Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning?

[CATCH17]

Well until our team gets better kjj will always have a leg to stand on even when it's obvious who the better player is.


And yes Warren Moon is better than big Ben too.

 

[KJJ]

Well until our team gets better kjj will always have a leg to stand on even when it's obvious who the better player is.


And yes Warren Moon is better than big Ben too.

Romo's had some good teams especially the team in 07 that had 13 pro bowlers on it which was more than the Packers and Steelers combined this season.

In 09 the Cowboys knocked off the 13-0 Saints in the dome. Romo has played on a 13-3 team that was a #1 seed and an 11-5 team that was good enough to win a playoff game so how much better a team does he need exactly?

You're saying Romo and Warren Moon are better QB's than Roethlisberger based off their regular season numbers is that correct?

If it was all about regular season stats 9 QB's would be greater than Joe Montana including Vinny T and Drew Bledsoe.

There's QB's like Shaun Hill, Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Marc Bulger and several others who's career passer rating is higher than Staubachs, Bradshaws and Aikman's.

Those QB's have 9 SB wins between them. Even Neil O'Donnell had a career passer rating slightly higher than Aikman's.

Romo's career passer rating is currently 4th all time ahead of Brady, Montana and Drew Brees.

During the regular season even some average QB's can be amongst the all time greats if you go strictly by regular season numbers.

What separates these QB's is what they accomplished in BIG games primarily post season games. Warren Moon was 3-8 in the playoffs.

He had as many turnovers in the playoffs as he did TD passes.

You don't seem to understand there's intangibles some QB's have that can't be measured in stats.

If your life depended on one game and you had to choose one of those QB's you wouldn't pick Romo or Moon over Roethlisberger unless you have a death wish. LOL

Who do you think was a better QB Warren Moon or Troy Aikman? Explain your answer! Let's see if it corresponds with your reasoning behind Romo and Moon being better QB's than Roethlisberger.

 

[CATCH17]

Im saying Romo and Warren Moon are better than Roethlisberger based on their ability.


I think Rogers is better than Big Ben too and he doesn't even have a ring on his finger.


Big Ben is just in the most absolute perfect situation for a QB.


Even Payton Manning never got to the big game until his defense finally carried him to the Superbowl.


I like Roethlisberger. I think he is a very timely player. But I just don't see him having the same type of success if he is the Cowboys QB.


If you can't play 4 quarters @ the QB position in Dallas our defense will get you blown out.

 

[gbrittain]

Romo's had some good teams especially the team in 07 that had 13 pro bowlers on it which was more than the Packers and Steelers combined this season.

In 09 the Cowboys knocked off the 13-0 Saints in the dome. Romo has played on a 13-3 team that was a #1 seed and an 11-5 team that was good enough to win a playoff game so how much better a team does he need exactly?

You're saying Romo and Warren Moon are better QB's than Roethlisberger based off their regular season numbers is that correct?

If it was all about regular season stats 9 QB's would be greater than Joe Montana including Vinny T and Drew Bledsoe.

There's QB's like Shaun Hill, Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Marc Bulger and several others who's career passer rating is higher than Staubachs, Bradshaws and Aikman's.

Those QB's have 9 SB wins between them. Even Neil O'Donnell had a career passer rating slightly higher than Aikman's.

Romo's career passer rating is currently 4th all time ahead of Brady, Montana and Drew Brees.

During the regular season even some average QB's can be amongst the all time greats if you go strictly by regular season numbers.

What separates these QB's is what they accomplished in BIG games primarily post season games. Warren Moon was 3-8 in the playoffs.

He had as many turnovers in the playoffs as he did TD passes.

You don't seem to understand there's intangibles some QB's have that can't be measured in stats.

If your life depended on one game and you had to choose one of those QB's you wouldn't pick Romo or Moon over Roethlisberger unless you have a death wish. LOL

Who do you think was a better QB Warren Moon or Troy Aikman? Explain your answer! Let's see if it corresponds with your reasoning behind Romo and Moon being better QB's than Roethlisberger.

KJJ, In my own opinion your last few posts, appear to be a little bit more sensible, but not that agree with everything you have said.

However, what I have bolded above is exactly what I am talking about...context.

