RELEASED Nolan Carroll Released

[Nightman]

$4 million for absolutely nothing.

Put whatever percentages on it you'd like to in an effort to make it look less stupid and wasteful.

Any percentages you want to use will be more than the 0 return they got on their investment.

Keep on trying to polish that turd.

You aren't Columbus for discovering it was a bad signing...... you are Chicken Little-ing it though

I assure you the sky isn't falling.......take it down about 6 notches

 

[Stash]

You aren't Columbus for discovering it was a bad signing...... you are Chicken Little-ing it though

I assure you the sky isn't falling.......take it down about 6 notches

I'm saying nothing more than it was $4 million for nothing. That's bad no matter how anyone tries to spin it.

And not only did you sign the bum, you left both of your starting corners walk in the process.

I can call a screwup for what it is and not have to jump through hoops trying to make it somehow look less stupid.

 

[xwalker]

Was Wrong Way Feldman the pilot?

Your memory of episodes is better than mine.

It was back when smoking was still allowed on planes and he puffed away the entire flight.

 

[Corso]

I sat next to him on a plane once...

That has the potential to be a harrowing story...
Do tell.

 

[Nightman]

I'm saying nothing more than it was $4 million for nothing. That's bad no matter how anyone tries to spin it.

And not only did you sign the bum, you left both of your starting corners walk in the process.

I can call a screwup for what it is and not have to jump through hoops trying to make it somehow look less stupid.

You often get 0 return on insurance policies but they are the cost of doing business- Home, Life and Auto..... but the young DBs are ready enough to let him go

 

[Stash]

You often get 0 return on insurance policies but they are the cost of doing business- Home, Life and Auto..... but the young DBs are ready enough to let him go

I see one that's ready - Lewis.

Awuzie can't stay on the field.

And Brown has been much more inconsistent so far this year than last.

But Carroll wasn't signed as insurance, he was signed as a bridge to get them to next year when the young guys were all ready and experienced. That failed miserably. If he were insurance at all, he'd still be here.

It speaks loud and clear that they'd rather eat the $4 million loss to be totally rid of him than keep him around, even as insurance.

 

[Jerryrage]

They need to quit bottom feeding during free agency, buy quality or just draft them

or just draft them. That scouting department is the worst

 

[Cmac]

They need to quit bottom feeding during free agency, buy quality or just draft them

Couldn't agree more....going after bargain basement and everything must go deals. I thought they should have pressed the Richard Sherman deal.

 

[Sydla]

You often get 0 return on insurance policies but they are the cost of doing business- Home, Life and Auto..... but the young DBs are ready enough to let him go

This whole "insurance" policy angle being played has my chuckling. It's basically a nice way to give the front office some cover for signing a guy they shouldn't have signed.

It's clear they thought he was a quality CB. They drooled over him for two straight offseasons. If they wanted a warm body as "insurance" there were cheaper options out there, including guys they once also tried to sign - Patrick Robinson, for example, on a one year $750K contract.

They thought Carroll was going to be a solid, performing, vet CB for them. They realized he was not that good and throw in a concussion and, to their credit, they just figured what's the point keeping this bag of dirt around anymore............

 

[Idgit]

This whole "insurance" policy angle being played has my chuckling. It's basically a nice way to give the front office some cover for signing a guy they shouldn't have signed.............

Google "Nolan Carroll signing insurance" and you'll see it was something said by various media outlets at the time he was brought in. He was brought in as insurance prior to the draft. That's not a new opinion, and it's entirely consistent with what the team then did with their picks.

It also doesn't mean they signed the right policy, so there goes the 'nice way of giving the team cover' angle.

It sounds more to me like you want this to be a bigger deal than just a team giving up on a vet starter with concussion issues who's been outplayed by a rookie draft pick.

 

[Sydla]

Google "Nolan Carroll signing insurance" and you'll see it was something said by various media outlets at the time he was brought in. He was brought in as insurance prior to the draft. That's not a new opinion, and it's entirely consistent with what the team then did with their picks.

It also doesn't mean they signed the right policy, so there goes the 'nice way of giving the team cover' angle.

It sounds more to me like you want this to be a bigger deal than just a team giving up on a vet starter with concussion issues who's been outplayed by a rookie draft pick.

It's a bigger deal because once again it shows the flaws in this team's free agency process. When you constantly shop in the bargain bin these are the results you likely are going to get.

Again, I didn't realize that when you sign "insurance" it has to be on a crappy player that costs you cap space the following year. If that's the thinking, then there were other options out there for "insurance" that would have left you in a better cap situation. You might have a point if Carroll was a cheap, one year rental but he was not. He was a guy they chased for two straight offseasons and gave a longer term deal to.

