Prisco: Top 10 Pass Rushers of all-time (Ware #8)

[TellerMorrow34]

Sorry but jumping to a conclusion based on an outcome with no correlating facts is far from a great job...it is useless.

He didn't jump to anything. He at least brought some thought and research with his position on what he feels about Ware.

it doesn't make him right, or wrong, but it's presented a hell of a lot better than a vast majority of the crap posted here. Therefor it's far more useful than the majority of the arguments here.

What? Is that why they double team him?

Of course. Didn't you know? Double teams and having a TE or a back chip him on occassions are all signs that they don't fear him at all. That's why they leave the one on one's to Spencer and others because they're terrified of those guys.

 

[erod]

lol.

And just like that any credibility you might have had was completely lost.


Greg Ellis? The guy of like one double digit sack season in his entire career? You're comparing him to a guy who does that EVERY year?

Wow.

There is stupid and then there is this. They don't even have a word yet for what an observation like this would be called.

No, stupid is basing your opinion on stats instead of your eyes. Aikman didn't have stats. Nor did Drew Pearson. But I know what I saw.

Learn football.

 

[Muhast]

This is taken from a Watkins article in 2012.

"Since 2005, Ware has 99.5 sacks, most in the NFL in that span. Twenty-six of those came in the fourth quarter, a half-sack more than his first-quarter total.

Third down? Ware has 36 sacks on third down, more than in any other situation.

Dangerous enough? He's got eight sacks in the defensive red zone."

I don't know but fourth quarter, third down, and red zone sacks seem to be "big moments."

http://http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=dallascowboys&id=4695290&city=dallas

To everyone but Cowboyszone fans :laugh2:

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Way too high. Oh my gawd.

I like me some Demarcus Ware, but wow is he overrated at times.

Consider the source.. Prisco is an idiot.

Reggie White 4th..

:laugh2:

 

[RoyTheHammer]

No, stupid is basing your opinion on stats instead of your eyes. Aikman didn't have stats. Nor did Drew Pearson. But I know what I saw.

Learn football.

No offense, but you said DeMarcus Ware = Greg Ellis.

Learn football, bud. Your "eyes" don't pass the test. Might consider glasses.

 

[erod]

No offense, but you said DeMarcus Ware = Greg Ellis.

Learn football, bud. Your "eyes" don't pass the test. Might consider glasses.

There was some hyperbole for effect in that comment, but is pointless to argue subtlety with the unwashed.

Greg Ellis was no slouch by any means. And Ware is hardly the be-all-end-all.

Both are very good players, but Ware is more athletic.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

There was some hyperbole for effect in that comment, but is pointless to argue subtlety with the unwashed.

Greg Ellis was no slouch by any means. And Ware is hardly the be-all-end-all.

Both are very good players, but Ware is more athletic.

Yea, one was a solid role player for us, who will never sniff the HoF.

The other has double digit sacks every year, even with teams gameplanning him and doubling him for most of his career, and will be a first ballot HoF.

Bit of a difference there, sir. Like you said though, its pointless to argue anything with you after your recent comments on the subject.

 

[Muhast]

2012
4th quarter, game within 7.

Ware 2.5 (4 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Clay matthews: 0 sacks(4 total 4th Q)
Jared Allen 3.0 sacks (5 total 4th Q)

2011
Ware:4.0 Sacks (7 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 Sack (1 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Allen: 2.0 Sacks (3 total 4th Q)

2010:
Ware: 3.0 Sacks(4.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 0 sacks (3.0 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 3.0 sacks (4.0 total 4th Q)
Allen: 1 sack (3.0 total 4th Q)


So in the last 3 years in the 4th Quarter, game within 7 totals:

Ware: 9.5 sacks(15.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers:2 sacks (6 total 4th Q)
Matthews:4 sacks( 10 total 4th Q)
Allen: 6 sacks (11 total 4th Q)

Just saying. People say he doesn't produce in big moments. Yet he has more sacks than those 3 when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter.

