Next Demarcus Ware?

[WoodysGirl]

Victor Adeyanju

Sure he doesn't play tight end? Got a nice angle there... :wink2:

 

[dbair1967]

LOL!

Thanks David!

I just think we have far bigger problems at LB where run defense and pass coverage come into play.

Ware got better vs the run as the yr wore on, and I tought James wasnt bad vs the run...Ryan Fowler was an upgrade over Scott Shanle (which isnt saying much) but if Kevin Burnett is healthy he'll probably take the other ILB job...the other OLB spot needs upgrading, as I thought Fugita was a disappointment (esp run defense)

the pass coverage thing is a problem, but I do notice when watching our guys that we just never seem to jump into passing lanes...even with deep drops, they never seem to jump into a lane to make plays on the ball...that however has been par for the course here for years, as our defense just doesnt make plays on the ball and hasnt since Mr Zimmer arrived as a DB coach years ago...its like they have been told to tackle the guy at all costs, even if it means letting an easy int or deflection opportunity pass by

this teams biggest problem (and has been for years) is an inability to generate any kind of consistent pass rush...its why they blow so many 4th qtr leads and why we see so many ridiculous 1st down conversions against us (3rd and 27's, 4th and 15's, 4th and 20's etc etc)

David

 

[Z-Man]

Sorry, but that's BS.
Joey Porter (10.5 sacks) and Clark Haggins (9 sacks) for the Steelers. Their defense is the main reason they're in the Super Bowl. Are they getting killed?Haggans and Porter were DE's in college.

The Chargers had Merriman (10 sacks) and Foley and Phillips on the other side (combined 11 sacks). I'll go back through the Steelers 3-4 history and get all their starting OLB's stats if I need to. They had Kevin Greene and Greg Lloyd starting in their last Super Bowl appearance.

Now Parcells may not want 2 pass rushing types at OLB but to say a defense will get killed starting rush linebackers at both OLB spots has been right here proven false.

What people need to realize is that we're not looking for another Ware. YOu don't put the same pass-rusher type guy on both sides of the 3-4.

Some of these OLB's are better equipped to pass rush off the weak side due to their size and strength limitations. Others are better suited to play over the TE...they blitz now and then as a change up, but usually they have to take on the TE, guard against the run, and play like a REAL lb, not a standup DE.

Lawrence Tayler was the stand up DE...BAnks was the real LB.

Believe me, the OLB we're looking for now is NOT going to be a tweener who played DE in college. YOu can't play two guys like that who aren't natural LBs...your defense would get killed. The lb who plays opposite Ware will have to be big and strong enough to play over the TE, instinctive enough to play off the ball like a real LB, able to cover TEs and RBs in pass coverage, and hopefully be a good enough pass rusher to be an effective blitzer.

Ware is a pass rusher...the other LB is merely a blitzer who comes occasionally...you can't rush 5 guys most of the time, leaving only two ILB's in coverage.

 

[AsthmaField]

Sorry, but that's BS.
Joey Porter (10.5 sacks) and Clark Haggins (9 sacks) for the Steelers. Their defense is the main reason they're in the Super Bowl. Are they getting killed?Haggans and Porter were DE's in college.

The Chargers had Merriman (10 sacks) and Foley and Phillips on the other side (combined 11 sacks). I'll go back through the Steelers 3-4 history and get all their starting OLB's stats if I need to. They had Kevin Greene and Greg Lloyd starting in their last Super Bowl appearance.

Now Parcells may not want 2 pass rushing types at OLB but to say a defense will get killed starting rush linebackers at both OLB spots has been right here proven false.

Those guys were pass rushers... but I think what he might have been saying is that guys like Lloyd were LB's in college... not converted DE's. I'm sure you could find examples of college DE's who were then converted to SOLB's in a pro 3-4... but I'd think that would be the exception more than the rule. Most (I think without looking it up) were just bigger LB's from college who could play SOLB in a 3-4... not DE's like Ware.