You say things, but I am beginning to believe that a lot of it is just your perception when in fact you have done no research at all.

Ben R has played in 12 playoff games and Warren Moon in 10 playoff games.

Ben Career Playoff Stats:
Completion 61.1%
Yards 2598
TD 17
INT 14
Rate 85.4

Warren Career Playoff Stats:
Completion 64.3%
Yards 2870
TD 17
INT 14
Rate 84.9

You just used Warren's TD to INT ratio to indict Warren Moon's playoff performance. His numbers are almost identical to Ben Rs and his TD to INT ratio is identical.

This is a perfect example of what I have been trying to illustrate. If it is good for the goose it is good for the gander.

 

[KJJ]

You say things, but I am beginning to believe that a lot of it is just your perception when in fact you have done no research at all.

If I hadn't done any research I wouldn't be coming up with any stats I don't just make numbers up.

Ben R has played in 12 playoff games and Warren Moon in 10 playoff games.

Ben Career Playoff Stats:
Completion 61.1%
Yards 2598
TD 17
INT 14
Rate 85.4

Warren Career Playoff Stats:
Completion 64.3%
Yards 2870
TD 17
INT 14
Rate 84.9

You just used Warren's TD to INT ratio to indict Warren Moon's playoff performance. His numbers are almost identical to Ben Rs and his TD to INT ratio is identical.

This is a perfect example of what I have been trying to illustrate. If it is good for the goose it is good for the gander.

Moon's TD to turnover ratio int's/fumbles isn't what indicts him it's his 3-7 playoff record that does.

Even though Roethlisbergers turnover ration was virtually identical to Moons his playoff record is 10-2 including 2 SB wins.

Stats don't always tell the entire story that was proven with some of the career passer ratings I posted. When games are in the balance and Roethlisberger has to make a play in a critical situation he makes the play he doesn't turn the ball over.

Some turnovers are more costly than others and come at more inopportune times and are unable to to be overcome.

Joe Montana had 3 turnovers against the Cowboys in the 81 NFC title game but they weren't real costly.

When the game was in the balance and he had to make plays he made them and didn't turn the ball over.

Moon had chances to win several playoff games but had some costly turnovers in those games that couldn't be overcome. He couldn't rally his team in the playoffs the way Roethlisberger is able to rally the Steelers when games are in the balance.

Moon was unable to rally his team in a 17-10 playoff loss to Buffalo in 88. He was unable to rally his team in a 26-24 playoff loss to Denver in 91.

He had his Oilers up 35-3 in the 3rd quarter against Buffalo in the playoffs in 92 and had 2 costly turnovers in the second half that helped the wheels come off his team.

While his defense was crumbling he couldn't do anything in the second half of that game. It ended up being the all time biggest collapse in NFL history.

Moon was unable to rally his team in a 28-20 playoff loss to KC in 93. His teams had chances in several of those games and he couldn't make critical plays in crunch time to keep drives alive.

Warren Moon was a "stat" QB who played 17 years in the NFL accumulating big numbers and was elected to the HOF off those numbers. The greatest QB's were clutch and he wasn't clutch!

Do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Roethlisberger?

 

[CATCH17]

If I hadn't done any research I wouldn't be coming up with any stats I don't just make numbers up.





Moon's TD to turnover ratio int's/fumbles isn't what indicts him it's his 3-7 playoff record that does.

Even though Roethlisbergers turnover ration was virtually identical to Moons his playoff record is 10-2 including 2 SB wins.

Stats don't always tell the entire story that was proven with some of the career passer ratings I posted. When games are in the balance and Roethlisberger has to make a play in a critical situation he makes the play he doesn't turn the ball over.

Some turnovers are more costly than others and come at more inopportune times and are unable to to be overcome.

Joe Montana had 3 turnovers against the Cowboys in the 81 NFC title game but they weren't real costly.

When the game was in the balance and he had to make plays he made them and didn't turn the ball over.

Moon had chances to win several playoff games but had some costly turnovers in those games that couldn't be overcome. He couldn't rally his team in the playoffs the way Roethlisberger is able to rally the Steelers when games are in the balance.

Moon was unable to rally his team in a 17-10 playoff loss to Buffalo in 88. He was unable to rally his team in a 26-24 playoff loss to Denver in 91.

