Prisco: Top 10 Pass Rushers of all-time (Ware #8)

[ShiningStar]

Lawrence Taylor, Bruce Smith, Charles Haley, Randy White, Reggie White, Jim Marshall, Wilber Marshall, Warren Sapp, Randy White, Richard Seymour, Joe Greene....the bigger the moment, they better they played on a consistent basis.

Today and recently, it's Patrick Willis, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, Jared Allen, and others. Ware is in that next tier.

Leon Lett played his best football in the most critical moments of big games. He had a great knack for showing up when it counted most.

oh boy dont we pick the easy names, lets see Terrel Suggs, vs Ware? really? Jared Allen, wth someone already posting the facts that Ware has been consistent with Allens numbers yet you claim HES not in that tier?

Even the great randy white wasnt perfect every game or every play. I think a few times a few Skins had his number. Sapp? I think Ware has done a better body work than Sapp.

Taylor i will give you, but considering the rules change, Ware has been limited compared to that of which Taylor and others got away with.

So basically a list i figured you would have putting up, great memories but not the people you scope as hard as Ware.

Cherry picked and rehashed. Names that are easy to choose from, and players that Ware has the same stats with or better, and not part of said tier. Proves my point.

 

[ShiningStar]

Hard to put one name on that, but for comparison, take him and Harrsion in 2008, the year Harrison won DPOY.

Ware had 20 sacks.

15 of the 20 came in games separated by at least 8 points. Only 5 came in one score games.

Harrison had 16 sacks.

But 6.5 of them came in games decided by 1 score. And he had an INT and safety in those games.

Harrison did play in 2 more 1 score games than Ware (8 vs. 6)

I know there are a million factors that count into the score and blah blah blah...but based on that, you could say that Harrison is, in fact, more clutch than Ware.

Just to add on a bit, in 09, in 8 games decided by 1 score, Ware only had 5 of his 11 sacks. In 2010, in 11 games, he had 12.5. 2011, 9 sacks in 9 games, but had 8.5 in just 5 decided by 2 scores.

While this doesn't necessarily show that he plays worse in tight games, it doesn't show that he elevates his game. He plays at a high level all the time. To be clutch, you have to perform better in the toughest games. I don't think he does that.

all fair points. kudos.

 

[blindzebra]

LOL.

When did they get the sack and what was the score when they got it?

The score argument is as stupid as the we win when we run more crap that was going around.

You can't take those type of stats without context.

How do you know that Ware's sack did not lead to the 2 score lead?

How do you know if Harrison's sack occurred when Pitt had a 2 score lead and they gave up a score to make it a one score game?

 

[erod]

oh boy dont we pick the easy names, lets see Terrel Suggs, vs Ware? really? Jared Allen, wth someone already posting the facts that Ware has been consistent with Allens numbers yet you claim HES not in that tier?

Even the great randy white wasnt perfect every game or every play. I think a few times a few Skins had his number. Sapp? I think Ware has done a better body work than Sapp.

Taylor i will give you, but considering the rules change, Ware has been limited compared to that of which Taylor and others got away with.

So basically a list i figured you would have putting up, great memories but not the people you scope as hard as Ware.

Cherry picked and rehashed. Names that are easy to choose from, and players that Ware has the same stats with or better, and not part of said tier. Proves my point.

Again, it's not about how many, it's about when. Stats are so shallow.

Look at A-Rod. Tremendous numbers, but he's so weak in big moments at the plate. King of the 3-run homer with a 4-run lead.

 

[Future]

Of all these players mentioned I can recall each one being paired with or there being multiple very good pass rushers right along side them.

I think you could argue that 2008-2011 were Ware's best years of his career. Ratliff was a pro bowler every single one of those years.

Strangely, in 2009, when Spencer was Dallas' best defensive player down the stretch, and Ratliff was an All Pro, Ware only had 11 sacks.

 

[ShiningStar]

Again, it's not about how many, it's about when. Stats are so shallow.

Look at A-Rod. Tremendous numbers, but he's so weak in big moments at the plate. King of the 3-run homer with a 4-run lead.

i agree with you, but to sit there and tell me Ware is not on par with Allen or Suggs is silly.

Again Taylor stats aside, i grant you, amazing player, probably in any era we dont know. Okay i saw that one coming.

Randy White, easily chosen, but wasnt clutch all the time when it mattered, there were games where it mattered and sadly the other team was just that much better. Easily.

Stats aside, to prove Ware is overhyped, you overhyped the debate to inflate your side, its silly. Ware is a complete back that offers and does as hes told. Hes not going to wow you with a silly sack move, and sometimes teams are going to risk penatlies to take him out of plays. The Skins proved that time and time again.

