Not Overly Impressed With Chance Warmack

[FuzzyLumpkins]

SEC hype yay!

I don't watch NCAA football so I have no idea. Either way, asking Womack to go outside meant he was on the turf and we know that he cannot anchor against NFL talent because he couldn't anchor against NCAA talent.

I watched 3 games so if that was the only meltdown then it makes no difference. The only reason why I watched the center was because of the combo blocks and it was easy to tell where the LG regardless of formation by finding him.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And Womack isn't even in the same ballpark athletically. You can tell that just by watching them move. For all of the talk of the ACC being inferior. Womack benefited more than a little from having that RT and C playing on the same line.

 

[burmafrd]

I needed a good laugh, and Fuzzy thinking he is an O line expert gave me one.


Now I see the problem. Fuzzy was looking at some backup named Womack.

 

[Idgit]

I needed a good laugh, and Fuzzy thinking he is an O line expert gave me one.

Now I see the problem. Fuzzy was looking at some backup named Womack.

Counter his arguments, then. I don't have a dog in the fight, but he's watching the tape and giving specifics. If you're going to disagree convincingly, you should probably do the same.

It's easy to stand outside the ring and say someone else's opinion isn't any good. A lot harder to put out your own counter-evaluation for scrutiny.

 

[Phrozen Phil]

I watched Cooper and he would anchor and not give ground. It was against MD and VT. He wasn't drive blocking DT downfield but he would drive them to the turf. He gets high in his stance when moving forward which limited his effectiveness. Temas would slant at him a lot and he didn't use his hands particularly well.

In space it's not even close. Womack spent a whole lot of time on the ground. Where Womack was exploding off the line straight ahead into the LB which it seem ND never adjusted to, Cooper was getting to the second level, turning and sealing guys. He could pick off safeties when he pulled where Womack dived and missed them.

I would rather pick up Richardson myself. Richardson has a good motor, explodes off the ball, a good feel for the game ie reading screens or disengaging and and angles for pursuit. All of that with talent around him that was clearly overmatched. TN and AL gameplanned around him extensively and he still made plays. He got washed out a lot because they shcemed around hhim but I was impressed.

I looked at a bit of Vacarro there isn't much out there. They played him a lot in the slot so I think the criticism of him not making plays on the ball is overrated. His ability to diagnose run/pass which is key for this defense was off the charts good but he was at best inconsistent tacking on passes/runs into his zone.

This is all youtube scouting obviously. I want to see Floyd and the Star guy. I haven't yet. But of the OG, Vacarro and Richardson I liked Richardson best by far, Cooper and Vacarro after that as a wash and I would trade down if all 3 were gone and Womack was left.

You sound like you're making the case to pick DT before G in round one and I've seen that argument elsewhere as well. I haven't seen enough to venture an opinion I'm comfortable with, but I do believe that both sides of the line need improvement and the first three rounds should (hopefully) provide talent to improve the overall play of our defensive and offensive interiors.

Do we focus on getting on of the OG's or do we look at one of the OT's and slide him inside? Brian Winters comes to mind. Do we look more carefully past Warmack and Cooper, as they may not last until our pick, and go in rounds two, three, and/or four with Barrett Jones, Larry Warford, Dallas Thomas, David Quessenbury, or Alvin Bailey?

Thses guys all get some good press, but I will confess that I haven't seen all of them play.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's burm, I disregard what he says for the most part as he never talks of specifics. I am trying to take a page out of DeGrasse's handbook and just let people uninterested in considering an empirical approach go.

It's not hard to tell when a guy cannot anchor. He takes steps back. It's easy to tell who the LG is as he is to the immediate left of the guy who hikes the ball. If he wants to make stuff up about me not being able to tell who Womack is then oh well.

 

[Phrozen Phil]

It's burm, I disregard what he says for the most part as he never talks of specifics. I am trying to take a page out of DeGrasse's handbook and just let people uninterested in considering an empirical approach go.

It's not hard to tell when a guy cannot anchor. He takes steps back. It's easy to tell who the LG is as he is to the immediate left of the guy who hikes the ball. If he wants to make stuff up about me not being able to tell who Womack is then oh well.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over that , but I'd welcome your feedback on my post. There's an awful lot of "stuff" out there on these players and it's hard to know what's legit.

 

[DFWJC]

It's burm, I disregard what he says for the most part as he never talks of specifics. I am trying to take a page out of DeGrasse's handbook and just let people uninterested in considering an empirical approach go.

It's not hard to tell when a guy cannot anchor. He takes steps back. It's easy to tell who the LG is as he is to the immediate left of the guy who hikes the ball. If he wants to make stuff up about me not being able to tell who Womack is then oh well.