Why is it so hard for fans to just admit what is reality? They screwed up. They made a bad call on Carroll and realized it. It's a growing trend with their new dumpster diving FA plan.

 

[Idgit]

Nobody suggested that just because he was an insurance signing that he was a good signing. If he were a better player, he wouldn't have been cut in favor of a couple of rookies they happen to like.

It's not hard for fans to admit the signing was bad. It's been said several times in the thread. The point that's being made is that it turned out not to be that big a deal, because the young players are playing well, so it's not like there's been a gap where the team brought in a vet who can't play and the rookies aren't ready yet.

Why is it you seem to be struggling so much with the idea that this was just another 'sign and backfill' deal like they've done everyplace else on the roster? This is just how this team operates now.

I don't agree with your contention that it's been a particular problem or that it's a growing trend, either. This team has more talent than it's showing, and we're losing games because of poor (mostly defensive) execution. That needs to get fixed. But that's a separate topic, and we've already got a thread for that.

 

[Sydla]

Nobody suggested that just because he was an insurance signing that he was a good signing. If he were a better player, he wouldn't have been cut in favor of a couple of rookies they happen to like.

It's not hard for fans to admit the signing was bad. It's been said several times in the thread. The point that's being made is that it turned out not to be that big a deal, because the young players are playing well, so it's not like there's been a gap where the team brought in a vet who can't play and the rookies aren't ready yet.

Why is it you seem to be struggling so much with the idea that this was just another 'sign and backfill' deal like they've done everyplace else on the roster? This is just how this team operates now.

I don't agree with your contention that it's been a particular problem or that it's a growing trend, either. This team has more talent than it's showing, and we're losing games because of poor (mostly defensive) execution. That needs to get fixed. But that's a separate topic, and we've already got a thread for that.

It's a big deal in the sense that it's highlighting a flaw in this team's approach to roster building. They've eschewed the mid-level free agency market, where you can find quality players that fill real holes and you don't have cut within 12 months of signing them because you realize they kind of stink.

You continue to have a higher opinion of this team's talent level, and likely their coaching.

 

[Idgit]

...You continue to have a higher opinion of this team's talent level, and likely their coaching.

That's probably the difference in how we see things right now. I do think this team has talent, and I do like the coaching staff, overall.

Though, I am completely befuddled by how the defense has played here recently. Jaylon is lost in coverage and easy to isolate. They whiffed on that evaluation if they thought he was ready to start in a pinch. The tackling has been outright bad in several of the games--which is not something we normally see from Marinelli's teams. Run contain from the DL has been bad. LBs can't cover, can't get deep enough in drops, and we're still seeing blown assignments. Heath has been a liability too often at S, and nobody can take the ball away from the other team.

The defense looks poorly coached right now, for sure (the OL has, too, though that seems be improving here recently). I'm willing to give them more time to straighten it out, because the things that look so bad are not things we normally see from Marinelli's teams, but we're past the point of being able to use the talent as an excuse. I can live with incremental improvement over last year's squad, but what we're seeing is a big step back, overall.

 

[Sydla]

That's probably the difference in how we see things right now. I do think this team has talent, and I do like the coaching staff, overall.

Though, I am completely befuddled by how the defense has played here recently. Jaylon is lost in coverage and easy to isolate. They whiffed on that evaluation if they thought he was ready to start in a pinch. The tackling has been outright bad in several of the games--which is not something we normally see from Marinelli's teams. Run contain from the DL has been bad. LBs can't cover, can't get deep enough in drops, and we're still seeing blown assignments. Heath has been a liability too often at S, and nobody can take the ball away from the other team.

The defense looks poorly coached right now, for sure (the OL has, too, though that seems be improving here recently). I'm willing to give them more time to straighten it out, because the things that look so bad are not things we normally see from Marinelli's teams, but we're past the point of being able to use the talent as an excuse. I can live with incremental improvement over last year's squad, but what we're seeing is a big step back, overall.

They have talent. I mean they aren't the Browns for goodness sake.

They just don't have enough talent to be a legitimate threat to make a SB run. They have issues at DT, LB and even S on defense alone. And all those are issues that could have been handled if they had approached FA a bit differently than they did. Except they did what seems to be their new model of frugalness - just assume guys will be better than they actually are. That's how you end up with a guy like Paea, a DT with an injury history, being the solution at DT. And thinking a guy like Heath is the answer at S.

