Newman vs. Vasher...Dollars and Cents

[burmafrd]

latin, you really do not watch Newman much if you think that.

 

[LatinMind]

Sorry, I don't believe it. The original post here has capital letters.

Although it did try to prop Owens for not asking for a new contract after one season. So I do believe it.

lol i suggest you visit the post at Cowboyspride.net thats where this poster is a member and took it from. the admin there at that site put the caps on because they have it on their front page.

 

[LatinMind]

latin, you really do not watch Newman much if you think that.

why because i dont buy into him as being a great cb? im sure u remember from posting in espn. i was a big newman fan. but after a few yrs and seeing all his dropped int's. i've grown to say blah to him.

 

[28 Joker]

Nathan Vasher is a very good cover-2 corner. He does a good job of playing his designated area of space or zone which is located outside the numbers and in the shallow flats. He always has help over the top, and he doesn't have to cover the deep 1/3 of the field alone. Also, he doesn't have to cover the intermediate or deep thirds of the middle of the field at all. Vasher doesn't play tight man-to-man coverage. On long yardage situations, he can play off the reciever and wait for him to come into his narrow zone on long yardage situations. Playing cover-2 enables Vasher and players like Ronde Barber to be aggressive when recievers enter their zones by spying on the quarterback or watching the quaterback's eyes. As a result, they can jump balls for picks better than corners who are locked in tight man-to-man coverage, because the corners playing tight man coverage will have their backs to the quarterback while running with speedy recievers. This is especially true for Newman since he is defending the deep and intermediate parts of the middle of the field much of his time. He will do this in the slot.

This is another flaw in K.C. Joyner's analysis of cornerbacks. Terence Newman's and Nathan Vasher's job descriptions are very different because of the two different schemes the Cowboys and Bears run. (Cover-2 Zone VS Tight Man-to-Man Defense) Yet, it is just stats with Joyner. He doesn't take into account the fact that different schemes affect the way corners play. Moreover, the scheme they play can affect their stats. Also, stats can be interpreted many ways, and that interpretation can be subjective. Stats can be manipulated to build an argument.

Anyone remember Steve Smith blowing by that Bears corner in the 2005 playoff game for that long touchdown to open the game? The Bears left that corner on an island, and they never do that. They paid for it.

 

[burmafrd]

So he drops INTs. Most CBs do- its why they are not WRs. He can shut down the best wrs in the game AND THAT IS WHY HE IS AN ELITE CB.

 

[LatinMind]

So he drops INTs. Most CBs do- its why they are not WRs. He can shut down the best wrs in the game AND THAT IS WHY HE IS AN ELITE CB.

too bad he cant shut down the likes of mike furrey, because he ate newman alive last yr. as did mike williams.

 

[DCBoysfan]

lol wow i didnt even know somebody had taken my post over here.

See Post #7

 

[AdamJT13]

newman gets thrown at more, deflections indicate that.

Newman has been thrown at more since 2004 only because Vasher hasn't played nearly as much. Vasher started only seven games in 2004 and played only 44 percent of the time that season. He played only 79 percent of the time in 2005 and only 78.7 percent of the time in 2006. Newman, meanwhile, has played 98.5, 99.0 and 97.8 percent of the time. Overall, during those three seasons, Vasher played 67.1 percent of the time to Newman's 98.4 percent. Newman has been on the field for 2,951 plays to Vasher's 2,168. And Newman has faced approximately 1,484 pass plays to Vasher's 1,119.

According to STATS LLC, Newman has been targeted 257 times in the past three seasons, compared to 235 for Vasher. So Newman's target rate is 17.3 percent, compared to 21 percent for Vasher -- a difference of about 18 targets if they both played a full season (about 500 pass plays). Over the past two seasons (since Vasher became a starter), even though Newman has been on the field for about 97 more pass plays, Vasher has been targeted 18 more times.

 

[LatinMind]

See Post #7

i read. the economic part of newmans deal is what i was emphasizing and why i dont think its smart to give him a big deal. theres too many other parts of the team that are coming up, that would make a mega deal for newman a stupid buisness deal. but i guess people only view the economics when its freeagents, or trades. when its a present dallas cowboy, its ok to overspend.