Like I said, Lloyd was a LB in college who had experience in coverage and running sideline to sideline against the run. Foley was a LB in college too.

So, I'm not speaking for Wayne... but I think he wasn't saying the SOLB couldn't be a pass rusher... he was saying that guy needs to be a more complete LB and him being a pass rusher is just an extra plus. ie. that typically, that guy won't be a converted DE because he'll have to drop into coverage and will have typical LB resposabilities more that the WOLB (Ware) will. Clearly, having a guy like Lloyd is just having a talented guy who can also rush the QB.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Those guys were pass rushers... but I think what he might have been saying is that guys like Lloyd were LB's in college... not converted DE's. I'm sure you could find examples of college DE's who were then converted to SOLB's in a pro 3-4... but I'd think that would be the exception more than the rule. Most (I think without looking it up) were just bigger LB's from college who could play SOLB in a 3-4... not DE's like Ware.

Like I said, Lloyd was a LB in college who had experience in coverage and running sideline to sideline against the run. Foley was a LB in college too.

So, I'm not speaking for Wayne... but I think he wasn't saying the SOLB couldn't be a pass rusher... he was saying that guy needs to be a more complete LB and him being a pass rusher is just an extra plus. ie. that typically, that guy won't be a converted DE because he'll have to drop into coverage and will have typical LB resposabilities more that the WOLB (Ware) will. Clearly, having a guy like Lloyd is just having a talented guy who can also rush the QB.

Well said.

Exactly.

Give me a guy that can contain the run first, handle pass coverage responsibilities second and rush the passer third.

 

[AsthmaField]

Give me a guy that can contain the run first, handle pass coverage responsibilities second and rush the passer third.

I agree... for SOLB. The WOLB in a 3-4 needs to be able to get to the QB first and foremost. In short, the WOLB needs to be, well, Ware. That's why I think we have a lot of potential to be a good 3-4 team by this coming season... because Ware should be a good one.

Unlike most in this thread, I think that Ware, by the end of his rookie season, was playing his run and coverage resposibilities well. He always had contain in the last half of the season and actually made some real good plays behind the line of scrimmage in the running game.

Fujita? Now that's a different story. IMO getting someone to play that SOLB position, getting our Carl Banks, is priority #1 on defense. A good, solid, big LB playing opposite Ware will take our defense up a few notches. If he can be a good pass rusher especially. Carpenter or someone like him, is a real possibility at #18, I think. And it could be a converted DE like Lawson if they think he really can handle the run and pass coverage duties... still, like Wayne said... I think thats not as likely as a big Carpenter type LB.

It should be interesting... and who knows, Burnett with a year of lifting and training could be that SOLB. He definately would have the pass rush part down. I still see him taking Dat's place though. He's some kind of athlete... if he can stay healthy (that's up in the air) and pick up the mental part (he's definately smart enough) he could be a good one.

 

[Clove]

Well said.

Exactly.

Give me a guy that can contain the run first, handle pass coverage responsibilities second and rush the passer third.

Give me a guy that can rush the passer, and when they decide to pass the ball, I can then create turnovers. All Tweeners can stop the run, and have the talent to move in space.

I saw Anderson (A tweener) last night, one on one with a receiver and shut him down.

Give me talent and guys who can get after the QB, and then get me some ILB'rs who can stuff the run on the inside. And BTW, ILB'rs responsibility is to shut down the run on both perimeters and not just the inside.

I'll take Anderson and Ware, plug in Burnett and Ma'ake at tackle, and I'll go to war with any team in the league.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Give me a guy that can rush the passer, and when they decide to pass the ball, I can then create turnovers. All Tweeners can stop the run, and have the talent to move in space.

I saw Anderson (A tweener) last night, one on one with a receiver and shut him down.

Give me talent and guys who can get after the QB, and then get me some ILB'rs who can stuff the run on the inside. And BTW, ILB'rs responsibility is to shut down the run on both perimeters and not just the inside.

I'll take Anderson and Ware, plug in Burnett and Ma'ake at tackle, and I'll go to war with any team in the league.