Just look at DT. Their approach to the 1 tech is abysmal. And we can't even use the "well he's just a bridge player for the young guys" excuse some want to use because we don't even invest in the 1 tech in the draft. They just think any schmuck off the street can handle that.

This team would be better off if they saved the $4MM on a wastoid like Carroll and used it to sign someone like Micah Hyde, for example. But Hyde is one of those mid-level guys that they simply don't even want to bother sniffing around. If he isn't in the bargain bin, they ain't looking.

 

[Stash]

It's a bigger deal because once again it shows the flaws in this team's free agency process. When you constantly shop in the bargain bin these are the results you likely are going to get.

Again, I didn't realize that when you sign "insurance" it has to be on a crappy player that costs you cap space the following year. If that's the thinking, then there were other options out there for "insurance" that would have left you in a better cap situation. You might have a point if Carroll was a cheap, one year rental but he was not. He was a guy they chased for two straight offseasons and gave a longer term deal to.

Why is it so hard for fans to just admit what is reality? They screwed up. They made a bad call on Carroll and realized it. It's a growing trend with their new dumpster diving FA plan.

Don't waste your time.

Let him bloody his fingers typing away in some vain effort to minimize this screwup.

Now the buzzword is "insurance" in some effort to make things look better. The guy was the projected starter going into the season, paid a guaranteed $4 million, and jettisoned 5 games in, after playing in 1 full game. That's flat-out, egg on your face, failure. Nothing less.

He wasn't "insurance". He was a one-year bridge player to get you by until the rookies were ready. And even if he were "insurance", that still doesn't explain an outright release 5 games in. Nothing does.

This isn't about being in such great shape with the rookies, it's about realizing that Carroll can't play at all and you made a mistake. And you'd rather be done than keep him around in any capacity, "insurance" or otherwise.

This team is far from being in good shape in their secondary and they have exactly one rookie cornerback playing right now. But yeah, keep trying to sell people on the idea that there's no more room at the inn back there.

I expect the next thing we'll read is someone suddenly taking up Bene Benwikere and how "he's not so bad".

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[Idgit]

They have talent. I mean they aren't the Browns for goodness sake.

They just don't have enough talent to be a legitimate threat to make a SB run. They have issues at DT, LB and even S on defense alone. And all those are issues that could have been handled if they had approached FA a bit differently than they did. Except they did what seems to be their new model of frugalness - just assume guys will be better than they actually are. That's how you end up with a guy like Paea, a DT with an injury history, being the solution at DT. And thinking a guy like Heath is the answer at S.

Just look at DT. Their approach to the 1 tech is abysmal. And we can't even use the "well he's just a bridge player for the young guys" excuse some want to use because we don't even invest in the 1 tech in the draft. They just think any schmuck off the street can handle that.

This team would be better off if they saved the $4MM on a wastoid like Carroll and used it to sign someone like Micah Hyde, for example. But Hyde is one of those mid-level guys that they simply don't even want to bother sniffing around. If he isn't in the bargain bin, they ain't looking.

We've lost a lot of carefully-placed bets, but the issue is more with whiffing on the players they brought in than it is with the approach. At LB, apart from the two best backers being down to injury, you've got the whiff on Smith. At S, they thought they had two guys they'd developed in that position group. Heath to take the defensive snaps, and Frasier to back-fill on STs and fill in on defense. That's more a whiff on evaluating who they had than it is a failure to bring in a player like Hyde. I really do think they thought Heath would take the next step, and he's regressed.

At CB, as we've covered, they brought in a bridge player with the goal to backfill the position group with rookies. It's actually the least of the problems since it looks like Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods can actually all play. This is why I don't think the whiff on Carroll is all that significant.

DT, one tech, though, is another matter. We let McClain walk and cut Thornton. Now we've got Price there as a run stopper and a bunch of guys who are better fit as pass rushers. That was a significant miscalculation.

I don't disagree that we need to be looking to make more impact signings in FA. I'd rather not go crazy with it, but signings like Thornton, or someone like Hyde make sense. I'd still prefer we keep our own and offer larger deals to Church or McClain in those situations, since we already know they fit the system, but you're right that you have to use all the avenues available. I do think we'll do more of that for a year or two now that we're getting out from under Tony's contract. We're still not going to go crazy with it, though.

 

[Sydla]

We've lost a lot of carefully-placed bets, but the issue is more with whiffing on the players they brought in than it is with the approach. At LB, apart from the two best backers being down to injury, you've got the whiff on Smith. At S, they thought they had two guys they'd developed in that position group. Heath to take the defensive snaps, and Frasier to back-fill on STs and fill in on defense. That's more a whiff on evaluating who they had than it is a failure to bring in a player like Hyde. I really do think they thought Heath would take the next step, and he's regressed.

