Revisiting Romo's Late Game Stats

[Cebrin]

I love my QB. Hope we do some damage this year. Cheers!

 

[jobberone]

Whats with you people and the word agenda? Nobody in this forum is important enough to have a agenda. Nothing we say matters. Its our opinions.

I usually stay away from Romo threads because i dont like him. And in threads i do post in i voice my hate for him, but i always admit that he's not the problem of this team. I only got into this thread because all i see is people like you trying to throw around all these GWD, and GWC garbage. When all that matters is wins and losses. What matters is when in decembers Romo while has thrown up yards galore, stats stardom. When the game is clutch and down to the wire. More often then not he has ended games with INTs. Thats why i say you all can argue this thread from both sides and be right. But you somehow think that because you want to be technical with stats and averages that, that somehow takes away Romo's game ending INTs that have been late in the yr that have costed the Cowboys games and even playoff births. He can keep you in the game, but if youre relying on him to get you a ame at the end of the yr, probability is he wont. And thats fact.

I'm speaking in generalities about agendas and I don't necessarily dump you in that bin. So I apologize for my poor choice of words in responding to you specifically and speaking in generalities. My bad.

If he has a game winning drive or game winning comeback then that does mean a win so that's not garbage. Those are the facts. I made them mitigating by stating some are a product of the team putting him in that position.

You keep bringing up game ending INTs as if they are the end of the discussion. He doesn't throw any more game ending INTs than most QBs do. They just stick out like a sore thumb and that's what people remember. They remember Romo throwing an INT to end our chances of winning but don't seem to understand he just put the team up and the TEAMS' defense gave the lead up and forced him to again produce or lose. You aren't going to win all those battles. The trick is to hold your leads enough times to win a good bit more than not without forcing your QB to win the game for you so often.

In the GB game they scored every time they touched the ball in the second half. They shredded us and the coaches saw it and tried to outscore them. I think they should have run the ball myself but you don't know that would have won either. Teams fumble just as much as they throw INTs. That loss is on the defense not the offense or on Romo. Same with most of the losses last year although Romo and others including the coaches participated in them as well.

Ditto much the same in the DEN and DET games. You can second guess the coaches in all those games (and I do) but the real problem was the defense couldn't stop anyone last year.

Your last statement flies in the face of the facts. He can get you a win in a do or die situation 40% of the time which is one of the best of all time. That means even the best QBs in that situation are going to fail 60% of the time. You don't seem to understand or accept that fact.

 

[jnday]

Well if youre watching it as carefully as youre implying with this post you yourself know that Romo's failures have come from him making bad throws, and keying in on Witten. If you go over his career a big portion of his INTs will be trying to force throws to Witten.

True, and another comment that Jobber made was about the players that had a high opinion of Romo. There are a few, no doubt, but from my impression, Romo is not well respected by other players for the most part. I doubt that one NFL player out of a hundred would choose Romo over Rodgers. In the last couple if years, Romo has been rated as the 10-12 th best QB in the league by all the sources I have read. Other than the hardcore homers, Romo is not that well thought of , even among Cowboy fans. Romo lovers will argue that they are right and everybody that disagrees with them are dumb and don't know anything about the game, but they don't realize just how much of a minority that they are. When Romo retires, he will go down in history with a reputation much like Danny White. I have my doubts if Romo is going to accomplish as much as White did, but Romo has stats and stats are the end-all with the Romo defenders because stats is all that he has going for him.

 

[jnday]

That is right, we blame Jerry, we blame the coaching, we blame the defense, we blame the poor offensive line in the past, we blame everyone at fault and that includes the QB too because he deserves blame.

He has gave away several big games with his turnovers, but for some reason, it was the team's fault.

 

[TwoDeep3]

The kinds of plays you describe happen with all quarterbacks on all teams, and they go the other way just as often too. As for your other point, that depends on the game doesn't it? I wouldn't blame Romo for the Denver loss last year, and I wouldn't give him credit for the win in Buffalo in '07 when he threw 5 interceptions either.

Apply common sense, in other words.

That's where we differ. Because to me he was the reason they lost against Denver.

 

[jobberone]

I'm actually similar to you in that I'm a fan of the NFL and players and watch a lot of it. That is why I found you comment of having a hard time choosing between Romo and Rodgers out there to say the least. Kindly note, I wasn't the only one on this thread who thought that comment was absurd. There is no comparison between the 2 QB's. One of them is way better than the other and it has nothing to do with age.

I have no agenda other than being honest with what I see on the field. I'm not going to sugar coat anything and no player is above scrutiny. If you're kicking butt out there (Dez,Tyron, Frederick, etc) I'm going to love you and sing your praises because you deserve it. If you choke when your team needs you most, i'm not going to defend you or act like it doesn't happen just because I like your cinderella story of being an undrafted FA, turned good QB or being the first good QB we had in a decade.