He had his Oilers up 35-3 in the 3rd quarter against Buffalo in the playoffs in 92 and had 2 costly turnovers in the second half that helped the wheels come off his team.

While his defense was crumbling he couldn't do anything in the second half of that game. It ended up being the all time biggest collapse in NFL history.

Moon was unable to rally his team in a 28-20 playoff loss to KC in 93. His teams had chances in several of those games and he couldn't make critical plays in crunch time to keep drives alive.

Warren Moon was a "stat" QB who played 17 years in the NFL accumulating big numbers and was elected to the HOF off those numbers. The greatest QB's were clutch and he wasn't clutch!

Do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Roethlisberger?

Warren Moons defense is why he never got to the Superbowl.

If he was in his prime on Pitts team than he would be in that game.

 

[KJJ]

Im saying Romo and Warren Moon are better than Roethlisberger based on their ability.

If that's the case then I guess you think Mike Vick is also a better QB than Roethlisbrerger? LOL Just because Roethlisberger doesn't look pretty running around side stepping defenders he gets the job done. He's a winner!

Speaking of side stepping you didn't answer my question do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Troy Aikman? Standup and answer the question.

 

[gbrittain]

If I hadn't done any research I wouldn't be coming up with any stats I don't just make numbers up.

Stats don't always tell the entire story

Then why did you bring it up???

 

[CATCH17]

If that's the case then I guess you think Mike Vick is also a better QB than Roethlisbrerger? LOL Just because Roethlisberger doesn't look pretty running around side stepping defenders he gets the job done. He's a winner!

Speaking of side stepping you didn't answer my question do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Troy Aikman? Standup and answer the question.

No Vick can't hold up. If he could he would be a top 3 QB.


But then again... With Pittsburgh Defense and Run Game backing him the sky is the limit.


They went 3-1 with scabs to begin the season. They carried Big Ben to the Superbowl as a sophomore.

 

[Stautner]

If that's the case then I guess you think Mike Vick is also a better QB than Roethlisbrerger? LOL Just because Roethlisberger doesn't look pretty running around side stepping defenders he gets the job done. He's a winner!

Speaking of side stepping you didn't answer my question do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Troy Aikman? Standup and answer the question.

What CATCH17 apparently doesn't understand is that "ability" is only as good as how you use it, and if a QB who is a lesser athlete accomplishes more than one who is a better athlete then the lesser athlete is a better QB.

Obviously there is the caveat that accomplishment can be defined differently, and factors other than QB play go into team accomplishment, but the point remains that it doesn't matter who the better physical talent is, what matters is how the player actually performs.

I don't necessarily see that Rom has more "ability" anyway. He's smaller and quicker than Ben, but Ben is stronger and probably has a stronger arm as well, so it's not exactly clear cut who has more ability.

 

[percyhoward]

But then again... With Pittsburgh Defense and Run Game backing him the sky is the limit. They went 3-1 with scabs to begin the season. They carried Big Ben to the Superbowl as a sophomore.

I think they carried him into the Super Bowl this year, winning the conference championship game despite his 35.5 rating. It's the third time they've won a playoff game when he's had below a 60 rating.

 

[KJJ]

Warren Moons defense is why he never got to the Superbowl.

If he was in his prime on Pitts team than he would be in that game.

That Bills defense that Moon was shredding in the 92 playoffs got to the SB. His teams got beat by teams that didn't always have great defenses.

Moon would have never survived behind some of the OL's Roethlisberger has played behind.

Ben led his team to a championship 2 years ago behind the worst OL in SB history and his defense got carved up by Kurt Warner for 377 yards and 3 TD's.

Roethlisberger bailed his defense out in that game after Larry Fitzgerald caught a 64 yard TD pass with just over 2 min to play in the game.

A lot of Moons turnovers in critical situations came because he was under duress.

It's easy to sit here saying Moon and Romo could have made the same plays as Roethlisberger when there's plenty of film of them proving they couldn't in those same situations.

You honestly believe if you put Romo and Moon behind the Steelers OL they'll pull away from defenders draped all over them just like Roethlisberger to make critical plays during the postseason? :laugh2:

How about digging up some footage of Romo and Moon making those kind of plays in postseason when games were in the balance to support your position. Good luck! LOL

 

[KJJ]

Then why did you bring it up???

