Prisco: Top 10 Pass Rushers of all-time (Ware #8)

[Future]

I think AdamJT completely destroyed these type of arguments.

To quote him. This is in regards to sacks with less than 5 minutes in a game. (note, Suggs has zero)

Well do teams pass more against Dal in the last 5 minutes? Like everything, you can find a hole in that argument as well, without context.

Plus, score and time left are a different argument, imo.

 

[Nova]

Yea, I don't disagree.

But to say that one sack stopped a team from scoring is a stretch, because then you have to go to the couple of plays before that lead to 3rd or 4th down, and who made those plays, etc. etc.

The score stat is flawed, I get it. But I think its the best way to compare guys.

Whether it is flawed or not, it does show how guys perform in "tight" games. It's not really that often that a team scores a garbage time TD to take it from 14 to 7 or something like that with no time left on the clock.

Or if you're a superfan you can go back and examine all situations and give a grade... like this guy did.

http://s1287.***BLOCKED***/user/RMIB/media/DWare11_zps45b9cc3e.png.html

That's 2011 DeMarcus Ware... a season that many here thought was a pretty pedestrian, stat padded year.

By comparison, this is Aldon Smith last year.

http://i1287.***BLOCKED***/albums/a621/RMIB/AldonSmith_zps407211fe.jpg

(the same guy determined that the sacks Ware had in 2008 had slightly more impact than JJ Watt of 2012)

 

[adamknite]

Yea, I don't disagree.

But to say that one sack stopped a team from scoring is a stretch, because then you have to go to the couple of plays before that lead to 3rd or 4th down, and who made those plays, etc. etc.

The score stat is flawed, I get it. But I think its the best way to compare guys.

Whether it is flawed or not, it does show how guys perform in "tight" games. It's not really that often that a team scores a garbage time TD to take it from 14 to 7 or something like that with no time left on the clock.

That was kinda the point I was trying to make. You don't know when the sacks happened, you just used the final score of the game. I could make the analysis that Ware had so many sacks in games that were won by more than 8 points and say "Ware is a big reason for the score differential because of all those sacks he gets." The stats you provided back that statement.


and the edit I made to the post above: I also like to point out that by the stats you posted... Ware was averaging almost a sack a game in our "one score games" (5 sacks in 6 one point games) so... isn't that actually a pretty good number? That's actually a very slightly better average than the Harrison sack numbers of 6.5 in 8 one score games. .81 to .83

 

[Future]

Or if you're a superfan you can go back and examine all situations and give a grade... like this guy did.

http://s1287.***BLOCKED***/user/RMIB/media/DWare11_zps45b9cc3e.png.html

That's 2011 DeMarcus Ware... a season that many here thought was a pretty pedestrian, stat padded year.

By comparison, this is Aldon Smith last year.

http://i1287.***BLOCKED***/albums/a621/RMIB/AldonSmith_zps407211fe.jpg

Well, I don't think anyone would say that Smith is better than Ware. But you can't knock Smith for the fact that his team was always up by 14+.

And I'm not really sure how a sack has more value if someone is down by 27 than up by 20? Why is a Ware sack down by 27 worth 1.62, when a Smith sack up by 20, with same down and distance, is just .85

 

[Nova]

I would say so.

If you don't agree with that, then fine.

Not going to try to convince you otherwise but it seems a bit silly, but maybe we just have different definitions.

 

[Nova]

Well, I don't think anyone would say that Smith is better than Ware. But you can't knock Smith for the fact that his team was always up by 14+

You seem to be doing so on other pages...? Or am I mistaken.

The only point I'm trying to make is that while we take Ware for granted a bit, it's probably because we watch all of his games and root for him so we overlook what he does well and over analyze the times he didn't do so well.

It's easy to do with a larger sample size.

Reality is, there aren't many players with Ware's numbers as well as longevity of impact. Sure, I'd take Von Miller over him right now. But Von Miller is also 24.

 

[erod]

This is taken from a Watkins article in 2012.