A good offensive line can always neutralize a good pass rush. Go back and watch the last two Super Bowls. Watch how New England totally handled two very good pass rushes using short drops and good protection schemes.

And typically it is not the ILB's that are assigned with outside containment. If your outside linebackers can't contain, which ours couldn't on many occassions, then your defense is going to get run up and down the field on... and over the last part of the season ours was.

Pass coverage? Our linebackers sucked doing that to for the most part.

 

[RealCowboyfan]

Hey people with speed and size like Victors 6-4 275 he can play linebacker and nine times out of ten if he does good in the combine he will be our 18th pick just like Demarcus Ware... He'll just start on the other side of Demarcus Ware as a pass-rusher...

But Im hoping that Parcells let this kid play at his natural weight... Like someone said this is the next Willie Meginist...

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Wow... Ware isn't a "real" linebacker? What does that mean?

Of course he's a real LB, and a prototypical one at that.

But if you think Lawrence Taylor wasn't a real LB either, I guess there's no use arguing the point.

 

[RealCowboyfan]

Wow! Thats alot of size and speed. Reminds me more of Willie Meginest than Ware. He would be an intriguing pick. Would be an ideal canidate for the 2nd to 3rd round.

Let me tell you.. guess what if he have a vicious combine... Cowboys will draft him....1st Round... @ first Demarcus Ware was consider a 2nd to 3rd Round until Cowboys start getting really looks at him...

We could draft him and Manny Lawson why not? solify the defense...

Why not do this for one 3-4 play...

OLB>>>>>>>>ILB>>>>>>ILB>>>>>>>>OLB
D.Ware------R.Lewis-----B.James-----K.Thorton

DE>>>>>>>>>>>DT>>>>>>>>>>>DE
M.Lawson-------J.Ferguson-------V.Adeyanju

DOOMSDAY IS BACK>>>^Just for one play

D.Ware= Pass-rusher
R.Lewis= Motivating Intimidator
B.James= Balanced
K.Thorton= Pass-rusher
M.Lawson= Pass-rusher
V.Adeyanju= Pass-rusher
J.Ferguson= Plug up the middle

 

[neosapien23]

Let me tell you.. guess what if he have a vicious combine... Cowboys will draft him....1st Round... @ first Demarcus Ware was consider a 2nd to 3rd Round until Cowboys start getting really looks at him...

Thats true, but unlike Ware this guy hasn't done much in college. The combine could boost his overall value though. I hope you are just joking about drafting him and Lawson. We still need linemen, a free safety, future QB and WR, unless we fill those needs in FA.

 

[Hoods]

His ability to contain vs the run is very not good at this point.

WHAT? LOL... He lead the team in tackles behind the LOS and I saw him knock off blocks to get to the runningbacks many times! You are wrong. He is above average, imo.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

WHAT? LOL... He lead the team in tackles behind the LOS and I saw him knock off blocks to get to the runningbacks many times! You are wrong. He is above average, imo.

Ware is way above average when it comes to pass rush. He "MAY" be average at containing the run... certainly no better than that. And in coverage he's lost.

 

[big dog cowboy]

R.Lewis

If you are referring to Ray Lewis, he won't be a Cowboy.

 

[AsthmaField]

Let me tell you.. guess what if he have a vicious combine... Cowboys will draft him....1st Round... @ first Demarcus Ware was consider a 2nd to 3rd Round until Cowboys start getting really looks at him...

We could draft him and Manny Lawson why not? solify the defense...

Why not do this for one 3-4 play...

OLB>>>>>>>>ILB>>>>>>ILB>>>>>>>>OLB
D.Ware------R.Lewis-----B.James-----K.Thorton

DE>>>>>>>>>>>DT>>>>>>>>>>>DE
M.Lawson-------J.Ferguson-------V.Adeyanju

DOOMSDAY IS BACK>>>^Just for one play

D.Ware= Pass-rusher
R.Lewis= Motivating Intimidator
B.James= Balanced
K.Thorton= Pass-rusher
M.Lawson= Pass-rusher
V.Adeyanju= Pass-rusher
J.Ferguson= Plug up the middle

Even if you completely forget that we have M. Spears and C. Canty (who are very good 3-4 DE's) the very idea of using Lawson and Adeyanju at DE in a 3-4 is beyond crazy. Lawson is too small to be a 4-3 DE... much less a 3-4 DE. Teams would have 500 yards rushing on our defense and the DE's would never get to pass rush because the offense would never have to pass.

