No HOF Presentation for TO

[OmerV]

I'm looking at the response you made now. Your comment is adding to what Owens has publicly stated, he obviously DOES care about the HOF. Which is exactly why he's holding his own ceremony, the issue he has is how he's being treated.

So now knowing that and seeing as how the voters overlook Moss and how he behaved on the field and in locker rooms, it kinda seems like Owens has a legitimate reason to be upset, yes?

And if we're bringing up "charity work", that's off the field stuff. Voters have stated they don't take this stuff account, which is why thuggish behavior outside of the league isn't factored in - that's the justification they have for allowing Ray Lewis to be a first ballot. So the good things you do off the field are factored in, the bad? No. And Owens has multiple charities he has donated to or created as well.

So the main factor here has always been media fabrication and narrative. They branded someone a villain long ago and they have stuck with it even if it's at the expense of hypocrisy, double standards, and turning a blind eye to similar players or worse.

Owens, despite his flaws, is in the right here. And expect more people to come out and criticize the HOF for allowing in actual thugs while demonizing Owens who was, at most, a jerk in the locker room.

You are still trying to base an argument with me on things I haven’t said. I never said TO didn’t have some reason to feel he was unfairly left out, yet your comments all seem to suggest I have said that.

As for the public perception, you are going round and around, first seeming to disagree with my comments about that, then turning back to saying it does matter. The reality is, of course it matters, whether a voter will admit it or not. Perception has always mattered, both negative and positive perceptions that can either result in a player getting ,more or less consideration for the HOF than may be they deserve.

The TV aspect is a big part of the perception. After retiring, about the only time anything public comes up about TO it is negative, but people can watch Moss on TV every week, and he comes across as a good guy, and that has a huge effect on how people view him. That doesn’t magically make the negative moments during his career better, but it does affect the image people have in their minds. Like it or not, packaging does affect perception.

 

[Verdict]

Damn V, you just tossed at least a 3rd of all members.......I know

I'm hard core. What can I say? Lol

 

[mattjames2010]

Part of me wonders if Owens wasn’t deeply insulted that Moss was made a first ballot... their numbers are identical to the point of being uncanny, and Moss also played on five teams, had locker room shenanigans, didn’t get along with media, got caught with marijuana, dogged it with the Raiders and was arrested as a player. Yet he sailed right in. Got to sting for Owens... and maybe that was another reason for petty voters to pull the lever for Randy.

Yep, he's essentially getting a backhanded compliment for his career while being told he should be standing next to Moss (who had similar problems) and White Suit Ray Lewis pretending he's a preacher and talking to Owens like he's a father figure.

I wouldn't want to be there either - it's a tainted ceremony.

 

[Kevinicus]

Yet everyone in the world wants to be respected ..... and I don’t believe for a second you are exempt from that.

Everyone in the world? I don't think so.

 

[mattjames2010]

You are still trying to base an argument with me on things I haven’t said. I never said TO didn’t have some reason to feel he was unfairly left out, yet your comments all seem to suggest I have said that.

As for the public perception, you are going round and around, first seeming to disagree with my comments about that, then turning back to saying it does matter. The reality is, of course it matters, whether a voter will admit it or not. Perception has always mattered, both negative and positive perceptions that can either result in a player getting ,more or less consideration for the HOF than may be they deserve.

The TV aspect is a big part of the perception. After retiring, about the only time anything public comes up about TO it is negative, but people can watch Moss on TV every week, and he comes across as a good guy, and that has a huge effect on how people view him. That doesn’t magically make the negative moments during his career better, but it does affect the image people have in their minds. Like it or not, packaging does affect perception.

No, I'm arguing against you adding to what Owens has said. Again, I'm reading your response and who you responded to.

For the last time, Owens problem seems to be with the voters and how he's being treated compared to others. Not that he has a problem with the HOF itself - he obviously cares about the recognition.

 

[OmerV]

Everyone in the world? I don't think so.

Okay, we can exclude people in a coma or who have gone insane. The obvious point I was making is that it was nonsense for you to act as if feeling respected means absolutely nothing. It is important to at least almost everyone everywhere. People dont want to be viewed by others as inconsequential, or a clown, or someone who hasn’t achieved or earned anything. They don’t want their kids to think of them as bad parents, they don’t want their co-workers to think they don’t carry their share of the load, they want to have friends, and friendships are borne, among other things, out of mutual respect, and definitely perpetuated by it.