You may want to spell Warmack's name correctly though.

I did it too...just saying.

 

[InmanRoshi]

A lot of these Alabama players have underachieved in the NFL j because Saban is running an NFL Triple AAA development team at Alabama, and they're just accustomed to pushing around overwhelmed opponents because they're so much superior from top to bottom than the units they're lining up against. Also, no interior OL plays on an island, and they're always combinations and techniques with the guy playing next to you. It just so happens that Warmack was playing next to a Center who won the Outland Trophy in 2011 for best offensive lineman in the country and the Remington Trophy for best center in the country last year. Eventually all 5 Alabama OL starters are going to probably start in the NFL. As a talent evaluator, you have to project how Warmack is going to perform when the guy lining up next to him at center isn't elite for his level and he's playing against an opponent who's on an equal playing field and has been through 5-6 years of an NFL strength and conditioning program themselves.

I haven't really studied Cooper much. I like Warmack better than I did DeCastro simply because I saw Warmack play against very good DTs, while I couldn't find a single NFL caliber DT that DeCastro matched up against. Ultimately I feel Warmack could adequately step in and fill a hole right away for the Cowboys. But ultimately, it's just a guard. Whether he knocks his guy 5 yards off the ball or just adequately seal blocks, the result is the same .... just one man on the defensive front 7 has been neutralize, and it's rarely the defense's most cataclysmic playmaker

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You sound like you're making the case to pick DT before G in round one and I've seen that argument elsewhere as well. I haven't seen enough to venture an opinion I'm comfortable with, but I do believe that both sides of the line need improvement and the first three rounds should (hopefully) provide talent to improve the overall play of our defensive and offensive interiors.

Do we focus on getting on of the OG's or do we look at one of the OT's and slide him inside? Brian Winters comes to mind. Do we look more carefully past Warmack and Cooper, as they may not last until our pick, and go in rounds two, three, and/or four with Barrett Jones, Larry Warford, Dallas Thomas, David Quessenbury, or Alvin Bailey?

Thses guys all get some good press, but I will confess that I haven't seen all of them play.

Those 4 are the 4 guys I see bandied about and on most mock drafts so I do some youtube scouting. I like to think I know what I am talking about but my experience at high level football is that of a fan.

I looked at those 4 guys and like Richardson quite a bit. Instinctive, explosive and high motor. He would get under OG pick them up and throw them to shed blocks. Powerful man.

And the thing was is they would scheme around him. They would run away from him. There was a goalline stand where the tried running right twice and got nowhere. Richardson got low and would wash out that side. Then they went left and walked in. But they would double him and have the backs key off him. He still kept coming.

I think we need a DT and he looks really good.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You may want to spell Warmack's name correctly though.

I did it too...just saying.

lol

yeah probably.

 

[Idgit]

Those 4 are the 4 guys I see bandied about and on most mock drafts so I do some youtube scouting. I like to think I know what I am talking about but my experience at high level football is that of a fan.

I looked at those 4 guys and like Richardson quite a bit. Instinctive, explosive and high motor. He would get under OG pick them up and throw them to shed blocks. Powerful man.

And the thing was is they would scheme around him. They would run away from him. There was a goalline stand where the tried running right twice and got nowhere. Richardson got low and would wash out that side. Then they went left and walked in. But they would double him and have the backs key off him. He still kept coming.

I think we need a DT and he looks really good.

If he's there, the right thing to do is probably to take him. We can upgrade our RG still in the second round.

If he's not there, and Vaccaro and at least one of the OGs is, the choice gets more interesting. I don't want to go S that high, but at the same time don't see what the team plans to do in single high coverage with Church or Johnson. If you're going to get a rangy guy you can trust, you're probably going to have to do it in the first 40 picks.

 

[tm1119]

So wait, you watched this and didn't like what you saw from #65? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N-ZIZ2VsGs

If so you must have REALLY high standards from what you expect from a guard. He missed on the screen pass, but other than that I have absolutely no clue what you are looking at. And the DT that pushed Warmack back a couple of times in pass protection (but never actually got close to the QB) is Daniel McCullens. He is 6'8 360 lbs, Warmack did a heck of a job.

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are looking at if you didn't like what you saw from Warmack in that game.

And then you watched this and came away more impressed???? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT55cgkIHNQ

Not at all man, not at all. People seem to get enamored with the speed of Cooper and then forget about that little thing called blocking. Cooper looks amazing on the run and is 1 hell of an athlete, but sorry, the 2 aren't comparable at the line of scrimmage.