Accept it, he doesnt suck because hes a Cowboy and he hasnt had a lot of help, and when he has in certain games, Spencer and other guys have had good games, not always saying thats how they have to have good games, but spencers good games, vs Wares good games, no comparison.

 

[adamknite]

Hard to put one name on that, but for comparison, take him and Harrsion in 2008, the year Harrison won DPOY.

Ware had 20 sacks.

15 of the 20 came in games separated by at least 8 points. Only 5 came in one score games.

Harrison had 16 sacks.

But 6.5 of them came in games decided by 1 score. And he had an INT and safety in those games.

Harrison did play in 2 more 1 score games than Ware (8 vs. 6)

I know there are a million factors that count into the score and blah blah blah...but based on that, you could say that Harrison is, in fact, more clutch than Ware.

Just to add on a bit, in 09, in 8 games decided by 1 score, Ware only had 5 of his 11 sacks. In 2010, in 11 games, he had 12.5. 2011, 9 sacks in 9 games, but had 8.5 in just 5 decided by 2 scores.

While this doesn't necessarily show that he plays worse in tight games, it doesn't show that he elevates his game. He plays at a high level all the time. To be clutch, you have to perform better in the toughest games. I don't think he does that.

Couldn't you make the analysis that maybe those sacks in those games were the reason we had a bigger lead and the game wasn't as close? There was no background behind those numbers other than the final score of the overall game.

 

[Future]

Couldn't you make the analysis that maybe those sacks in those games were the reason we had a bigger lead and the game wasn't as close? There was no background behind those numbers other than the final score of the overall game.

You could. But I think saying that one sack completely changes the outcome of a game would be a major reach.

 

[erod]

i agree with you, but to sit there and tell me Ware is not on par with Allen or Suggs is silly.

Again Taylor stats aside, i grant you, amazing player, probably in any era we dont know. Okay i saw that one coming.

Randy White, easily chosen, but wasnt clutch all the time when it mattered, there were games where it mattered and sadly the other team was just that much better. Easily.

Stats aside, to prove Ware is overhyped, you overhyped the debate to inflate your side, its silly. Ware is a complete back that offers and does as hes told. Hes not going to wow you with a silly sack move, and sometimes teams are going to risk penatlies to take him out of plays. The Skins proved that time and time again.

Accept it, he doesnt suck because hes a Cowboy and he hasnt had a lot of help, and when he has in certain games, Spencer and other guys have had good games, not always saying thats how they have to have good games, but spencers good games, vs Wares good games, no comparison.

It's not that he's not "on par" so much as he just isn't as present in games. He truly does kind of disappear in the fog of it all at times.

Again, I love Ware, and I'm glad he's here. But my eyes don't lie to me.

 

[Future]

It's not that he's not "on par" so much as he just isn't as present in games. He truly does kind of disappear in the fog of it all at times.

Again, I love Ware, and I'm glad he's here. But my eyes don't lie to me.

People who bash those who don't think Ware is God's gift tend to ignore the fact that there are games where he completely disappears.

There are even games where he has a sack, but does absolutely nothing else. For someone who puts up such great sack numbers, he really isn't that much of a force.

 

[mldardy]

Way too high. Oh my gawd.

I like me some Demarcus Ware, but wow is he overrated at times.

8 years 111.5 sacks 32 forced fumbles he belongs on the list

.....

 

[xwalker]

Ware gets stats, but he is not a dominant pass rusher. Teams don't fear him. King Dunlap owned him last season (and he owned no one else because he sucks).

Ware is a very nice player. To me, he's Greg Ellis.

Have you seen the list of injuries that he had last season?

If he stays healthy, he could remove all doubt this season. Rob Ryan's read-and-react defense really limited Ware, IMO.

 

[adamknite]

You could. But I think saying that one sack completely changes the outcome of a game would be a major reach.

The best sack getting teams average what? 3 sacks a game? So certainly one sack would mean a lot considering only 1 would give you 33% of the best sack average per game in the league.

If we're up 10 points, 1 sack could certainly stop a team from scoring a TD or FG and from making the final score a "one score game."

EDIT: I also like to point out that by the stats you posted... Ware was averaging almost a sack a game in our "one score games" (5 sacks in 6 one point games) so... isn't that actually a pretty good number? That's actually a very slightly better average than the Harrison sack numbers of 6.5 in 8 one score games. .81 to .83

 

[Nova]

People who bash those who don't think Ware is God's gift tend to ignore the fact that there are games where he completely disappears.