Maybe your memory and reality just don't add up. I purposely used this as my criteria to isolate sacks in the first 3 quarters that you guys might deem as "stat fillers" Not only more sacks overall than the other 3, but much more in the 4th quarter within one score. Pretty significant.

 

[17yearsandcounting]

No, stupid is basing your opinion on stats instead of your eyes. Aikman didn't have stats. Nor did Drew Pearson. But I know what I saw.

Learn football.

 

[blindzebra]

2012
4th quarter, game within 7.

Ware 2.5 (4 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Clay matthews: 0 sacks(4 total 4th Q)
Jared Allen 3.0 sacks (5 total 4th Q)

2011
Ware:4.0 Sacks (7 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 Sack (1 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Allen: 2.0 Sacks (3 total 4th Q)

2010:
Ware: 3.0 Sacks(4.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 0 sacks (3.0 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 3.0 sacks (4.0 total 4th Q)
Allen: 1 sack (3.0 total 4th Q)


So in the last 3 years in the 4th Quarter, game within 7 totals:

Ware: 9.5 sacks(15.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers:2 sacks (6 total 4th Q)
Matthews:4 sacks( 10 total 4th Q)
Allen: 6 sacks (11 total 4th Q)

Just saying. People say he doesn't produce in big moments. Yet he has more sacks than those 3 when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter.

Maybe your memory and reality just don't add up. I purposely used this as my criteria to isolate sacks in the first 3 quarters that you guys might deem as "stat fillers" Not only more sacks overall than the other 3, but much more in the 4th quarter within one score. Pretty significant.

Matthews is the stat padder.

This is exactly what I was saying, stats within context equals an argument.

 

[The Realist]

There was some hyperbole for effect in that comment, but is pointless to argue subtlety with the unwashed.

Greg Ellis was no slouch by any means. And Ware is hardly the be-all-end-all.

Both are very good players, but Ware is more athletic.

If Greg Ellis was very good, isn't Ware a tier or 2 better than him?

Or are they the same player, with the only differnce being Ware's athleticism?

 

[Muhast]

Matthews is the stat padder.

This is exactly what I was saying, stats within context equals an argument.

It was pretty simple, I just went to NFL.com-Stats-Selected the 4 players and clicked "Situational stats" and it breaks it down very well. You can see exactly how/when a player dominates. They have the quarter/score margins etc. laid out right there for you.

So for all of the folks that claim he doesn't make an impact when the game is close/on the line/crunch time/ the stats beg to differ. If you want to throw out anything but 4th quarter plays and define that as "crunch time" Ware has more than the other 3. If that still isn't enough and you define "crunch time" as 4th quarter within 1 TD, Ware still has the most. If you want to nitpick and pretend that every one of the sacks for the other 3 players came in the 4th quarter with :01 left in the game and the team about to score: well, thats not the reality. lol

 

[Future]

2012
4th quarter, game within 7.

Ware 2.5 (4 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Clay matthews: 0 sacks(4 total 4th Q)
Jared Allen 3.0 sacks (5 total 4th Q)

2011
Ware:4.0 Sacks (7 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 1.0 Sack (1 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 1.0 sack (2 total 4th Q)
Allen: 2.0 Sacks (3 total 4th Q)

2010:
Ware: 3.0 Sacks(4.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers: 0 sacks (3.0 total 4th Q)
Matthews: 3.0 sacks (4.0 total 4th Q)
Allen: 1 sack (3.0 total 4th Q)


So in the last 3 years in the 4th Quarter, game within 7 totals:

Ware: 9.5 sacks(15.5 total 4th Q)
Peppers:2 sacks (6 total 4th Q)
Matthews:4 sacks( 10 total 4th Q)
Allen: 6 sacks (11 total 4th Q)

Just saying. People say he doesn't produce in big moments. Yet he has more sacks than those 3 when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter.

Maybe your memory and reality just don't add up. I purposely used this as my criteria to isolate sacks in the first 3 quarters that you guys might deem as "stat fillers" Not only more sacks overall than the other 3, but much more in the 4th quarter within one score. Pretty significant.

