Neighborhood watch captain kills black teen - doesn't get arrested

[JonJon]

some more info.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...watch-leader/2012/03/08/gIQAPkJSzR_story.html

So we know that Zimmerman thought the kid was suspicious by the way he walked or appeared, called it in, and was recommended to leave the situation alone until the cops arrived to investigate the matter.

Instead, Zimmerman follows the kid, gets into an altercation in which he was apparently getting beaten up, then kills the kid in self defense.

Maybe I am just not seeing it like everyone else, and I apologize if that's the case, but it seems to me like Zimmerman was the instigator in the confrontation, but once he realized that the kid was getting the better of him, he kills him, and claims self defense. That's like me throwing rocks at a hornet's nest and then claiming that I was attacked for no reason after getting stung.

Sounds like Second Degree Murder or at the very least, Voluntary Manslaughter more than self defense to me. I just can't understand why he wasn't brought in for questioning. Oh well, I guess we all just have to wait and see what will come of all of this.

 

[The30YardSlant]

So we know that Zimmerman thought the kid was suspicious by the way he walked or appeared, called it in, and was recommended to leave the situation alone until the cops arrived to investigate the matter.

Instead, Zimmerman follows the kid, gets into an altercation in which he was apparently getting beaten up, then kills the kid in self defense.

Maybe I am just not seeing it like everyone else, and I apologize if that's the case, but it seems to me like Zimmerman was the instigator in the confrontation, but once he realized that the kid was getting the better of him, he kills him, and claims self defense. That's like me throwing rocks at a hornet's nest and then saying that I was attacked after getting stung.

Sounds like Second Degree Murder or at the very least, Voluntary Manslaughter more than self defense to me. I just can't understand why he wasn't brought in for questioning. Oh well, I guess we all just have to wait and see wait will come of all of this.

To be fair, even if you instigate something and the other individual takes it too far (as in they just keep beating on yuo after it's obvious they have removed your threat to them) in the eyes of the law they can still be held responsible and self-defense can still apply.

It's no different than if someone breaks into your home, you disable them/disarm them/whatever and then shoot them just because you're pissed. You are still going to be charged even though they started it. Now, if the first thing you do when they break in is shoot them and they die that's different, but you can't just continue shooting/beating on someone after the threat is removed. You might want to and they might deserve it, but you can't.

In reality, if that's what happened then really all their going to get him on is manslaughter at best.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

I'm wondering how long it took for the police to get there. Many gated communities have their own security and if they don't, at least from my experience, the police usually arrive very quickly when called for any reason.

I'm thinking like, five minutes. I can't imagine it taking any longer than that for the police to get there. That doesn't seem like enough time for this guy to keep following the kid, then confront him, then get in a big fight.

 

[The30YardSlant]

I'm wondering how long it took for the police to get there. Many gated communities have their own security and if they don't, at least from my experience, the police usually arrive very quickly when called for any reason.

I'm thinking like, five minutes. I can't imagine it taking any longer than that for the police to get there. That doesn't seem like enough time for this guy to keep following the kid, then confront him, then get in a big fight.

What are you implying?

 

[DOUBLE WING]

What are you implying?

I'm not implying anything, just thinking out loud about what could have happened in the time he called the cops to the time the cops arrived.

If you figure, he calls the cops, they tell him to go home and he doesn't. So he hangs up and follows the kid a bit further, gets out of the car and they have a verbal confrontation, then get into a fight that leads to the guy having grassmarks on his back.

I can't imagine that all happening in just the span of a few minutes.

 

[Rack]

So we know that Zimmerman thought the kid was suspicious by the way he walked or appeared, called it in, and was recommended to leave the situation alone until the cops arrived to investigate the matter.

Instead, Zimmerman follows the kid, gets into an altercation in which he was apparently getting beaten up, then kills the kid in self defense.

Maybe I am just not seeing it like everyone else, and I apologize if that's the case, but it seems to me like Zimmerman was the instigator in the confrontation, but once he realized that the kid was getting the better of him, he kills him, and claims self defense. That's like me throwing rocks at a hornet's nest and then claiming that I was attacked for no reason after getting stung.