You get the last word.

We can agree to disagree. They are very similar QBs although they have some differing skills and faults. Rodgers can run and Romo shouldn't run unless escaping wild animals. Romo is actually better than Rodgers on the fly although I could argue the other way. Rodgers has a better arm. Rodgers holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks. No one other than Fran Tarkenton resembles Tony's ability to scramble and make plays. Romo has a much better % of winning games on the line which is the fact despite people crying otherwise. To me they are both elite.

Where we differ is Tony's stats and film show a very different guy than you perceive. And you NEVER miss an opportunity to bash Romo. I criticize him and praise him when its deserved. That's the difference between us. I've never seen you praise Romo. EVER. That's an agenda in my book. Since we're talking Romo and not any other player in the NFL now or ever then that's pertinent.

 

[percyhoward]

Which tells you how little insight stats can sometimes provide. Aaron Rodgers is one of the best late game QBs both now and in the history of the NFL based on QB rating, however, from a win/loss perspective his 4th quarter comeback record is SHOCKINGLY bad.

Makes you think about all the non-QB related factors that go into that "4th qtr comebacks" stat, when a guy with a 140 rating in the last 5 min of close games (who also happens to be the best QB in the league) actually can be made to look bad.

 

[LatinMind]

I'm speaking in generalities about agendas and I don't necessarily dump you in that bin. So I apologize for my poor choice of words in responding to you specifically and speaking in generalities. My bad.

If he has a game winning drive or game winning comeback then that does mean a win so that's not garbage. Those are the facts. I made them mitigating by stating some are a product of the team putting him in that position.

You keep bringing up game ending INTs as if they are the end of the discussion. He doesn't throw any more game ending INTs than most QBs do. They just stick out like a sore thumb and that's what people remember. They remember Romo throwing an INT to end our chances of winning but don't seem to understand he just put the team up and the TEAMS' defense gave the lead up and forced him to again produce or lose. You aren't going to win all those battles. The trick is to hold your leads enough times to win a good bit more than not without forcing your QB to win the game for you so often.

In the GB game they scored every time they touched the ball in the second half. They shredded us and the coaches saw it and tried to outscore them. I think they should have run the ball myself but you don't know that would have won either. Teams fumble just as much as they throw INTs. That loss is on the defense not the offense or on Romo. Same with most of the losses last year although Romo and others including the coaches participated in them as well.

Ditto much the same in the DEN and DET games. You can second guess the coaches in all those games (and I do) but the real problem was the defense couldn't stop anyone last year.

Your last statement flies in the face of the facts. He can get you a win in a do or die situation 40% of the time which is one of the best of all time. That means even the best QBs in that situation are going to fail 60% of the time. You don't seem to understand or accept that fact.

No, game ending INTs is not the end of the conversation. A debate on Romo's cons and pros will never end. Because he does so many things good, but at the flick of a light will break your heart with a bad throw. Thats why he such a polarizing figure. The same was said about Steve Young, John Elway, and Brett Favre until they won the big game. I actually think its bigger with Romo because he's a Cowboy.

That GB game will not win you any point with me. Dallas knew the defense was bad. going up 26-3 at the half. You run the ball. The run the ball 5 times in the first driv of the 2nd half. and then run the ball 4 times the rest of the game. You make any kind of effort to run the ball and they were having success doing it. You shorten the game and GB doesnt have time to make a comeback. Even then Dallas still couldve run it out. But they throw and Romo throws 2 INTS to end it

 

[jobberone]

He has gave away several big games with his turnovers, but for some reason, it was the team's fault.

No one said that. People have said the team gave up leads often a minute or so after he gave us one; forcing him to again save the day. You can't or won't understand why that's a bad thing. Since the very best ever to play lead their teams to wins in those situation only 40% of the time then your expectations for Tony are unrealistic. Now that's not saying he hasn't ever thrown a pass for an INT to end the game he shouldn't have. He has failed. But you act like those things are only a Tony thing and label him a choker based on a few plays. You overlook the rest of his game. That's where you're going wrong. But most of this is for the average reader as you aren't going to be objective about this for whatever reasons.

 

[percyhoward]

That's where we differ. Because to me he was the reason they lost against Denver.

Yeah I'll take 16 games' worth of that performance.

 

[jobberone]

True, and another comment that Jobber made was about the players that had a high opinion of Romo. There are a few, no doubt, but from my impression, Romo is not well respected by other players for the most part. I doubt that one NFL player out of a hundred would choose Romo over Rodgers. In the last couple if years, Romo has been rated as the 10-12 th best QB in the league by all the sources I have read. Other than the hardcore homers, Romo is not that well thought of , even among Cowboy fans. Romo lovers will argue that they are right and everybody that disagrees with them are dumb and don't know anything about the game, but they don't realize just how much of a minority that they are. When Romo retires, he will go down in history with a reputation much like Danny White. I have my doubts if Romo is going to accomplish as much as White did, but Romo has stats and stats are the end-all with the Romo defenders because stats is all that he has going for him.