 

[XxTDxX]

Cooper is better for our scheme. Period. But if Warmack is there at 18 you take him.. Just because a guy isn't the best at his position in the draft doesn't mean that he isn't the best guy by the time our pick comes around.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So wait, you watched this and didn't like what you saw from #65? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N-ZIZ2VsGs

If so you must have REALLY high standards from what you expect from a guard. He missed on the screen pass, but other than that I have absolutely no clue what you are looking at. And the DT that pushed Warmack back a couple of times in pass protection (but never actually got close to the QB) is Daniel McCullens. He is 6'8 360 lbs, Warmack did a heck of a job.

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are looking at if you didn't like what you saw from Warmack in that game.

If you don't want high standards for a first rounder then that is your deal and not mine.

I didn't say that he was bad. I said that I was not overly impressed. He got walked back in all three games and that was with them running the ball over 60% of the time and a lot of play action. When he gets singled up on a DT in pass protection, he gets walked back. He did it in all 3 games.

I'm telling you what I am seeing and you even admit what I am seeing happened. You are using inane generalities otherwise. And a 6'8" guy is easier to get under and leverage.

You disagree that he does not move well laterally and lunges alot when he pulls? That not happen or we going to get more inane dismissals?

 

[tm1119]

If you don't want high standards for a first rounder then that is your deal and not mine.

I didn't say that he was bad. I said that I was not overly impressed. He got walked back in all three games and that was with them running the ball over 60% of the time and a lot of play action. When he gets singled up on a DT in pass protection, he gets walked back. He did it in all 3 games.

I'm telling you what I am seeing and you even admit what I am seeing happened. You are using inane generalities otherwise. And a 6'8" guy is easier to get under and leverage.

You disagree that he does not move well laterally and lunges alot when he pulls? That not happen or we going to get more inane dismissals?

I meant high standards as in you are apparently expecting Larry Allen.

And I'd like to know what kind of football you are watching where offensive guards are immediately driving DT's back in pass protection. Hell, that's not even the purpose of pass protecting. You're overreacting to getting pushed back as well. He did his job, which is keeping the guy in front of him and away form the QB.

Does he move as well as a guy like Cooper? Absolutely not, not even close. Does he move adequately for a guard? Yes.

 

[DFWJC]

I meant high standards as in you are apparently expecting Larry Allen.

And I'd like to know what kind of football you are watching where offensive guards are immediately driving DT's back in pass protection. Hell, that's not even the purpose of pass protecting. You're overreacting to getting pushed back as well. He did his job, which is keeping the guy in front of him and away form the QB.

Does he move as well as a guy like Cooper? Absolutely not, not even close. Does he move adequately for a guard? Yes.

This is how I see it.

 

[dart]

Cooper is better for our scheme. Period. But if Warmack is there at 18 you take him.. Just because a guy isn't the best at his position in the draft doesn't mean that he isn't the best guy by the time our pick comes around.

this

Fuzzy name a OG you'd be satisfied with ?

please ?

I am not sure we take him or not - we might go DL or

S tho I would hate this

if he was there at 18

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I meant high standards as in you are apparently expecting Larry Allen.

And I'd like to know what kind of football you are watching where offensive guards are immediately driving DT's back in pass protection. Hell, that's not even the purpose of pass protecting. You're overreacting to getting pushed back as well. He did his job, which is keeping the guy in front of him and away form the QB.

Does he move as well as a guy like Cooper? Absolutely not, not even close. Does he move adequately for a guard? Yes.

I'm not expecting Larry Allen. Allen dominated the NFL. I am just expecting a guy to dominate NCAA talent.

I am expecting a guy to be able to drive block a guy downfield without needing a combo from the center. Especially when he is supposed to be a power guy.

I am expecting a guy to not spend most of his time on the ground or blocking nobody when he pulls.

And if you honestly think that not liking a guy to get walked back in the pocket is 'overreacting' then I suppose we have a difference of opinion of what good pass protection is. I'm curious as to what you think anchoring is.

If we could draft Warmack and Jones both with 18 then great but he wasn't dominating his 1 on 1's. I can get a guy that can hold his ground sometimes in a later round.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

this

Fuzzy name a OG you'd be satisfied with ?

please ?

I am not sure we take him or not - we might go DL or

S tho I would hate this

if he was there at 18

I'd prefer a tackle fall myself but if you are making me pick a guard in the first I would go with Cooper. While he wasn't playing in the SEC he also didn't have Jones next to him either. He is strong as heck and a much superior athlete. He doesn't use his hands as well though. They were shooting gaps and he was letting guys through because of it.

I agree with IR. People overvalue OG here like nuts. I'd take Richardson over either of the guards and not think twice about it.