Sounds like Second Degree Murder or at the very least, Voluntary Manslaughter more than self defense to me. I just can't understand why he wasn't brought in for questioning. Oh well, I guess we all just have to wait and see what will come of all of this.

How do you know this? Did I miss something? I read that IF protocol was followed by the dispatcher and he told him to wait, etc... but from what I read nothing was verified either way.


But... here's a scenario... you're a neighborhood watch guy and you see someone doing something suspicious. You call it in and the police say to not get involved, etc... but 10 minutes later you observe this suspicious person grab a lady and attempt to rape her. You still gonna wait for the police?

I'm not saying this is what happened... I'm making a point that WE DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS AND TRYING TO PIECE ANYTHING TOGETHER RIGHT NOW IS POINTLESS.

 

[TheCount]

How do you know this? Did I miss something? I read that IF protocol was followed by the dispatcher and he told him to wait, etc... but from what I read nothing was verified either way.

He means the dispatcher, you obviously don't talk to police officers when you call 911, but the police did confirm that that the dispatcher told him to wait for police. A link to that updated is posted earlier in the thread.

 

[Goku]

why the **** did he even confront him anyways? once he called the police he should have let them handle it. ridiculous the kid was just getting some candy for his little brother and now he is dead. this story makes me sick to my stomach. if i was that kids father, i'd be hard pressed not contemplating revenge.

 

[Goku]

that story of him bleeding and having grass on his back sounds like some b/s to me.

looking at the pics of trayvon online, it doesn't look like he was a very big kid.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tra...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBIQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=675

 

[JonJon]

He means the dispatcher, you obviously don't talk to police officers when you call 911, but the police did confirm that that the dispatcher told him to wait for police. A link to that updated is posted earlier in the thread.

Thanks Count, that is what I meant.

Here is the link to the article and the quoted part where this part of the story arises.

He said that Zimmerman did indeed call 911 and report a suspicious person, and that he was told not to follow him.

“For some reason he felt that Trayvon, the way that he was walking or appeared seemed suspicious to him,” Lee said. “He called this in and at one part of this initial call [the dispatcher] recommends him not to follow Trayvon. A police officer is on the way at that point.”

Lee said that Zimmerman instead followed Martin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Another tragedy of a young life lost for no good reason, one way or another. I'm not going to get into the politics or racial or any of the other junk that's going to go into this and cloud the most important part of this.

A 17 year old kid is dead. Rather he did something or not isn't relevant to the fact that it's another tragic loss of life at too young an age. The rest is just coffee shop talk filler and doesn't amount to anything.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

a million things.

like, the kid was throwing rocks at the car. the man got out to lecture the kid, who started pushing his finger in the mans chest. witness's saw the whole thing go down, as the teen got more and more confrontational.

assuming it is race based is pathetic.

and that justifies shooting someone?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

What he chose were poor examples but if a scenario unfolded where the shooter was in legitimate fear for his life (they were arguing and the kid reached into his pocket, the kid physically attacked him, etc.) then it is hardly uncommon to postpone an arrest pending investigation. If he was legally carrying, and he can prove there were circumstances that would lead a rational individual to fear for their life, then he won't be convicted of this. Am I saying that's what happened? No, but whatever happened I refuse to believe that he simply shot the kid in cold blood and has yet to be arrested.

problem with that is he was unarmed. yes the shooter didn't know that, but is suspecting someone to be armed justification for shooting them?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Oh look, EXACTLY what I said. A confrontation, he claims he feared for his life and has yet to be arrested pending investigation. This was not in the original article posted, or if it was I missed it.

you can't create a confrontaion then shoot an unarmed person claiming you were afraid for your life.

 

[The30YardSlant]

problem with that is he was unarmed. yes the shooter didn't know that, but is suspecting someone to be armed justification for shooting them?