Of course there will be players who do and don't support Romo. Coaches and pundits, too. Just like the fans here. The point was Roger and Troy are both HOF QBs and both know the situation around Romo as well as anyone; better I'd say. Troy is not reluctant to call a spade a spade and he's criticized Romo as he should at times. But he and Roger have both said Tony can win SBs. That's enough endorsement for me. Again, we don't know all the reasons plays are called or not called or where passes are supposed to go and who should have been where. Some are on Tony and a few have stunk and ended games. That's not abnormal even though you seem to think only Romo does that.

 

[jobberone]

No, game ending INTs is not the end of the conversation. A debate on Romo's cons and pros will never end. Because he does so many things good, but at the flick of a light will break your heart with a bad throw. Thats why he such a polarizing figure. The same was said about Steve Young, John Elway, and Brett Favre until they won the big game. I actually think its bigger with Romo because he's a Cowboy.

That GB game will not win you any point with me. Dallas knew the defense was bad. going up 26-3 at the half. You run the ball. The run the ball 5 times in the first driv of the 2nd half. and then run the ball 4 times the rest of the game. You make any kind of effort to run the ball and they were having success doing it. You shorten the game and GB doesnt have time to make a comeback. Even then Dallas still couldve run it out. But they throw and Romo throws 2 INTS to end it

You won't get an argument from me about that. But you're blaming the wrong guy(s). Put that on the D and the HC and OC. You can't make me believe coach says run the ball Tony unless you really see something big and you better not turn the ball over (or I'll yank you). The only explanation for that clusterfudge is they decided to try to outscore them and IT was a BAD decision as most would agree. The D holds one time in the second half and we squeeze the win out. I don't blame them too much since any and everyone was trashing the defense. They just had zero confidence in stopping anyone; with good reason. But they should have run the ball and seen what happened. That's my call and yours, too.

I think SB wins are team wins but you almost always have to have a QB to win that; win period anymore. And you often have to run effectively and have a very good defense. But that applies all the time. All of it does.

 

[jobberone]

Yeah I'll take 16 games' worth of that performance.

People need to really look at that sig before posting; esp in this thread.

 

[Jarv]

That's where we differ. Because to me he was the reason they lost against Denver.

Not the 50 points the defense gave up...Only 1 defensive stop all game by the defense? Thats like me blaming you for the bad economy because you didn't go out to dinner 7 times last week and bolster the restaurant business...lol.

 

[iceberg]

Ice, there is just no helping you. I used common sense when I explained my position. If you are honest, you can't deny that Romo has cost the team wins with his turnovers.

And I have sa as such. But also said our D has cost us more.

 

[Jarv]

No. Good job trying to spin what I said though. Winning percentage is relevant(of course you factor in things like # of games played). A top five of Montana staubach Elway Brady manning, makes it credible.

Yeah, Steve Young was a terrible QB in Tampa but a hall of famer for the 49'ers. Had nothing to do with the teams...lol. You crack me up. Archie Manning sucked to, although somehow made the pro bowl.

 

[jnday]

No one said that. People have said the team gave up leads often a minute or so after he gave us one; forcing him to again save the day. You can't or won't understand why that's a bad thing. Since the very best ever to play lead their teams to wins in those situation only 40% of the time then your expectations for Tony are unrealistic. Now that's not saying he hasn't ever thrown a pass for an INT to end the game he shouldn't have. He has failed. But you act like those things are only a Tony thing and label him a choker based on a few plays. You overlook the rest of his game. That's where you're going wrong. But most of this is for the average reader as you aren't going to be objective about this for whatever reasons.

I have said before that I don't worry about other QBs or what they do. I am a Cowboys fan , so I only worry about Romo and his failures. I don't compare him to other QBs , because I just don't care . Another reason that I don't compare QB failures is due to other QB failures are used as an excuse to justify Romo's bad plays. I have read too many times that Brady and Manning makes those bad plays too, so Tony is just doing the same thing as these other QBs. That is dumb reasoning and I don't agree with excusing Romo for these reasons. As for my expectations for Romo, I do expect him to win one of the "win or go home" games. I don't expect him to win more than 40% of them. It would be nice if he could just win one. It is not unreasonable to expect him to win a couple of these games against teams with winning records in the last couple of minutes. Again, I don't expect him to win them all, just win one every once in a while. I don't expect turnovers and failure in all of these games, but the stats show that is the results. There is no need in blaming the team for Romo's failures. The team is not the ones that are making the bad throws. The opportunities have been there for Romo to win these big games, but it hasn't happened. You mention that I am using just a few plays to label him as a choker. It is more than just a few. There was a partial list posted on this board a few days ago and it was lengthy. It didn't list all of the failures either. Romo's record against the better teams in this league is horrible. Romo has had every chance to change this record, but he has failed. Is it unreasonable to expect for Romo to win one of these games?