At CB, as we've covered, they brought in a bridge player with the goal to backfill the position group with rookies. It's actually the least of the problems since it looks like Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods can actually all play. This is why I don't think the whiff on Carroll is all that significant.

DT, one tech, though, is another matter. We let McClain walk and cut Thornton. Now we've got Price there as a run stopper and a bunch of guys who are better fit as pass rushers. That was a significant miscalculation.

I don't disagree that we need to be looking to make more impact signings in FA. I'd rather not go crazy with it, but signings like Thornton, or someone like Hyde make sense. I'd still prefer we keep our own and offer larger deals to Church or McClain in those situations, since we already know they fit the system, but you're right that you have to use all the avenues available. I do think we'll do more of that for a year or two now that we're getting out from under Tony's contract. We're still not going to go crazy with it, though.

This makes no sense.

It absolutely has to do with their approach. If you sift through the bargain bin for guys, which is clearly their approach to FA, you can't honestly be surprised when the hit rate is pretty low. Trying to blame it not on the approach but rather their evaluation of the players brought in is really semantics. Their approach is to bring in retreads and cheepo players. It shouldn't surprise anyone when their hit rate on that sucks.

Carroll was significant in the sense that they evaluated him as a guy who could play and handed him $4MM guaranteed and would be a cap hit over two seasons. You can try to hide behind this concept of "bridge" player but that doesn't change the fact they totally mis-evaluated his skill set. The fact we can compensate for that now because Lewis can play a little doesn't change the fact yet another of their dumpster dive moves was a bomb resulting in a guy who, frankly, wasn't all that good.

 

[waldoputty]

They have talent. I mean they aren't the Browns for goodness sake.

They just don't have enough talent to be a legitimate threat to make a SB run. They have issues at DT, LB and even S on defense alone. And all those are issues that could have been handled if they had approached FA a bit differently than they did. Except they did what seems to be their new model of frugalness - just assume guys will be better than they actually are. That's how you end up with a guy like Paea, a DT with an injury history, being the solution at DT. And thinking a guy like Heath is the answer at S.

Just look at DT. Their approach to the 1 tech is abysmal. And we can't even use the "well he's just a bridge player for the young guys" excuse some want to use because we don't even invest in the 1 tech in the draft. They just think any schmuck off the street can handle that.

This team would be better off if they saved the $4MM on a wastoid like Carroll and used it to sign someone like Micah Hyde, for example. But Hyde is one of those mid-level guys that they simply don't even want to bother sniffing around. If he isn't in the bargain bin, they ain't looking.

browns have arguably more talent than we do on defense.
i read as a foundation: myles garrett, peppers, jamie collin from patriots and 2nd rank cb on pff

 

[Idgit]

This makes no sense.

It absolutely has to do with their approach. If you sift through the bargain bin for guys, which is clearly their approach to FA, you can't honestly be surprised when the hit rate is pretty low. Trying to blame it not on the approach but rather their evaluation of the players brought in is really semantics. Their approach is to bring in retreads and cheepo players. It shouldn't surprise anyone when their hit rate on that sucks.

Carroll was significant in the sense that they evaluated him as a guy who could play and handed him $4MM guaranteed and would be a cap hit over two seasons. You can try to hide behind this concept of "bridge" player but that doesn't change the fact they totally mis-evaluated his skill set. The fact we can compensate for that now because Lewis can play a little doesn't change the fact yet another of their dumpster dive moves was a bomb resulting in a guy who, frankly, wasn't all that good.

It makes perfect sense. They guys you need to be looking at with this approach are the young players they are developing and not the stop-gap guys they've brought in, since that's where they're making the significant investment.

I've never suggested they didn't whiff on Carroll, and have consistently only said that it didn't matter that much that he ended up being such a short bridge since we actually do have young players behind him who appear to be stepping up. The fact that Lewis can actually play does, in fact, cover up for that FA whiff. That's exactly the point.

Your mistake in evaluating the approach is to assume a linear connection between price and talent. The whole reason we take the approach we do is because we think you have to overpay for good players in FA, you have to pay through the nose for premium players, the best players never become available at all, but that you can find values on average guys and role players once the market dies down. That approach makes sense from a cap perspective. But it means you have to find and develop your impact players in the draft. When those guys are out injured (Hitchens, Lee), or can't play (Smith, Heath), or take a step back (Brown, Jones, Wilson), *that's* what bites you. Not the market-rate contract you gave to the wrong guy to be a stop-gap CB for you while you backfilled with your 2nd and 3rd round picks.