Good stats, but it falls short in the same way that my breakdown did. We still don't know how many opportunities each of these guys had to get sacks in those times. It's quite possible, especially for Matthews, that because the Packers beat teams so bad, he had way fewer opportunities to rush the passer than Ware.

 

[Nova]

Good stats, but it falls short in the same way that my breakdown did. We still don't know how many opportunities each of these guys had to get sacks in those times. It's quite possible, especially for Matthews, that because the Packers beat teams so bad, he had way fewer opportunities to rush the passer than Ware.

Stats like those just don't exist, but we could probably make a logical deduction here.

Ware has the most sacks of the four and obviously rushes the passer less than Allen or Peppers.

Ware typically rushes the passer more than Matthews, yet he's still more efficient of a pass rusher than Matthews-- more success per pass rushing snap as measured in hurries, hits, or sacks-- except in 2012 where his efficiency wasn't as good as Matthews, but the difference was about as marginal as you can get.

He's more efficient than all 4 guys.

Is it a stretch to say that Ware has likely been better in that aspect anyway?

 

[Future]

Stats like those just don't exist, but we could probably make a logical deduction here.

Ware has the most sacks of the four and obviously rushes the passer less than Allen or Peppers.

Ware typically rushes the passer more than Matthews, yet he's still more efficient of a pass rusher than Matthews-- more success per pass rushing snap as measured in hurries, hits, or sacks-- except in 2012 where his efficiency wasn't as good as Matthews, but the difference was about as marginal as you can get.

He's more efficient than all 4 guys.

Is it a stretch to say that Ware has likely been better in that aspect anyway?

Why would the part I bolded be obvious? It's not like Ware was dropping back into coverage more than 2-3 times a game, if that many.

I guess we could say it is likely, if we are assuming that he is just as efficient in the 4th quarter as he is in the rest of the game, sure.

But, again, efficiency, if we are counting hurries - which, to me, is the same thing as pressures - is subjective. Someone giving out efficiency ratings might be far more lenient with what constitutes a pressure than, say, myself or Erod.

 

[Nova]

I have used a baseball analogy before about a hitter.

If the guy hits .300, but most of his hits are not in critical times, and he has only 30 something RBIs, the guy hitting 250 with 50 RBI has more value.

I don't go much for stats, but I think Ware sometimes gets sacks when they are not as critical.

I am hoping the new coaching staff works him relentlessly on the inside move, which I believe will improve his sack totals and perhaps in critical times.

And other players don't? The only reason why a lot of people feel that way is because they've seen ALL of Ware's sacks opposed to seeing all of X players. Player X also has the same deal... lot's of non 'critical' sacks.

Which brings me to another topic-- a 'critical' sack. A sack can only be critical if the team makes something of it. This isn't a quarterback's influence we're talking about, and it's certainly not a batter's influence either. A batter can break a 0-0 tie with one swing of a bat and win the game. A pass rusher can only rely on his offense to do something when he gives them back the ball.

 

[Nova]

Why would the part I bolded be obvious? It's not like Ware was dropping back into coverage more than 2-3 times a game, if that many.

Okay maybe it's not obvious. Maybe that's a bad choice of words. There is, however, evidence that both players rushed the passer more and less efficiently in each of the years mentioned though.

Pass Rushing Snaps 2012:
Allen: 638
Peppers: 487
Ware: 420

Pass Rushing Snaps 2011:
Allen: 567
Peppers: 537
Ware: 451


Pass Rushing Snaps 2010:
Peppers: 525
Allen: 524
Ware: 470

Totals over the years:
Allen: 1,729
Peppers: 1,549
Ware: 1,341

I guess we could say it is likely, if we are assuming that he is just as efficient in the 4th quarter as he is in the rest of the game, sure.

Awesome.

But, again, efficiency, if we are counting hurries - which, to me, is the same thing as pressures - is subjective. Someone giving out efficiency ratings might be far more lenient with what constitutes a pressure than, say, myself or Erod.

