Not Overly Impressed With Chance Warmack

[jjktkk]

It's not particularly hard to figure out who the LG is. I told you what I saw. If you want to disagree then great but the blanket dismissal doesn't add much to the discussion.

Cmon Fuzzy, you know burmy is always right on his football takes. Just ask him.

 

[dart]

I'd prefer a tackle fall myself but if you are making me pick a guard in the first I would go with Cooper. While he wasn't playing in the SEC he also didn't have Jones next to him either. He is strong as heck and a much superior athlete. He doesn't use his hands as well though. They were shooting gaps and he was letting guys through because of it.

I agree with IR. People overvalue OG here like nuts. I'd take Richardson over either of the guards and not think twice about it.

oh I agee Cooper is no 1 but he will not fall in our laps

an Kiffen will have to a lot of talkin to get Richardson - not the type of guy we pick - plus he I really don't see him falling to us

JMO

 

[InmanRoshi]

oh I agee Cooper is no 1 but he will not fall in our laps

but Kiffen will have to a lot of talkin to get Richardson not the type of guy we pick - plus he I really don't see him falling to us

JMO

I'm also pessimistic about him falling into our laps. Matt Eberflus is a long time Mizzou guy, coached there for almost a decade, and implemented Tampa 4-3 there himself as a DC which Mizzou still runs to this day. I assume he'll have as good as insight as anyone in the NFL first hand from the Mizzou staff as to what kind of guy Richardson is. Warren Sapp wasn't exactly a saint, had a pretty inconsistent motor and put almost no effort into conditioning, but I think the Cowboys and Kiffin would take him again. That's another huge plus about Richardson ... you don't have to project how he's going to fit into the scheme. It's alright there on tape. One less unknown to worry about.

And I think it's virtually a given a that one of the guards will be there at #18. Guards don't get drafted early in the first round The last time a guard was drafted with a Top 15 pick was fifteen years ago in 1997 with Chris Naeole. To say both Warmack and Cooper will be gone by the Cowboys pick is predicting two huge anomalies in the same year. Almost every year we hear how "this year is different" and this guard prospect is the best one to come out in a decade, and they all inevitably get drafted much lower than people expect like DeCastro was.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

I would rather trade back and snag warford. Maybe be able to snag another second or third.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

oh I agee Cooper is no 1 but he will not fall in our laps

an Kiffen will have to a lot of talkin to get Richardson - not the type of guy we pick - plus he I really don't see him falling to us

JMO

Iupati was picked 17 a few years ago and other than that it was 23 or later. Often times guards weren't even picked in the first round. Decastro was supposed to go before 14 last year and he went ten picks later.

And why is Richardson not the kind of guy Kiffin picks? He seems to be a shoe in 1 gapper.

 

[Muhast]

I'm also pessimistic about him falling into our laps. Matt Eberflus is a long time Mizzou guy, coached there for almost a decade, and implemented Tampa 4-3 there himself as a DC which Mizzou still runs to this day. I assume he'll have as good as insight as anyone in the NFL first hand from the Mizzou staff as to what kind of guy Richardson is. Warren Sapp wasn't exactly a saint, had a pretty inconsistent motor and put almost no effort into conditioning, but I think the Cowboys and Kiffin would take him again. That's another huge plus about Richardson ... you don't have to project how he's going to fit into the scheme. It's alright there on tape. One less unknown to worry about.

And I think it's virtually a given a that one of the guards will be there at #18. Guards don't get drafted early in the first round The last time a guard was drafted with a Top 15 pick was fifteen years ago in 1997 with Chris Naeole. To say both Warmack and Cooper will be gone by the Cowboys pick is predicting two huge anomalies in the same year. Almost every year we hear how "this year is different" and this guard prospect is the best one to come out in a decade, and they all inevitably get drafted much lower than people expect like DeCastro was.

100% agree. Last year people were saying DeCastro would be gone in the top 10 and we wouldn't have a chance on him. Those interior lineman hardly ever go early in the draft. I think we will have our choice of either of the two personally.

I think there are a lot of LB's and DL that will move up as the draft gets closer.