 

[jobberone]

I have said before that I don't worry about other QBs or what they do. I am a Cowboys fan , so I only worry about Romo and his failures. I don't compare him to other QBs , because I just don't care . Another reason that I don't compare QB failures is due to other QB failures are used as an excuse to justify Romo's bad plays. I have read too many times that Brady and Manning makes those bad plays too, so Tony is just doing the same thing as these other QBs. That is dumb reasoning and I don't agree with excusing Romo for these reasons. As for my expectations for Romo, I do expect him to win one of the "win or go home" games. I don't expect him to win more than 40% of them. It would be nice if he could just win one. It is not unreasonable to expect him to win a couple of these games against teams with winning records in the last couple of minutes. Again, I don't expect him to win them all, just win one every once in a while. I don't expect turnovers and failure in all of these games, but the stats show that is the results. There is no need in blaming the team for Romo's failures. The team is not the ones that are making the bad throws. The opportunities have been there for Romo to win these big games, but it hasn't happened. You mention that I am using just a few plays to label him as a choker. It is more than just a few. There was a partial list posted on this board a few days ago and it was lengthy. It didn't list all of the failures either. Romo's record against the better teams in this league is horrible. Romo has had every chance to change this record, but he has failed. Is it unreasonable to expect for Romo to win one of these games?

I just don't know how to respond to this. I will say it is not unreasonable at all to expect him to have 'won' one of those games although its still a team game.

It's just completely unreasonable to label a guy with one of the best game winning percentages in the history of the game a choker.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

I have said before that I don't worry about other QBs or what they do. I am a Cowboys fan , so I only worry about Romo and his failures. I don't compare him to other QBs , because I just don't care . Another reason that I don't compare QB failures is due to other QB failures are used as an excuse to justify Romo's bad plays. I have read too many times that Brady and Manning makes those bad plays too, so Tony is just doing the same thing as these other QBs. That is dumb reasoning and I don't agree with excusing Romo for these reasons. As for my expectations for Romo, I do expect him to win one of the "win or go home" games. I don't expect him to win more than 40% of them. It would be nice if he could just win one. It is not unreasonable to expect him to win a couple of these games against teams with winning records in the last couple of minutes. Again, I don't expect him to win them all, just win one every once in a while. I don't expect turnovers and failure in all of these games, but the stats show that is the results. There is no need in blaming the team for Romo's failures. The team is not the ones that are making the bad throws. The opportunities have been there for Romo to win these big games, but it hasn't happened. You mention that I am using just a few plays to label him as a choker. It is more than just a few. There was a partial list posted on this board a few days ago and it was lengthy. It didn't list all of the failures either. Romo's record against the better teams in this league is horrible. Romo has had every chance to change this record, but he has failed. Is it unreasonable to expect for Romo to win one of these games?

This is the dumbest thing I've read since the last thing you posted. I don't care what any other quarterback does, I'll just make up my own magical standard so I can always have something to complain about. Hey Drew Brees, completing 70% of your passes is totally unacceptable when it is still possible to complete 80 or even 90. You get to work on that.
You keep babbling about a long list of "failures". Why don't you tell me how long the list should be for a 10 year veteran so I can go get one of your QB heroes list and you can see how long theirs is? Oh, I forgot, your made up magical standard.

 

[iceberg]

I have said before that I don't worry about other QBs or what they do. I am a Cowboys fan , so I only worry about Romo and his failures. I don't compare him to other QBs , because I just don't care . Another reason that I don't compare QB failures is due to other QB failures are used as an excuse to justify Romo's bad plays. I have read too many times that Brady and Manning makes those bad plays too, so Tony is just doing the same thing as these other QBs. That is dumb reasoning and I don't agree with excusing Romo for these reasons. As for my expectations for Romo, I do expect him to win one of the "win or go home" games. I don't expect him to win more than 40% of them. It would be nice if he could just win one. It is not unreasonable to expect him to win a couple of these games against teams with winning records in the last couple of minutes. Again, I don't expect him to win them all, just win one every once in a while. I don't expect turnovers and failure in all of these games, but the stats show that is the results. There is no need in blaming the team for Romo's failures. The team is not the ones that are making the bad throws. The opportunities have been there for Romo to win these big games, but it hasn't happened. You mention that I am using just a few plays to label him as a choker. It is more than just a few. There was a partial list posted on this board a few days ago and it was lengthy. It didn't list all of the failures either. Romo's record against the better teams in this league is horrible. Romo has had every chance to change this record, but he has failed. Is it unreasonable to expect for Romo to win one of these games?

Yes