In a court of law yes, and there's a ton of precedent for it. Most rational people would fear for their life if an unknown individual suddenly reached for something during a strong verbal or physical confrontation, and many a police officer and concealed weapon carrier has shot someone they thought was armed and either not been charged or acquitted of charges.

 

[The30YardSlant]

you can't create a confrontaion then shoot an unarmed person claiming you were afraid for your life.

It depends on the circumstances and the level of confrontation you created, but it isnt even clear who initiated the altercation as of now.

 

[Cythim]

It depends on the circumstances and the level of confrontation you created, but it isnt even clear who initiated the altercation as of now.

It is obvious who initiated the confrontation. Zimmerman called the kid in. Zimmerman proceeded to follow the kid against advisement from dispatchers. Zimmerman decided at some point to get out of his car. Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew and shot the kid for it.

All he had to do was drive away after placing the call. Or drive away when the kid confronted him. Or drive away instead of being provoked out of his car. Having a carry permit is not license to instigate a fight and murder your victim if you start losing.

 

[The30YardSlant]

It is obvious who initiated the confrontation. Zimmerman called the kid in. Zimmerman proceeded to follow the kid against advisement from dispatchers. Zimmerman decided at some point to get out of his car. Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew and shot the kid for it.

All he had to do was drive away after placing the call. Or drive away when the kid confronted him. Or drive away instead of being provoked out of his car. Having a carry permit is not license to instigate a fight and murder your victim if you start losing.

I agree it wouldnt have occurred if he had left and have acknowledged that pursuing him was stupid, but I don't think we know who actually initiated the physical altercation. Pursuing him was dumb but not illegal, meaning he isnt guilty of anything but stupidity if the kid attacked him. Not saying that's what happened, though.

I think more than anything in this thread I've been bugged by people saying it was obviously race-related. Believe it or not, I've actually been accused of being a racist simply because somebody found out I went to A&M. People jump ont he smallest things when it comes to race.

 

[Cythim]

I agree it wouldnt have occurred if he had left and have acknowledged that pursuing him was stupid, but I don't think we know who actually initiated the physical altercation. Pursuing him was dumb but not illegal, meaning he isnt guilty of anything but stupidity if the kid attacked him. Not saying that's what happened, though.

I think more than anything in this thread I've been bugged by people saying it was obviously race-related. Believe it or not, I've actually been accused of being a racist simply because somebody found out I went to A&M. People jump ont he smallest things when it comes to race.

I don't think it matters who initiated the physical altercation when it is a minor versus an adult. The adult in this case clearly had opportunities to back off and never did. We will never know what the kid was thinking and what drew him into a fight. I can tell you the kid would not have been wrong to question the driver who was stalking him and would not have been wrong to protect himself if the driver gets out of his car. Zimmerman may not have been doing anything illegal but he is responsible for creating the situation and responsible for the death of a teenager who was walking home from the store.

As for the race factor, you have to ask if this would have played out the exact same way if the kid was white instead of black. I don't know that answer, but I believe it was a matter of circumstance and Zimmerman didn't find him suspicious simply because he was black. The kid was there visiting his father, so he was not a regular resident of the neighborhood. Since it is a gated community seeing someone you don't know or who does not look familiar can seem suspicious. His actions after finding the kid suspicious may have been because of race but that is not something I can speculate on.

 

[tyke1doe]

Number one, that report is not the whole story obviously. It can't be.

Number two, if it is indeed the whole story, then the guy needs to be arrested.

Number three, why is race even an issue. The guy that died is black, that doesn't make him more dead. The guy that shot him is white, that doesn't make him more white.

The shooter needs to go to jail and be treated just like any other murderer if it did happen the way the report said. Race means nothing in this matter unless they find some White Power literature at his house or something stupid like that.

It may be a race issue because some whites have formed stereotypes about black youth, i.e., they're looking to break into your house or commit a crime and if they're in a rich community they shouldn't be there.

We don't know all the facts of this story, but that's the unfortunate backdrop that makes this issue about race.