But unless you or Erod cares to go back and document all of Ware's snaps and pressures over the last 3 years and compare and contrast them with those of Allen, Peppers, and Matthews over the last 3 years, it's all we have to go on from an unbiased perspective.

 

[Future]

Okay maybe it's not obvious. Maybe that's a bad choice of words. There is, however, evidence that both players rushed the passer more and less efficiently in each of the years mentioned though.

Pass Rushing Snaps 2012:
Allen: 638
Peppers: 487
Ware: 420

Pass Rushing Snaps 2011:
Allen: 567
Peppers: 537
Ware: 451


Pass Rushing Snaps 2010:
Peppers: 525
Allen: 524
Ware: 470

Totals over the years:
Allen: 1,729
Peppers: 1,549
Ware: 1,341

But unless you or Erod cares to go back and document all of Ware's snaps and pressures over the last 3 years and compare and contrast them with those of Allen, Peppers, and Matthews over the last 3 years, it's all we have to go on from an unbiased perspective.

Hmmm, those numbers seem low, but I guess I can't refute them :laugh2: They are surprising to me though.

I guess I can get on board with the idea that Ware is a more efficient pass rusher, and we can count the 4th quarter and "big moments" in that.

But if that is the case, and there is nobody who is more consistent late then Ware, then the idea of a clutch pass rusher is just a myth. To me, the eye test says that there are lots of times that Ware not only fails to get a sack, but doesn't sniff the QB.

 

[Nova]

Hmmm, those numbers seem low, but I guess I can't refute them :laugh2: They are surprising to me though.

I guess I can get on board with the idea that Ware is a more efficient pass rusher, and we can count the 4th quarter and "big moments" in that.

But if that is the case, and there is nobody who is more consistent late then Ware, then the idea of a clutch pass rusher is just a myth. To me, the eye test says that there are lots of times that Ware not only fails to get a sack, but doesn't sniff the QB.

Yeah it seemed low to me too, but then again he didn't rush the passer on 62 passing snaps last year. Combine that with the fact he was on the field for less than 900 snaps and a little less than half of those were running plays, it makes sense in the end.

I don't think it's a myth. I think it's just hard to have big moments when your team squanders them or if you don't have much help around you.

So we look at player X on X team on Sunday Night Football, or in the playoffs who has loads of help and makes one or two plays that, when isolated, have no more impact on the game than things that Ware does, but are magnified by the situation (especially if the team ends up winning and the announcers reflect back on it with hyperbole).

That's not to say there aren't better pass rushers than Ware. Again, Von Miller is doing things that Ware used to do and could eventually unseat him. But there aren't any in this era that have the combination of efficiency and gross numbers and therefore impact and longevity as DeMarcus Ware.

 

[Nation]

Hmmm, those numbers seem low, but I guess I can't refute them :laugh2: They are surprising to me though.

I guess I can get on board with the idea that Ware is a more efficient pass rusher, and we can count the 4th quarter and "big moments" in that.

But if that is the case, and there is nobody who is more consistent late then Ware, then the idea of a clutch pass rusher is just a myth. To me, the eye test says that there are lots of times that Ware not only fails to get a sack, but doesn't sniff the QB.

For some context, here's some data from Pro Football Focus from some of the elite non-Ware rushers in the NFL:

• Cameron Wake: 86 Pressures in 531 Pass Rushes
• Aldon Smith: 85 Pressures in 607 Pass Rushes
• Clay Matthews: 56 Pressures in 411 Pass Rushes
• Jason Pierre-Paul: 55 Pressures in 504 Pass Rushes
• Von Miller: 92 Pressures in 460 Pass Rushes

That's a total of 374 pressures in 2,513 Pass Rushes, or just 14.88% of the time that they rush the passer.


You're probably correct in that there are a lot of times in the 4th quarter that Ware not only fails to record a sack, but doesn't record a pressure. It's just incorrect for us to assume that he isn't rushing at an elite level regardless of that.