 

[Kevinicus]

Okay, we can exclude people in a coma or who have gone insane. The obvious point I was making is that it was nonsense for you to act as if feeling respected means absolutely nothing. It is important to at least almost everyone everywhere. People dont want to be viewed by others as inconsequential, or a clown, or someone who hasn’t achieved or earned anything. They don’t want their kids to think of them as bad parents, they don’t want their co-workers to think they don’t carry their share of the load, they want to have friends, and friendships are borne, among other things, out of mutual respect, and definitely perpetuated by it.

I'm sorry, worrying a great deal about what other people think about you is generally a weakness, and there are a great number of people in the world who feel that way.

And there is a world of difference between your children and some people who happened to be in the same profession as you...when you are all already retired.

 

[OmerV]

No, I'm arguing against you adding to what Owens has said. Again, I'm reading your response and who you responded to.

For the last time, Owens problem seems to be with the voters and how he's being treated compared to others. Not that he has a problem with the HOF itself - he obviously cares about the recognition.

That’s what you are saying now, but that’s not what you have been saying. You change what you claim I’ve said with almost every post you make.

In any case, are you under the impression the HOF voters were formed independently from the Hall of Fame, that for no particular reason this independent group votes on people they would like to see in the Hall of Fame, and that for no particular reason the Hall of Fame goes along with their vote despite their being no connection between them? And are you under the impression some entity other than the Hall of Fame is holding the ceremony in Canton?

The Hall of Fame is in charge of the whole enchilada - guidelines for eligibility, the voting structure, who the voters are, and whoever gets in (or doesn’t) is wholly a result of the system they installed and control. TO skippimg the HOF ceremony isn’t impacting Joe Bob Sportswriter from the Boston Globe, it’s impacting the HOF ceremony created and conducted by the HOF.

 

[mattjames2010]

That’s what you are saying now, but that’s not what you have been saying. You change what you claim I’ve said with almost every post you make.

In any case, are you under the impression the HOF voters were formed independently from the Hall of Fame, that for no particular reason this independent group votes on people they would like to see in the Hall of Fame, and that for no particular reason the Hall of Fame goes along with their vote despite their being no connection between them? And are you under the impression some entity other than the Hall of Fame is holding the ceremony in Canton?

The Hall of Fame is in charge of the whole enchilada - guidelines for eligibility, the voting structure, who the voters are, and whoever gets in (or doesn’t) is wholly a result of the system they installed and control. TO skippimg the HOF ceremony isn’t impacting Joe Bob Sportswriter from the Boston Globe, it’s impacting the HOF ceremony created and conducted by the HOF.

That's what my argument HAS ALWAYS been - which is why my first response to you is trying to get you to discuss, you know, the hypocrisy and double standards of voters since that's who TO is directing his hate towards. Not the HOF in general or the recognition he's getting....

He's upset about the backhanded compliment he's getting while others around him were similar to him or worse and they got into the HOF without scrutiny.

And nothing in your comment is changing what I'm saying. It's a word salad with some questions. But it seems now, when you understood Owens reasoning, you are sorta agreeing with me? So why argue?

 

[OmerV]

I'm sorry, worrying a great deal about what other people think about you is generally a weakness, and there are a great number of people in the world who feel that way.

And there is a world of difference between your children and some people who happened to be in the same profession as you...when you are all already retired.

Wanting to be respected is not the same as worrying all the time about what people think of you. If you think people don’t care anything about respect you are either lying or an idiot. You don’t have friendships without it. You don’t get jobs and promotions and raises without it. You don’t get opportunities in business, or to participate in activities that affect other people without it. What do mass shooters have in common - they are outsiders who are looked down on by their peers.

And, again don’t give me the nonsense that you are immune from wanting friendships and advancement at work and opportunities professionally and socially.

 

[OmerV]

That's what my argument HAS ALWAYS been - which is why my first response to you is trying to get you to discuss, you know, the hypocrisy and double standards of voters since that's who TO is directing his hate towards. Not the HOF in general or the recognition he's getting....

He's upset about the backhanded compliment he's getting while others around him were similar to him or worse and they got into the HOF without scrutiny.

And nothing in your comment is changing what I'm saying. It's a word salad with some questions. But it seems now, when you understood Owens reasoning, you are sorta agreeing with me? So why argue?