There are even games where he has a sack, but does absolutely nothing else. For someone who puts up such great sack numbers, he really isn't that much of a force.

People who fail to recognize how good Ware tend to ignore the fact that other players around the league aren't nearly all they're cracked up to be either.

 

[ShiningStar]

It's not that he's not "on par" so much as he just isn't as present in games. He truly does kind of disappear in the fog of it all at times.

Again, I love Ware, and I'm glad he's here. But my eyes don't lie to me.

fair enough.

 

[Nova]

Hard to put one name on that, but for comparison, take him and Harrsion in 2008, the year Harrison won DPOY.

Ware had 20 sacks.

15 of the 20 came in games separated by at least 8 points. Only 5 came in one score games.

Harrison had 16 sacks.

But 6.5 of them came in games decided by 1 score. And he had an INT and safety in those games.

Harrison did play in 2 more 1 score games than Ware (8 vs. 6)

I know there are a million factors that count into the score and blah blah blah...but based on that, you could say that Harrison is, in fact, more clutch than Ware.

Just to add on a bit, in 09, in 8 games decided by 1 score, Ware only had 5 of his 11 sacks. In 2010, in 11 games, he had 12.5. 2011, 9 sacks in 9 games, but had 8.5 in just 5 decided by 2 scores.

While this doesn't necessarily show that he plays worse in tight games, it doesn't show that he elevates his game. He plays at a high level all the time. To be clutch, you have to perform better in the toughest games. I don't think he does that.

Am I understanding this right? If you always play at a high level, but don't elevate your level of play in crunch time then you are not clutch (even though you're still consistently playing at a high level)?

Also, Harrison's 2008 season is arguably the best season by of a 3-4 OLB of all time.

 

[Future]

The best sack getting teams average what? 3 sacks a game? So certainly one sack would mean a lot considering only 1 would give you 33% of the best sack average per game in the league.

If we're up 10 points, 1 sack could certainly stop a team from scoring a TD or FG and from making the final score a "one score game."

Yea, I don't disagree.

But to say that one sack stopped a team from scoring is a stretch, because then you have to go to the couple of plays before that lead to 3rd or 4th down, and who made those plays, etc. etc.

The score stat is flawed, I get it. But I think its the best way to compare guys.

Whether it is flawed or not, it does show how guys perform in "tight" games. It's not really that often that a team scores a garbage time TD to take it from 14 to 7 or something like that with no time left on the clock.

 

[Future]

Am I understanding this right? If you always play at a high level, but don't elevate your level of play in crunch time then you are not clutch (even though you're still consistently playing at a high level)?

I would say so.

If you don't agree with that, then fine.

 

[Trendnet]

Hard to put one name on that, but for comparison, take him and Harrsion in 2008, the year Harrison won DPOY.

Ware had 20 sacks.

15 of the 20 came in games separated by at least 8 points. Only 5 came in one score games.

Harrison had 16 sacks.

But 6.5 of them came in games decided by 1 score. And he had an INT and safety in those games.

Harrison did play in 2 more 1 score games than Ware (8 vs. 6)

I know there are a million factors that count into the score and blah blah blah...but based on that, you could say that Harrison is, in fact, more clutch than Ware.

Just to add on a bit, in 09, in 8 games decided by 1 score, Ware only had 5 of his 11 sacks. In 2010, in 11 games, he had 12.5. 2011, 9 sacks in 9 games, but had 8.5 in just 5 decided by 2 scores.

While this doesn't necessarily show that he plays worse in tight games, it doesn't show that he elevates his game. He plays at a high level all the time. To be clutch, you have to perform better in the toughest games. I don't think he does that.

I think AdamJT completely destroyed these type of arguments.

To quote him. This is in regards to sacks with less than 5 minutes in a game. (note, Suggs has zero)

Ware has seven of those in the past five seasons -- more than Robert Mathis (6), Jared Allen (4), Dwight Freeney (4), Lamar Woodley (4), Tamba Hali (4), Cameron Wake (4), Clay Matthews (3), Julius Peppers (2), James Harrison (1), Trent Cole (1) and probably anyone else in the NFL.

 

[Plumfool]

This is taken from a Watkins article in 2012.

"Since 2005, Ware has 99.5 sacks, most in the NFL in that span. Twenty-six of those came in the fourth quarter, a half-sack more than his first-quarter total.

Third down? Ware has 36 sacks on third down, more than in any other situation.

Dangerous enough? He's got eight sacks in the defensive red zone."

I don't know but fourth quarter, third down, and red zone sacks seem to be "big moments."

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