

this just sucks all around.

According to the article, you can't be the initiator and then claim self defense. From all evidence and information that has been released, it appears that Zimmerman was the initiator. Therefore, he doesn't have the right to claim self-defense. The only way Trayvon would not be expressing his right to self defense would be if he initiated the confrontation with Zimmerman. But from all accounts, including Zimmerman's, Trayvon ran and tried to get away.

 

[Cythim]

You might be right that he ran, but when I first listened to this days ok, I took ran as a generic he fled the area.

When I was younger I witnessed a teen steal a Christmas wreath off my neighbors front door. I chased him down, in this case we were both running.

You are basically saying I did not have the right o chase this kid down. My only right was to call the police and watch as the kid I felt was a criminal runs off.

I don’t agree at all.

Huge difference, you chased a kid down who committed a crime. Treyvon did nothing illegal, Zimmerman only thought he looked suspicious.

 

[iceberg]

You might be right that he ran, but when I first listened to this days ok, I took ran as a generic he fled the area.

When I was younger I witnessed a teen steal a Christmas wreath off my neighbors front door. I chased him down, in this case we were both running.

You are basically saying I did not have the right o chase this kid down. My only right was to call the police and watch as the kid I felt was a criminal runs off.

I don’t agree at all.

common sense get mad at you long ago and run away? someone stole something and you saw it directly and took appropriate action. this is clearly not the same thing so you win the crappy analogy of the day award.

According to the article, you can't be the initiator and then claim self defense. From all evidence and information that has been released, it appears that Zimmerman was the initiator. Therefore, he doesn't have the right to claim self-defense. The only way Trayvon would not be expressing his right to self defense would be if he initiated the confrontation with Zimmerman. But from all accounts, including Zimmerman's, Trayvon ran and tried to get away.

i'd like to think it was that clear and hopefully with more attention on this, it will get sorted out. right now i can see no possible justification for zimmerman doing what he did. but if this law causes confusion then it needs to clearly be addressed, or dismissed in this instance. if dismissed, zimmerman should be brought in for questioning.

hoofbite nailed it a few pages back. the focus on did he run or not is just a gerbil rodeo and not the focus of the incident. it appears many standard procedures were not followed that night by the police - why?

zimmerman has a lot to answer for.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Huge difference, you chased a kid down who committed a crime. Treyvon did nothing illegal, Zimmerman only thought he looked suspicious.

Not a huge difference, it could have been a prank, and he could of lived there. The fact that he ran is what made me suspicious. If he casually walked away with it, I wouldn’t of ran after him.

But ignoring all that, the kid talked to a girl on the phone and said he would not run and The 9/11 call didn’t sound like the overweight Zimmerman was running.

I really think, he ran, means he left the area, which is why I am following him, but can see how that may not be the case.

 

[iceberg]

Not a huge difference, it could have been a prank, and he could of lived there. The fact that he ran is what made me suspicious. If he casually walked away with it, I wouldn’t of ran after him.

But ignoring all that, the kid talked to a girl on the phone and said he would not run and The 9/11 call didn’t sound like the overweight Zimmerman was running.

I really think, he ran, means he left the area, which is why I am following him, but can see how that may not be the case.

so i can steal your neighbors stuff if i quietly walk away.

where do you live again?

 

[JonJon]

One additional thought that I would like to add to this discussion... I really think Zimmerman had a case of paranoia and was delusional. Race may have had a part to play in it, but I think he was more confused than anything. In the 911 tapes, Zimmerman said that Trayvon looked suspicious and that there was something wrong with him.

We know from the girlfriend that Trayvon was on the phone with her at the time. Trayvon was talking to her through his headset, which was probably covered up by his hoodie at the time. What Zimmerman probably saw was a kid walking around in sporadic patterns and talking to himself. I do this all the time when I am on the phone; I walk around, back and forth, in circles, zigzag or whatever... I would definitely have the appearance of "having something wrong with me" if someone didn't know that I was on the phone.

This doesn't excuse Zimmerman in the least bit, but may give some insight into why he thought Trayvon looked suspicious.

 

[iceberg]

One additional thought that I would like to add to this discussion... I really think Zimmerman had a case of paranoia and was delusional. Race may have had a part to play in it, but I think he was more confused than anything. In the 911 tapes, Zimmerman said that Trayvon looked suspicious and that there was something wrong with him.

We know from the girlfriend that Trayvon was on the phone with her at the time. Trayvon was talking to her through his headset, which was probably covered up by his hoodie at the time. What Zimmerman probably saw was a kid walking around in sporadic patterns and talking to himself. I do this all the time when I am on the phone; I walk around, back and forth, in circles, zigzag or whatever... I would definitely have the appearance of "having something wrong with me" if someone didn't know that I was on the phone.

This doesn't excuse Zimmerman in the least bit, but may give some insight into why he thought Trayvon looked suspicious.

i also think, from what i've read so far, zimmerman seems to create suspecion so he can go out and be a "cop" per se. not gonna go back and dig it up but i believe i read somewhere along the line that he had made TONS more 911 calls than anyone else on watch.

if you want to see something, you will. even if it's not there.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

so i can steal your neighbors stuff if i quietly walk away.

where do you live again?

If you do not raise suspicions, you will be a much more successful thief.

Any more common sense things I can help you with?

(and to think I was called the troll in this thread lmao)

 

[Cythim]

common sense get mad at you long ago and run away? someone stole something from you and you saw it directly and took appropriate action. this is clearly not the same thing so you win the crappy analogy of the day award.



i'd like to think it was that clear and hopefully with more attention on this, it will get sorted out. right now i can see no possible justification for zimmerman doing what he did. but if this law causes confusion then it needs to clearly be addressed, or dismissed in this instance. if dismissed, zimmerman should be brought in for questioning.

hoofbite nailed it a few pages back. the focus on did he run or not is just a gerbil rodeo and not the focus of the incident. it appears many standard procedures were not followed that night by the police - why?

zimmerman has a lot to answer for.

If you listen to the Zimmerman 911 call it clearly sounds like he got out of his vehicle to pursue Treyvon on foot. If he was in his car at this point you would not hear the wind blow across the mic on of the cell phone.

 

[iceberg]

If you do not raise suspicions, you will be a much more successful thief.

Any more common sense things I can help you with?

(and to think I was called the troll in this thread lmao)

so what did the kid do to raise suspicion?

 

[Cythim]

Not a huge difference, it could have been a prank, and he could of lived there. The fact that he ran is what made me suspicious. If he casually walked away with it, I wouldn’t of ran after him.

But ignoring all that, the kid talked to a girl on the phone and said he would not run and The 9/11 call didn’t sound like the overweight Zimmerman was running.

I really think, he ran, means he left the area, which is why I am following him, but can see how that may not be the case.

Even if Treyvon walked away, it was clear that he was suspicious of Zimmerman and wanted to put distance between the two of them. Zimmerman's aggressive pursuit was criminal harassment.

 

[iceberg]

Even if Treyvon walked away, it was clear that he was suspicious of Zimmerman and wanted to put distance between the two of them. Zimmerman's aggressive pursuit was criminal harassment.

as far as i'm concerned, the police/911 told him to NOT pursue. he did. whatever results from that is HIS responsibility.

period.