No, you were saying I justified Moss getting in and not TO, and you were suggesting I thought TO had no basis for a complaint even though I never said either.

And no, I’m not agreeing with you. It’s ridiculous to act as if you can separate the HOF from the guidelines, processes and procedures the HOF creates and uses. That’s like saying it’s the fault of the loan officer at the Bank for giving you a certain interest rate even though the bank itself is who created the guidelines for what interests rates a person qualifies for. And, again skipping the HOF ceremony isn’t affecting someone who didn’t vote for TO 2 years ago, it is affecting the HOF, who is the entity conducting the ceremony and handing out the award. It’s a stupid argument to suggest TO is not snubbing the very entity that is doing that.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

The TV in the restaurant I ate lunch at had something on the screen about TO not getting presented individually at the HOF ceremony. The volume wasn't up so I couldn't hear the discussion, but I assume the HOF decided that if TO refuses to come to the ceremony in person, they won't have a segment of the ceremony dedicated to him the way there is with other inductees. I'm guessing they will announce him simply as an inductee, but with no time allotted to talk about his career.

Where did you eat?

 

[OmerV]

Where did you eat?

The HOF Bridesmaid Deli in Canton, OH

 

[DejectedFan1996]

Part of me wonders if Owens wasn’t deeply insulted that Moss was made a first ballot... their numbers are identical to the point of being uncanny, and Moss also played on five teams, had locker room shenanigans, didn’t get along with media, got caught with marijuana, dogged it with the Raiders and was arrested as a player. Yet he sailed right in. Got to sting for Owens... and maybe that was another reason for petty voters to pull the lever for Randy.

Unlike TO, Moss made mends with the media and ‘played by their rules’ post NFL career. Owens continued to be critical of the media, which are the same folks voting him in which gives credence to how flawed the process is that feelings can prevent someone from getting in.

 

[OmerV]

Unlike TO, Moss made mends with the media and ‘played by their rules’ post NFL career. Owens continued to be critical of the media, which are the same folks voting him in which gives credence to how flawed the process is that feelings can prevent someone from getting in.

That’s inherent with any election process though. The 9nly way to prevent personal feelings and perceptions from coloring the vote would be to eliminate voting altogether and use a purely statistical measure, but I think that might even be more flawed.

 

[Aviano90]

I hope his gold jacket gets lost in transit.

 

[Dre11]

No, he isn’t a first ballot hall of farmer by their standard, because there is no standard that voters have to go solely by stats.

That's Bs, I've heard former HOF voters explain its what you've done between the white lines. Tony Kornhiser has said this many times on his radio show.

 

[DejectedFan1996]

That’s inherent with any election process though. The 9nly way to prevent personal feelings and perceptions from coloring the vote would be to eliminate voting altogether and use a purely statistical measure, but I think that might even be more flawed.

Personal feelings getting in the way of the Football Hall of Fame and being “ok” is absolutely bonkers. The process is flawed simply for the fact that we have individuals, including those on this site (not you) that believe TO is a horrible human for being a perceived locker room cancer, but someone who stabs a teammate, an individual affiliated with murder, and a rapist are not? Makes sense LOO

 

[Dre11]

How about the respect of the other members of the HOF and according to a couple polls on national sites, the majority of NFL fans. Whiny boy is once again showing his 3 year old mentality. Gee they didn't vote me in 1st ballot so I'm not going to go to their ceremony. The thing he's been whining about, not being in the HOL and when they finally let him in he shows his 3 year old mentality again. I don't care what numbers he piled up in his 16 or 17 year career, he's no Professional and he isn't HOF material.
.

Who cares about some stupid polls, most fans don't like him anyway, and his skipping has nothing to do with respect of the other players, that's some bs you came up with. He can say his piece about the other inductees at his speech in Tennessee, it will mean the same from there as it would in Ohio.

 

[OmerV]

Personal feelings getting in the way of the Football Hall of Fame and being “ok” is absolutely bonkers. The process is flawed simply for the fact that we have individuals, including those on this site (not you) that believe TO is a horrible human for being a perceived locker room cancer, but someone who stabs a teammate, an individual affiliated with murder, and a rapist are not? Makes sense LOO

It’s not that it’s okay necessarily, it’s just that it’s humans doing the voting, and humans have thoughts and feelings. I really don’t think it was vendettas by the media that was the problem anyway, I think it was the perception they had of him as a disruptive player on a team.