To prove that stats don't always tell the entire story.

 

[gbrittain]

It is kind of like if Usain Bolt ran a relay race and the other baton carriers were the three stooges. I could just say Usain doesn't have what it takes or I could hold out hope that we replace the three stooges with some more competent runners.

In this scenario, I am holding out for more competent runners and others see four stooges instead of three.

We shall see...

 

[gbrittain]

To prove that stats don't always tell the entire story.

Fair enough. For future reference you may want to say and Ben R has a crappy TD to INT ratio too, but...

Just food for thought.

 

[KJJ]

No Vick can't hold up. If he could he would be a top 3 QB.


But then again... With Pittsburgh Defense and Run Game backing him the sky is the limit.


They went 3-1 with scabs to begin the season. They carried Big Ben to the Superbowl as a sophomore.

So you think Romo and Moon have better ability than Roethlisberger but you don't think Vick has better ability than him? Stop putting a spin on everything and be specific!

You're still avoiding my question do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Troy Aikman?

 

[gbrittain]

You honestly believe if you put Romo and Moon behind the Steelers OL they'll pull away from defenders draped all over them just like Roethlisberger to make critical plays during the postseason? :laugh2:

You know what I would honestly like to see? Mike Tomlin fired Wade Phillips hired, Pittsburgh D switched with Dallas D and then see a Super Bowl or two by Big Ben.

If he could pull that off, I would personally go to Canton and help build the Ben R wing myself!!!

 

[KJJ]

Fair enough. For future reference you may want to say and Ben R has a crappy TD to INT ratio too, but...

Just food for thought.

His TD to turnover ratio doesn't matter it's his winning percentage in postseason that matters.

Victories aren't awarded off of stats.

I judge QB's on wins and losses and how they perform in big games. I could care less if one QB's numbers are beautiful and the other QB's are ugly it's the QB who ends up with the W that earns my respect.

It's not about numbers it's about WINNING and doing what it takes to get it done in the end.

Sure Roethlisberger's had some help from his defense but he also picked up 2 critical 3rd downs to keep his defense off the field in the final minutes last Sunday.

Two years ago I saw him bail his defense out that had just given up the lead with just over 2 minutes to play with a SB winning drive in the final seconds.

 

[CATCH17]

That Bills defense that Moon was shredding in the 92 playoffs got to the SB. His teams got beat by teams that didn't always have great defenses.

Moon would have never survived behind some of the OL's Roethlisberger has played behind.

Ben led his team to a championship 2 years ago behind the worst OL in SB history and his defense got carved up by Kurt Warner for 377 yards and 3 TD's.

Roethlisberger bailed his defense out in that game after Larry Fitzgerald caught a 64 yard TD pass with just over 2 min to play in the game.

A lot of Moons turnovers in critical situations came because he was under duress.

It's easy to sit here saying Moon and Romo could have made the same plays as Roethlisberger when there's plenty of film of them proving they couldn't in those same situations.

You honestly believe if you put Romo and Moon behind the Steelers OL they'll pull away from defenders draped all over them just like Roethlisberger to make critical plays during the postseason? :laugh2:

How about digging up some footage of Romo and Moon making those kind of plays in postseason when games were in the balance to support your position. Good luck! LOL

All he would have to do is survive to get to the Superbowl in Pittsburgh.

 

[CATCH17]

So you think Romo and Moon have better ability than Roethlisberger but you don't think Vick has better ability than him? Stop putting a spin on everything and be specific!

You're still avoiding my question do you think Warren Moon was a better QB than Troy Aikman?

I like Ben better as a passer over Vick for 1.

2 Mike Vick can't hold up for 16 weeks. Even worse if we go to 18.


Vick is fantastic but he can't hold up with his style and isn't good enough in the pocket for me to warrant taking him over Big Ben.





Oh.. And do I think Moon was better than Aikman..? No. Whats that supposed to prove?

I think Moon probably wins a Superbowl as the Cowboys QB if thats what you're getting at.

Everything was centered around 22, Oline, and Defense.. Aikman was on down the list and if you bring in another HOF passer we'd still be ok as long as Emmitt is alive and breathing.