"Since 2005, Ware has 99.5 sacks, most in the NFL in that span. Twenty-six of those came in the fourth quarter, a half-sack more than his first-quarter total.

Third down? Ware has 36 sacks on third down, more than in any other situation.

Dangerous enough? He's got eight sacks in the defensive red zone."

I don't know but fourth quarter, third down, and red zone sacks seem to be "big moments."

http://http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=dallascowboys&id=4695290&city=dallas

Again, more stats. Blah, blah, blah.

It's about pressure more than sacks anyway, and more accurately, TIMELY pressure.

 

[Future]

Not going to try to convince you otherwise but it seems a bit silly, but maybe we just have different definitions.

seems that way :laugh2:

You seem to be doing so on other pages...? Or am I mistaken.

Not really. Definitely not for Aldon Smith. The term "better" is not what I've been trying to talk about. I think Aldon Smith has inflated sack totals that aren't a real reflection of his talent.

I'm not trying to make a point that there are guys "better" than DeMarcus. On talent alone, there might not be. The argument I'm making is just a critique of Ware, I don't watch other guys enough to say that "wow, he's so much better than Ware." I have my opinions sure, but its quite possible that no OLB/DE is clutch, the way I look at it.

 

[adamknite]

But you can't knock Smith for the fact that his team was always up by 14+.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't that exactly what you did to Ware in your "games decided by one score" stats you posted, devalued his sacks when the game was decided by more than 8 points? I know we were never "always up by 14+" but, isn't it along the same lines at least?

 

[Nova]

Again, more stats. Blah, blah, blah.

It's about pressure more than sacks anyway, and more accurately, TIMELY pressure.

I don't know you but I'd contest that's not the case. Most people don't remember pressures because they are rarely quantified and they also are rarely recognized as well.

Didn't Ware have the most 4th quarter pressures last year? He's typically number 1 or 2 in total pressures over the course of the season also.

 

[erod]

I don't know you but I'd contest that's not the case. Most people don't remember pressures because they are rarely quantified and they also are rarely recognized as well.

Didn't Ware have the most 4th quarter pressures last year? He's typically number 1 or 2 in total pressures over the course of the season also.

Don't think so, but I don't know. I pay so little mind to stats on a conscious basis. Just go by what I see.

I give Ware a pass on last year because he was playing with one arm anyway.

 

[Future]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't that exactly what you did to Ware in your "games decided by one score" stats you posted, devalued his sacks when the game was decided by more than 8 points? I know we were never "always up by 14+" but, isn't it along the same lines at least?

:laugh2: Guess I'm a hypocrite.

No though...I just meant in terms of what the author was doing with that whole "sack impact" thing is all.

 

[Nova]

seems that way :laugh2:

Not really. Definitely not for Aldon Smith. The term "better" is not what I've been trying to talk about. I think Aldon Smith has inflated sack totals that aren't a real reflection of his talent.

I'm not trying to make a point that there are guys "better" than DeMarcus. On talent alone, there might not be. The argument I'm making is just a critique of Ware, I don't watch other guys enough to say that "wow, he's so much better than Ware." I have my opinions sure, but its quite possible that no OLB/DE is clutch, the way I look at it.

Fair enough I suppose. I think if you take a hard look around the league you'll find that Ware is completely unmatched when it comes to what this thread is about -- rushing the passer. There are guys that are better than him every now and then (Von Miller is now... Cameron Wake, etc), but they rarely have the staying power Ware has had, and often times have a much better supporting cast.

Every name that has been served up for a comparison were on strong playoff contenders or superbowl winning teams-- key word being 'teams'. They've been able to stand out because of the talent and teamwork around them, whereas Ware's contributions typically are undone by the mediocrity around him.