 

[LatinMind]

Newman has been thrown at more since 2004 only because Vasher hasn't played nearly as much. Vasher started only seven games in 2004 and played only 44 percent of the time that season. He played only 79 percent of the time in 2005 and only 78.7 percent of the time in 2006. Newman, meanwhile, has played 98.5, 99.0 and 97.8 percent of the time. Overall, during those three seasons, Vasher played 67.1 percent of the time to Newman's 98.4 percent. Newman has been on the field for 2,951 plays to Vasher's 2,168. And Newman has faced approximately 1,484 pass plays to Vasher's 1,119.

According to STATS LLC, Newman has been targeted 257 times in the past three seasons, compared to 235 for Vasher. So Newman's target rate is 17.3 percent, compared to 21 percent for Vasher -- a difference of about 18 targets if they both played a full season (about 500 pass plays). Over the past two seasons (since Vasher became a starter), even though Newman has been on the field for about 97 more pass plays, Vasher has been targeted 18 more times.

thanks, and looking at them numbers, ill say, vasher being looked at less, and having more int's he has a better sense of his surroundings. those numbers dont indicate that newman is overly better. just that vasher went into a situation where the bears defense was already good. while newman has been on some bad defenses.

ill still stick to my guns and say newman isnt much better then newman if at all. and newman isnt worth very much more then vasher is now. considering his age. but those numbers are helpfull alot. thanks dude.

that stats LLC do u have to join up to view them stats? i went there before and i saw no stats, just a overview of what they do, and who they do it for.

 

[adamknite]

Newman has been thrown at more since 2004 only because Vasher hasn't played nearly as much. Vasher started only seven games in 2004 and played only 44 percent of the time that season. He played only 79 percent of the time in 2005 and only 78.7 percent of the time in 2006. Newman, meanwhile, has played 98.5, 99.0 and 97.8 percent of the time. Overall, during those three seasons, Vasher played 67.1 percent of the time to Newman's 98.4 percent. Newman has been on the field for 2,951 plays to Vasher's 2,168. And Newman has faced approximately 1,484 pass plays to Vasher's 1,119.

According to STATS LLC, Newman has been targeted 257 times in the past three seasons, compared to 235 for Vasher. So Newman's target rate is 17.3 percent, compared to 21 percent for Vasher -- a difference of about 18 targets if they both played a full season (about 500 pass plays). Over the past two seasons (since Vasher became a starter), even though Newman has been on the field for about 97 more pass plays, Vasher has been targeted 18 more times.

ehhhh, what do you know.




Seriously though, good stuff. It shows how a person can get some stats and make them say anything they want. All they have to do is leave out part of the story.

 

[Vintage]

Newman has 8 INTs since '04 and has been targeted 257 times (3.11% INT rate)

Vasher has 16 INTs since '04 and has been targeted 235 times (6.81% INT rate)

 

[DCBoysfan]

i read. the economic part of newmans deal is what i was emphasizing and why i dont think its smart to give him a big deal. theres too many other parts of the team that are coming up, that would make a mega deal for newman a stupid buisness deal. but i guess people only view the economics when its freeagents, or trades. when its a present dallas cowboy, its ok to overspend.

Very Good corners cost as well they should. Age aside Newman is a very..very..good corner. I have seen every game he has played since he was drafted, and since his second year slump he has performed as a top corner. He may not have gone to the probowl but he has played on a probowl level. I don't think he will get Nate Clements money (Nate Clements did'nt deserve Nate Clemnets money) but he will get paid. The salary cap is going up every year so I'm not worried about Jerry not signing a player because of Salary Cap reasons. Jerry and Stephen Jones has done a great job of managing the cap. I think Vasher is a good corner also, but if it is forth down and I need a corner on a WR to prevent a first with a trip to the Superbowl on the line I would rather have Newman, than Vasher......but thats just me...