 

[CATCH17]

Watched him against Tenn, LSU and ND and did not really come away impressed youtube scouting. I don't watch NCAA sports except to look at draft prospects and I never watch ESPN but for Spurs, Red Sox and Cowboys games so I am insulated from the hype. I get the feeling that some of the hoopla about him is from the "best OL in football" and "best running team in football" comments you get from Mussberger and the like. Anyway onto specifics.

This is not to say that he is not a good prospect. He excels at getting off the line and straight ahead into LBers. He really really excels at doing combo blocks with his center. That tandem blew people up.

He has decent lateral mobility and decent quickness for a man his size. You can use him on traps and to a lesser degree on pulling him to the outside for outside runs and screens. He was pretty good at all of this. He becomes less effective the farther he has to go and the more time a defender has to avoid him.

What left me completely underwhelmed was his drive blocking and pass protection. Manned up on a DT he didn't get very good movement and instead stood his guy up; he uses his hands well to keep guys out of his body, but outside of combo blocks and LBers masquerading as deer in the headlights I just didn't see all the pancakes that I was expecting from reading about him here. In pass protection he was slow to set and gave ground with regularity. That last part was disconcerting considering how effective they were running the ball.

He's a good prospect and stands to be a solid pro but I do not get the notion that he is a top 15 prospect especially not for the NFL game. Just don't see it.

On a side note the AL QB is awful. Inaccurate, not particularly athletic and it was funny watching him run around like a ninny and have the center either ignore or push him away. The center had zero respect for him and I can understand why.

Im kinda with you.

I think he is a good player and will be a good player in the NFL.

I've just never seen him as better than Cooper.

Him playing at Alabama and Cooper play at UNC is the only thing seperating the 2 imo.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Cooper can get stronger. Warmack will never have Cooper's feet. Thrown in the fact that Cooper provides more position flexibility and could probably play center and provide a better possibility of getting your 5 best OL on the field simutaneously, and he's a pretty clear favorite for me.

 

[xwalker]

Fluker might be a similar power player at OG as Warmack. I'm not a fan of Fluker at OT due to slow feet, but at OG he might be more powerful than Warmack.

Fluker: 6'4-5/8", 339, 5.31 forty, 1.83 10-yard

Warmack: 6'2, 317, 5.49 forty, 1.83 10-yard

 

[jterrell]

Warmack is the most impressive player I saw all year. Richardson was the most impressive DL. Ahead of Floyd for me because he was simply a step quicker.

I wasn't even keying on Chance but instead looking at Barrett Jones and DJ Fluker but Warmack stood out. Quite Clearly.

I watched every snap of the LSU game 3 times. Warmack was the best OL on either team by a wide, wide margin. Fluker was really good, Jones was solid but Chance was nearly flawless.

He got to LBs so easily for a guy his size. When he got through the hole and turned to create a wall the RB invariably followed him of all the Bama OL and made tremendous yardage.

LSU has a phenomenal DL and Warmack still dominated. He was beaten to his right a couple times (but never for lost yardage) when Barrett assisted to the right but he was never beaten back to his left and he pushed people consistently.

A pass blocker can't drive block. It's illegal. Not sure how that is even a question.

Against ND Warmack dominated Teo. He was the first OG all year to consistently get to Teo. (Barrett Jones also routinely got to Teo).
This was with NFL caliber DTs playing. They flat gashed ND to the point it wasn't even fun to watch anymore. This was supposed to be the best defense in college football. Bama abused and humiliated them.

I can't speak to the Tennesee game. Never watched that one.

Cooper looks very impressive but I don't have any real experience watching Cooper versus quality DL. Cooper looks more athletic but Warmack is bigger and definitely stronger. Warmack had a better broad jump which is indicative of leg strength.

As to the scheme stuff... Please stop. Bama ran a zone run blocking scheme. That's why there are so many combo blocks and walling off guys. They zone blocked an area and found the guy in the area. That's um exactly what Callahan does. In fact the comparison made on NFL.com is ... Carl Nicks.

That isn't to say Cooper wouldn't be great here. But writing off Warmack is ridiculous since he is the guy who actually played in the zone blocking scheme.

 

[Woods]

Fluker might be a similar power player at OG as Warmack. I'm not a fan of Fluker at OT due to slow feet, but at OG he might be more powerful than Warmack.

Fluker: 6'4-5/8", 339, 5.31 forty, 1.83 10-yard

Warmack: 6'2, 317, 5.49 forty, 1.83 10-yard

I posted this in a thread about a month ago.

IF we end up trading back in Round 1, is there a serious drop-off with drafting Fluker to play OG (NOT RT) vs Warmack (assuming we go OL, of course)?

And from everything I've read, it's not that Fluker is a fat 339 lbs either. The guy is just massive. Like Flozell (in terms of size).

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Great post, jt.

 

[DFWJC]

. They flat gashed ND to the point it wasn't even fun to watch anymore. This was supposed to be the best defense in college football. Bama abused and humiliated them.

.

The answer is obvious regarding ND being the best defense; they were not close to the best defense and that was revealed totally in that game.

Hats off to ND for a very nice season, but they did not face too may dominating Olines last year.

But I agree, this thread is a bit over-the-top in disrepecting Warmack.

 

[LatinMind]

Watched him against Tenn, LSU and ND and did not really come away impressed youtube scouting. I don't watch NCAA sports except to look at draft prospects and I never watch ESPN but for Spurs, Red Sox and Cowboys games so I am insulated from the hype. I get the feeling that some of the hoopla about him is from the "best OL in football" and "best running team in football" comments you get from Mussberger and the like. Anyway onto specifics.

This is not to say that he is not a good prospect. He excels at getting off the line and straight ahead into LBers. He really really excels at doing combo blocks with his center. That tandem blew people up.

He has decent lateral mobility and decent quickness for a man his size. You can use him on traps and to a lesser degree on pulling him to the outside for outside runs and screens. He was pretty good at all of this. He becomes less effective the farther he has to go and the more time a defender has to avoid him.

What left me completely underwhelmed was his drive blocking and pass protection. Manned up on a DT he didn't get very good movement and instead stood his guy up; he uses his hands well to keep guys out of his body, but outside of combo blocks and LBers masquerading as deer in the headlights I just didn't see all the pancakes that I was expecting from reading about him here. In pass protection he was slow to set and gave ground with regularity. That last part was disconcerting considering how effective they were running the ball.

He's a good prospect and stands to be a solid pro but I do not get the notion that he is a top 15 prospect especially not for the NFL game. Just don't see it.

On a side note the AL QB is awful. Inaccurate, not particularly athletic and it was funny watching him run around like a ninny and have the center either ignore or push him away. The center had zero respect for him and I can understand why.

:splat:

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Warmack is the most impressive player I saw all year. Richardson was the most impressive DL. Ahead of Floyd for me because he was simply a step quicker.

I wasn't even keying on Chance but instead looking at Barrett Jones and DJ Fluker but Warmack stood out. Quite Clearly.

I watched every snap of the LSU game 3 times. Warmack was the best OL on either team by a wide, wide margin. Fluker was really good, Jones was solid but Chance was nearly flawless.

He got to LBs so easily for a guy his size. When he got through the hole and turned to create a wall the RB invariably followed him of all the Bama OL and made tremendous yardage.

LSU has a phenomenal DL and Warmack still dominated. He was beaten to his right a couple times (but never for lost yardage) when Barrett assisted to the right but he was never beaten back to his left and he pushed people consistently.

A pass blocker can't drive block. It's illegal. Not sure how that is even a question.

Against ND Warmack dominated Teo. He was the first OG all year to consistently get to Teo. (Barrett Jones also routinely got to Teo).
This was with NFL caliber DTs playing. They flat gashed ND to the point it wasn't even fun to watch anymore. This was supposed to be the best defense in college football. Bama abused and humiliated them.

I can't speak to the Tennesee game. Never watched that one.

Cooper looks very impressive but I don't have any real experience watching Cooper versus quality DL. Cooper looks more athletic but Warmack is bigger and definitely stronger. Warmack had a better broad jump which is indicative of leg strength.

As to the scheme stuff... Please stop. Bama ran a zone run blocking scheme. That's why there are so many combo blocks and walling off guys. They zone blocked an area and found the guy in the area. That's um exactly what Callahan does. In fact the comparison made on NFL.com is ... Carl Nicks.

That isn't to say Cooper wouldn't be great here. But writing off Warmack is ridiculous since he is the guy who actually played in the zone blocking scheme.