Why stop there? We can get Williams and Huff to play DE... they're really fast... tackles would have a tough time with their speed! Doomsday is back baby!!! We could let Lawson play NT! He'd be the fastest NT in the NFL... no one would even be close!

Do you not realize that 3-4 DE's are usually in the 300 pound range? You want Lawson, who is all of 240, to play DE in the 3-4???? Did you not notice all the press saying that Ellis is to small at 280?

Just insane. Now, what about last years draft when we used a #1 on Spears and got lucky with Canty? You want to just throw those guys away? We're just starting to get a good group for the 3-4 and Spears and Canty are a big part of that. Why don't we keep them a little while.

 

[RealCowboyfan]

Just saying that if you put that speed and pass-rushers out there our conerback will like like stars... I hope Aaron Glenn comes back for another season...

 

[Chuck 54]

First, I think Joey Porter is a great LB. Yes, he rushes the QB, but he's a very good all around LB...hopefully that is what Ware will be in time. What I'm saying is that Ware is still in the developmental stages...he's not a solid LB yet...he doesn't cover well, and frankly his entire game was less than exceptional until the Carolina game.

Look at his stats again...he had 3 sacks and all 3 forced fumbles on the same 3 plays against Carolina where he didn't even get a hit on the QB...I'm not complaining..those were great plays for us and him, but take away that one good game and his entire season was nothing to write home about, especially since he was all but invisible the entire middle of the season, especially in our big games with NY and Washington.

He played well for a rookie, but that's my point. Right now, we can't afford to bring in a guy who isn't ready to play OLB, drop into coverage and cover the TE regularly...we can't bring both OLBs on an every down basis next year. Besides, hopefully Thornton will be a similar type player anyway. I don't think we'll use another first rounder on a DE/LB project. We are going to draft either a guy who actually played on his feet behind the line at LB this year or a DB or an OL.

I see no way we'll use our first rounder on the DL or QB or RB or WR or TE.

We'll all have a much better picture of the entire situation after free agency.

It won't shock me to see us trade down or out of round 1 this year.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

minor detail...underscoring means emphasizing...I'm sure you are being critical of my post for perhaps underestimating.

And you are correct...in my opinion Ware is a long way from becoming a real lb. He's a stand up DE...I don't call that run support...it's his job to protect the outside the same as a DE in the 4-3....he doesn't do well in pass coverage...thus he wasn't asked to do it much. He didn't even line up on different sides of the field much...he basically lined up as a DE on the right side of the defense almost exclusively.

Maybe he has the talent and ability to become a LB...I won't suggest he doesn't, but nothing he did this year indicated that he's a real LB. Right now he's the OLB in charge of getting after the QB in the 3-4. I don't see how you could argue that. When asked to cover RB's or TE's, he tended to lose them, especially in the red zone for TD's...I think that's why we used him mostly as a 1 trick pony this year. He'd never even played on this feet in college before, so this is all a major transition for him.

uh, Ware was asked to pass defend quite a bit this year, in fact, his agent kinda complained a few days ago that Ware wasnt allowed to get after the QB as much as he should of, cuz he was asked to stay back in coverage alot

is he great at it? close? hell no, but that's expecting a little too much from a DE in college in his rookie year, starting from Day 1

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ayodele is seeming more and more like the solution. He plays the strong side and can help in the running game/cover TE's/ and rush the QB. IMO we will sign a FA and draft a guy like him on the second day.

you guys think Ware is a one-trick pony? well Ayodele is basically only a 2-down LB cuz he's that horrible in coverage