 

[28 Joker]

It is funny how Newman can give up a 10 yard slant to Tim Carter or a 12 yard slant to Marcus Colton or a 13 yard slant to Reggie Brown or a very short touchdown to Ashlie Lelie and Micheal Vick (he was responsible for Vick running to their corner of the endzone) or a 32 yard skinny post to Bobby Engram and have the "bad" game lable stamped on his head. Those catches listed above occured in the span of 4 games, and those yards and catches were just about all that he gave up in those 4 games.

Still some people will ignore the 12 or 13 very good games that he played during 2006. They will point to the Jacksonville and Detroit games and the four mentioned above and say Newman didn't have a season worthy of being in the same league as other great corners.

Are these people really Cowboys fans saying this stuff, or are they ESPN zombies? I wonder.

 

[jterrell]

At least this is off-season entertainment....

Things I think....

A. Newman is no where near as good as some make him out to be.
B. Newman is no where near as mediocre as some make him out to be.
C. Teams have picked on Henry, especially once he gets banged up.
D. Newman can shut guys down.
E. Newman can not shut down Steve Smith as was eluded to in one post as some knock on Vasher(btw i am almost certain it was Tillman who was burned on that play; one of my best friends is a big Bears fan and I told him they should have watched us to learn how to defend Smith, lol), Steve Smith burns everyone if not double covered.
F. Newman makes plays but he does not make QBs pay for looking his way by intercepting passes, and its a shame because he is so good as a returner.
G. Its possible the new more aggressive scheme will mean more picks and gambling by Newman who can expect less 10 second coverage.
H. Newman is very very good no matter how you slice it and every team in the league would welcome him with open arms.
I. Newman has yet to make a Pro Bowl because he doesn't get the high pick totals.
J. If he did get 10 picks he's easily be considered the best CB in the league.
K. Parcells did not want his corners gambling at all, ever. He wanted them to defend the receiver and go make tackles.

 

[LatinMind]

Very Good corners cost as well they should. Age aside Newman is a very..very..good corner. I have seen every game he has played since he was drafted, and since his second year slump he has performed as a top corner. He may not have gone to the probowl but he has played on a probowl level. I don't think he will get Nate Clements money (Nate Clements did'nt deserve Nate Clemnets money) but he will get paid. The salary cap is going up every year so I'm not worried about Jerry not signing a player because of Salary Cap reasons. Jerry and Stephen Jones has done a great job of managing the cap. I think Vasher is a good corner also, but if it is forth down and I need a corner on a WR to prevent a first with a trip to the Superbowl on the line I would rather have Newman, than Vasher......but thats just me...

still dont see how u equate that into the economic impact newmans contract would have. or why you think he deserves an obsene amount of money. well atleast alot more then what vasher got. if thats what ur implying.

 

[DCBoysfan]

I can remember that play Newman made in the playoffs against Seattle, where he was going out of bounds and had the awarness and athletic ability to tap the ball to R. Williams. Now that was a helluva play, like Newman or Not.

 

[DCBoysfan]

still dont see how u equate that into the economic impact newmans contract would have. or why you think he deserves an obsene amount of money. well atleast alot more then what vasher got. if thats what ur implying.

What econmic impact??...when was the last time Jerry signed someone to a contract that the team could not handle??? Leoanrd Davis got a lot of money in some people eyes...but what he got was the market rate. Newman is going to get the market rate. A contract between Vasher and Clements.

 

[LatinMind]

I can remember that play Newman made in the playoffs against Seattle, where he was going out of bounds and had the awarness and athletic ability to tap the ball to R. Williams. Now that was a helluva play, like Newman or Not.

wasn't against the lions?

 

[LatinMind]

What econmic impact??...when was the last time Jerry signed someone to a contract that the team could not handle??? Leoanrd Davis got a lot of money in some people eyes...but what he got was the market rate. Newman is going to get the market rate. A contract between Vasher and Clements.

and davis contract is the same type of contract that IMO is best for newman. most of his money in the first 3 yrs of his deal. thanks for agreeing with me.:laugh2: