Petrino on Zimmer

[Bob Sacamano]

That one doesn't fit into anyone's agenda.

ignorance is bliss!

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Execution?

Guys not knowing where to line up (that happened about 4 times during the Seattle Game), a lack of basic knowledge about how to handle the Fullback, constantly blitzing up the middle and to only have your players get stuck in the middle.

Alot of that is on the coaching staff.

so, the coaches, NFL coaches I might add, never told the players to watch out for the Fback in the flat? yeah, riiiiight, you can't be that dumb

Spears and Canty couldn't get a push in the pass-rush, how on Earth is that ZImmer's fault?

The players are like Robots and they seemed to have been robbed of their instincts.

or, orrrrr, most of the players were inexperienced in the nuances of the 3-4, and didn't have any instincts to lose?

There was a lack of creativity and adjustments on the coaching staff once New Orleans exposed us, PERIOD, end of subject.

- Mike G.

still, that doesn't excuse the players from doing their jobs

 

[wileedog]

Execution?

Guys not knowing where to line up (that happened about 4 times during the Seattle Game), a lack of basic knowledge about how to handle the Fullback, constantly blitzing up the middle and to only have your players get stuck in the middle.

Alot of that is on the coaching staff.

If my kid fails Algebra I don't ground the teacher.

The players are like Robots and they seemed to have been robbed of their instincts.

And who is that on?

From JJT:

Zimmer, the son of a coach, is a demanding taskmaster with a vocabulary only a drill sergeant can appreciate. He believes perfection is attainable, and it's his job to make his players achieve it. So he's hard on them. Some say, too hard.

They say he tears them down with his words in practice and meetings, but doesn't build them up with backslaps when they perform well.

That's the difference, they say, between Zimmer and Parcells.

There was a lack of creativity and adjustments on the coaching staff once New Orleans exposed us, PERIOD, end of subject.

We couldn't manage to cover a stinking RB for 3 weeks, just how much creativity are you going to try and lay on this bunch?

Give Belichek, Jim Johnson or LeBeau this talented defense and it is almost certain you get better results.

- Mike G.

Probably, but we'll never know.

I do think a very young defense lost a lot of confidence in that NO game and everything snowballed.

 

[iceberg]

The #1 defense thing is really overblown. His so called #1 D was a bend but don't break, non turnover producing non sack producing D that can't win championships. We are a better team without him.

i sure don't recall too many fans going "oh, we don't deserve it..." at the time.

 

[wileedog]

i sure don't recall too many fans going "oh, we don't deserve it..." at the time.

Actually I remember a lot of people saying it at the time, because even back then folks were complaining about the lack of pressure and the 'bend don't break' style. It got much worse after we got rolled by Miami on Thanksgiving.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

so, the coaches, NFL coaches I might add, never told the players to watch out for the Fback in the flat? yeah, riiiiight, you can't be that dumb

Oddly enough it ceased to be problem...but that wasnt until 2 weeks and 5 TDs later .

Spears and Canty couldn't get a push in the pass-rush, how on Earth is that ZImmer's fault?

We did a pretty good job of scheming against the Colts (and that was without Gregg Ellis). This defense was solid until Parcells/Zimmer's Defense Philosophy was exposted by NO and after that...Kitna did a good job of relaying what happened after that.

or, orrrrr, most of the players were inexperienced in the nuances of the 3-4, and didn't have any instincts to lose?

What about 03 (believe me once teams figured us out we got exposed defensively too), 04 and 05? At some point the excuses have to stop and you have to hold The Coaches accountable.

still, that doesn't excuse the players from doing their jobs

Sure doesn't. But that doesn't absolve Zimmer/Parcells from presiding over some of the worst collapses (defensively) this Franchise has seen in a long time, maybe ever. We tanked in 05 and we tanked in 06.

Coordinators and HCs have been fired for far less than some of "Garbage" (as Norm Hitzges likes to put it) this club has rolled out with in the last couple of seasons.

I dont know how many articles I read after a game During the Parcells/Zimmer Era that talked about record Points Against us had been broken. I had the unfortunate priveledge of attending one of those games (See Boys/Philly 04).

At some point, you MUST hold the Brain Trust accoutable.

 

[iceberg]

Actually I remember a lot of people saying it at the time, because even back then folks were complaining about the lack of pressure and the 'bend don't break' style. It got much worse after we got rolled by Miami on Thanksgiving.

i'll agree we were wanting a pass rush.

i'll also agree we still do.

so why did we go to 3-4 again? what were we out to fix?
a pass rush. have we? no.

we can blame zimmer all we want to and some love doing just that. we won't know for sure until someone else steps in and we see if parcells will step back and let him do his job or if parcells keeps his hand in his favorite part of the team - the d.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Actually I remember a lot of people saying it at the time, because even back then folks were complaining about the lack of pressure and the 'bend don't break' style. It got much worse after we got rolled by Miami on Thanksgiving.

So do I. We had the #1 D and everybody was beating their chest about it. Then the reality of the situation set in that we still didn't generate any pressure on the QB or force many turnovers. Good defenses do that and help the offense by giving them a shorter field. We didn't.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

At some point, you MUST hold the Brain Trust accoutable.

this is where most of you are mistaken about the Zimmer supporters

noone is absolving him, and BP from blame, at least not I, and many times during our D collapse, I was screaming for Bill to get rid of the cover-2, or use it much less, because our safeties couldn't play within it, and we had 2 man corners passing off the teams top 2 WRs to the safeties, and also was screaming for the coaches to not always put Newman in the slot, when all this was happening in the face of a lack of a pass-rush

Chicago has a horrible group of secondary players, IMO, but their pass-rush is masking it, the fact is that our front 7 players, minus Ware, Ferg, and sometimes Akin, were horrible creating a push, no amount of scheming will get you around that, so the blame must go to the players as well

 

[Maikeru-sama]

this is where most of you are mistaken about the Zimmer supporters

noone is absolving him, and BP from blame, at least not I, and many times during our D collapse, I was screaming for Bill to get rid of the cover-2, or use it much less, because our safeties couldn't play within it, and we had 2 man corners passing off the teams top 2 WRs to the safeties, and also was screaming for the coaches to not always put Newman in the slot, when all this was happening in the face of a lack of a pass-rush

Chicago has a horrible group of secondary players, IMO, but their pass-rush is masking it, the fact is that our front 7 players, minus Ware, Ferg, and sometimes Akin, were horrible creating a push, no amount of scheming will get you around that, so the blame must go to the players as well

I just look at a guy like Jim Johnson. He loses guys to injury and FA every year and he stills finds ways to come up with creative schemes to confused the QB or get pressure.

For Zimmer and Parcells for that matter, in the beginning it was, well they dont really have alot of talent so we have to give them a pass.

Well, 4 years, several 1st Round Draft Choices and millions of dollars later this team still has no pass rush and still giving up big players.

Like Bryan Brodus, the ex-Cowboy Scout said on his weekly breakdown of our games on GAC ESPN, we have one of the worst blitz schemes going.

I put that on the Coaches.

Regardless, it all comes back to Big Bill anyway.

Two sides here. You either believe it is a lack of Coaching, which falls at the feet of Big Bill or you believe we have a lack of talent, which also falls on Big Bill as he bought and cooked the groceries.

I just hate to see a team with so much talent on defense being wasted on predictable schemes.

I bet a compotent defensive coach like Dick LeBeau, Bill Belichek, Romeo Crennell etc etc would be foaming at the mouth if he could work with good young talent like Ware, Canty, Spears, Newman etc etc and some wiley vets like Glenn, Henry, Fergy, Williams etc etc.

This defense would be incredible under these guys or it would have a better scheme to protect our flaws.

- Mike G.

 

[wileedog]

i'll agree we were wanting a pass rush.

i'll also agree we still do.

so why did we go to 3-4 again? what were we out to fix?
a pass rush. have we? no.

The difference is this defense is loaded with 1st and 2nd year players. They will get better. And if they don't this year then everyone will get their drastic change regardless.

The 03 squad was mostly guys who had peaked or were starting to decline - that was as good as they were going to get, and indeed with just the loss of Woody in 04 they completely collapsed.

we can blame zimmer all we want to and some love doing just that. we won't know for sure until someone else steps in and we see if parcells will step back and let him do his job or if parcells keeps his hand in his favorite part of the team - the d.

I've defended Zimmer in the past and I don't think he is as much to blame as some are saying. I think he might even do relatively well in Atlanta.

I do take exception to those who want to bypass him completely and say Parcells was manipulating him, suffocating him, telling him what to do, blah blah blah. Again, they gave him a $1M raise for a reason, and it wasn't because he managed to always get Bill's Taco Bell order right at the drive through.

 

[baj1dallas]

More fuel to the fire that Stats dont mean anything.

That 2003 team played with fire and heart but nobody thought they actually had the #1 Defense in the NFL.

In 2001 you have to remember we got to play the Skins and Zona twice a year and the Giants were down that year too. I remember when we faced good teams we were exposed. I remember that year we lost to the Lions and Philly hung about 40 on our Defense.

- Mike G.

so, ask for stats, but then ignore them when supplied. well at least I don't waste my own effort here.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I just look at a guy like Jim Johnson. He loses guys to injury and FA every year and he stills finds ways to come up with creative schemes to confused the QB or get pressure.

the difference is that the 4-3 isn't a terribly complex D to learn, and get down, we're dealing w/ a complex scheme, filled w/ alot of young guys who never played it, and veterans who never played it, so alot of these guys are learning on the run, plus guys not winning their individual battles isn't helping any

Two sides here. You either believe it is a lack of Coaching, which falls at the feet of Big Bill or you believe we have a lack of talent, which also falls on Big Bill as he bought and cooked the groceries.

it's not talent, it's experience that is holding us back, but to put all the blame on the coaches for the inexperience isn't right, they're coaching, but the players aren't grasping it just yet

and believe it or not, a simple, predictable scheme is the only reason that our D hasn't been at the bottom of the barrel these past 2 years

 

[Maikeru-sama]

The difference is this defense is loaded with 1st and 2nd year players. They will get better. And if they don't this year then everyone will get their drastic change regardless.

The 03 squad was mostly guys who had peaked or were starting to decline - that was as good as they were going to get, and indeed with just the loss of Woody in 04 they completely collapsed.




I've defended Zimmer in the past and I don't think he is as much to blame as some are saying. I think he might even do relatively well in Atlanta.

I do take exception to those who want to bypass him completely and say Parcells was manipulating him, suffocating him, telling him what to do, blah blah blah. Again, they gave him a $1M raise for a reason, and it wasn't because he managed to always get Bill's Taco Bell order right at the drive through.

This defense has been getting smoked for 4 years now. What is the one common denominator? A lack of a pass rush. We didnt have one with marginal player and we dont have one with extremely talented players. What makes you think 2007 is going to be any different.

We need an infusion of new blood and thinking.

Gawd, our standards as Cowboys fans has really gotten low. I dont know about you guys but my pride was hurt (as a Cowboy fan) when I heard Kitna talking about how easily it is to defeat our weak, banal and hackneyed defense. It made me want to choke a certain somebody.

I am fine with Parcells staying but only if we get a strong Defensive Minded coach who can devise his own schemes.

- Mike G.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

the difference is that the 4-3 isn't a terribly complex D to learn, and get down, we're dealing w/ a complex scheme, filled w/ alot of young guys who never played it, and veterans who never played it, so alot of these guys are learning on the run



it's not talent, it's experience that is holding us back, but to put all the blame on the coaches for the inexperience isn't right, they're coaching, but the players aren't grasping it just yet

and believe it or not, a simple, predictable scheme is the only reason that our D hasn't been at the bottom of the barrel these past 2 years

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Me and you had this discussion last year and sure enough we are having it again.

History tends to repeat itself, so I will discuss this further with you this time next year when our boys are at home sitting on the couch .

- Mike G.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Me and you had this discussion last year and sure enough we are having it again.

History tends to repeat itself, so I will discuss this further with you this time next year when our boys are at home sitting on the couch .

- Mike G.

so you disagree that the 3-4 is a complex D?

 

[Maikeru-sama]

so, ask for stats, but then ignore them when supplied. well at least I don't waste my own effort here.

I should clarify.

I didnt mean stats were worthless, I meant, I would rather go with Qualitative Data (what I saw with my eyes) if I have that luxury.

I really wish I could take the Heart that 2003 Club had and give it to the 2006 team.

- Mike G.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

so you disagree that the 3-4 is a complex D?

Im not a defensive expert, but I think it depends on the coach and not the scheme.

The stuff Jim Johnson runs is pretty complex at times and that is a 4-3 scheme.

All we heard was how the 3-4 was better because it lets you pressure the QB from alot more places.

I dont know anymore man. I am just sick and tired of getting blown out and being one and done in the Playoffs.

Parcells told everyone when he arrived on the scene "To get our expectations up" and I have done that but 4 years later, we still haven't won a Playoff Game.

The point I am trying to make is this and it may not be the best analogy:

You want to learn how to start and run a business from Herb Kelleher, Larry Ellis, Lee Iaccoca, Bill Gates etc etc or do you want to learn it from Joe Schmoe from down the street?

I know which teacher I want, so yes, the Players do matter but the Teacher matters too.

- Mike G.

 

[5Stars]

do you want to learn it from Joe Schmoe from down the street?

Are you saying that Joe Schmoe is a pimp?


Carry on....

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Im not a defensive expert, but I think it depends on the coach and not the scheme.

the 3-4 is complex whichever way you look at it

BP has said so, DeMarcus Ware has said so, Akin Ayodele has said so, moreso than the 4-3 according to Ware and Akin, and they know a little something about playing in a 4-3 D

youth, 3-4, and inexperience=bad combination