Recent Example: CHI @ DAL, Oct 1 2012

Early 3rd Quarter: Bears open 1st half with a TD, 17-7 Bears. On the responding drive, Kevin Ogletree mishandles a pass close to the goal line that is intercepted. 4 plays later, Ware forces a fumble from Cutler and gives the ball back to the Cowboys around the Bears' 30 yard line. The very next play, Romo throws an interception-fumble to Lance Briggs for 6... 24-7 Bears. We know how ugly it got after that, but if the offense had've capitalized, that's a 17-14, or 17-10 at worst and possibly a completely different game.

The worst part? That was the only 1 of Ware's 5 Forced Fumbles recovered by the Cowboys the entire season.

 

[Nova]

Don't think so, but I don't know. I pay so little mind to stats on a conscious basis. Just go by what I see.

I give Ware a pass on last year because he was playing with one arm anyway.

I actually meant 2011 and not 2012.

Yeah I 'got by what I see' too. I also realize that I'm not keeping up with all the pressures for every player in the league, so I let the stats keep track of that for me. Fact is, Ware gets a ton of hurries, hits, and sacks and he's pretty efficient to boot. And it's not as much 'stat padding' as many seem to think around here.

Although I'll agree that the stats are sometimes meaningless. But that's what happens when your other teammates don't hold up their end and capitalize on your contributions.

 

[Plumfool]

Again, more stats. Blah, blah, blah.

It's about pressure more than sacks anyway, and more accurately, TIMELY pressure.

Third down, fourth quarter, red zone. Not timely?

 

[adamknite]

:laugh2: Guess I'm a hypocrite.

No though...I just meant in terms of what the author was doing with that whole "sack impact" thing is all.

lolZ, oh ok, gotcha.

 

[Future]

Fair enough I suppose. I think if you take a hard look around the league you'll find that Ware is completely unmatched when it comes to what this thread is about -- rushing the passer. There are guys that are better than him every now and then (Von Miller is now... Cameron Wake, etc), but they rarely have the staying power Ware has had, and often times have a much better supporting cast.

Every name that has been served up for a comparison were on strong playoff contenders or superbowl winning teams-- key word being 'teams'. They've been able to stand out because of the talent and teamwork around them, whereas Ware's contributions typically are undone by the mediocrity around him.

Recent Example: CHI @ DAL, Oct 1 2012

Early 3rd Quarter: Bears open 1st half with a TD, 17-7 Bears. On the responding drive, Kevin Ogletree mishandles a pass close to the goal line that is intercepted. 4 plays later, Ware forces a fumble from Cutler and gives the ball back to the Cowboys around the Bears' 30 yard line. The very next play, Romo throws an interception-fumble to Lance Briggs for 6... 24-7 Bears. We know how ugly it got after that, but if the offense had've capitalized, that's a 17-14, or 17-10 at worst and possibly a completely different game.

The worst part? That was the only 1 of Ware's 5 Forced Fumbles recovered by the Cowboys the entire season.

I don't disagree with any of that.

But for every bears game, you have a game where Romo leads the Cowboys to the tying or leading score, and then the other team drives down the field without even breaking a sweat to score and win in the last minute or two.

 

[Nova]

Third down, fourth quarter, red zone. Not timely?

Not in the playoffs though... doesn't count. [/sarcasm]

 

[adamknite]

But for every bears game, you have a game where Romo leads the Cowboys to the tying or leading score, and then the other team drives down the field without even breaking a sweat to score and win in the last minute or two.

I can certainly agree that I'm sick of seeing that happen.

 

[Nova]

I don't disagree with any of that.

But for every bears game, you have a game where Romo leads the Cowboys to the tying or leading score, and then the other team drives down the field without even breaking a sweat to score and win in the last minute or two.

There were a lot of those in 2011. The year Ware led the league in 4th quarter pressures.

In fact in the season finale, I believe the score was NYG 21 DAL 14 when, NYG on Dallas 8, 2nd and 8... D Ware with a 10 yard sack. Forces NYG to settle for FG. In a pass rush unrelated, Bonus note, on the previous 1st and 10 play he actually disrupted a pass for Cruz.

Cowboys go 3 and out once they get the ball back.