I watched those 3 games twice each. I was liberal in backing plays up and rewatching them I didn't look at much but what Warmack was doing.

I never equated drive blocking and pass protection. I just said that I was not overly impressed with either on one on ones. He certainly did not 'win' those battles. For us he is not going to be run blocking 60% of the time and if he cannot anchor against AAA opponents I don't see him coming in and doing it off the bat for us.

From what I watched there was a couple of things I noted about AL. They never played from behind. The only time they were ever down was vs. LSU and that was by 3 points. Looking at the AL schedule it doesn't look like they were ever behind all season long. They ran the ball 60% of the time. OF course you are going to run at them with a huge OL when your up by 10 or more points. I certainly never saw them pass the ball 3 times in a row. And AL may be a 'zone team' but I saw only a handful of stretch plays. I saw a lot of stuff that went straight ahead.

When they did pass the ball they did a whole lot of play action. The few times a game where he was actually asked to pass block AND he was isoed I saw a guy that was consistently slow in sitting back and because of that getting walked back. I don't see much of anyone disputing that. He was not all bad. Far from it. He is remarkably well coached and has a great feel for setting up a wall with his teammates. He does a decent job clogging up stunts to the gap on either side. When he gets his hands on you you're not going around him. In the NFL though, he is going to be asked to pass block a lot and he is going to be isoed by any OC worth his salt because its a weakness.

I would put another DT on the farside A gap, have that guy crash the center and isolate Warmack every passing down there was.

In run blocking I saw him excel at several things. Tandem blocking at the point of attack with Jones, combo blocking with Jones and then peeling off on a LB, and peeling back and trapping. Absolutely phenomenal. When he blocked down on a guy which wasn't very often he would just sit down and smother them. Ask him to move in a closet and he's elite.

ND didn't cover up their WLB and Warmack destroyed him a whole lot. He didn't have to move laterally to do it though.

What I did not see was what I want to see if I am going to say he's the best OG prospect in a decade and other hyperbole bandied about: power on iso's. When he was isoed on a DT and asked to drive at the point of attack, I never once saw him drive his guy out of the hole and turn him. Not once. I saw a whole lot of standing guys up and muddling the line. He wasn't getting blown up by any means but he certainly wasn't blowing up guys either.

On runs to the perimeter and screens he was well below average. He would run to the perimeter and look for the SS and SLB; he would then lunge miss and end up on the ground a lot. A whole lot. When he was asked to go downfield he basically wandered and defenders ran around him. Now Lacey never set him up. Warmack is not very fast and Lacey is not a patient runner whatsoever. Playing with a guy like Murray would mitigate a whole heck of a lot of that. I get that but it's a big limitation to his game nonetheless. I don't see anyone dispute that either.

Now this does not mean I dismiss him at all. There are certain things that he does at an elite level. I also think that he has serious flaws in his game that were masked a lot by playing on a dominating team that played with a lead all the time and an very good center playing next to him.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:splat:

Great analysis. I see a whole lot of posts with little more substance than this. I see what I see.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

Warmack is the most impressive player I saw all year. .

Two words: JaDeveon Clowney

 

[burmafrd]

Cmon Fuzzy, you know burmy is always right on his football takes. Just ask him.

if I had any doubts I was right you just removed them. I notice the usual suspects that claim Our O line just needs time are the ones that claim Warmack is not worth a first rd pick.

Not surprising at all

 

[burmafrd]

The answer is obvious regarding ND being the best defense; they were not close to the best defense and that was revealed totally in that game.

Hats off to ND for a very nice season, but they did not face too may dominating Olines last year.

But I agree, this thread is a bit over-the-top in disrepecting Warmack.

ND was not ready to play that game. The talent differential was nowhere near what that game made it appear.

Hats off to Saban for having his team ready to play and a big thumb down for Kelly.

I have heard that ND had no full contact practices for that game- which if true explains a lot.

Alabama was clearly the better team but NOT that much better.

 

[Biggems]

For the most part I agree that McCarron is inaccurate....however, against ND, he was outstanding, making all types of throws and great decisions.

As for Warmack, I don't want him. If we were going 90s style OL, then go after him with guns a blazin. However, we have a different style. We need quick, athletic, fast OL who can go sideline to sideline....