Roy won't get ripped this season

[Future]

if that's the case, why didn't owens make the probowl?

Because the media focused more on the off-field aspect and drops of last season. They largely ignored the fact that he led the league in touchdown catches.

 

[DallasEast]

Because the media focused more on the off-field aspect and drops of last season. They largely ignored the fact that he led the league in touchdown catches.

That may explain how fans may have voted in regards to Owens, which equaled 1/3 of Pro Bowl balloting. Still, I doubt that the media had as much influence over the players and coaches, who account for the other two-thirds of Pro Bowl balloting.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Because the media focused more on the off-field aspect and drops of last season. They largely ignored the fact that he led the league in touchdown catches.

Largely or completely?

 

[BlackJackMurphy]

You cannot defend Roy - he's flat out brutal in deep coverage , his tackling is at an all time low, he's been runover and dragged more than ever - the guy is overpaid, overweight, and overrated.
Stop the denial - it's quite sickening. After Wade Phillips , Roy Williams has the most to prove on this club - we have to HIDE our $25 million dollar player. Is he a big hitter? yes, is he anything else? no.

 

[Howley54]

I'm not sure it's possible to snag 5 INTs and not be able to cover. Dawkins gets all the good press from a team-friendly media, but he's only got 16 INTS since 2001. 85 games. RW has 17 in his 80 game career. Dawk snagged 16 in his first 87 games, too. FS v. SS, I know, but that should further strengthen the point.

 

[Howley54]

Ah, its the old pro bowl argument when someone can't find a real way to defend a player...he makes pro bowls because of homeristic fans (including myself) who vote him in and casual fans who only watch the highlight reels.

Last I checked, fan voting only counted a third. The other two thirds being the players and coaches. I kinda side with Parcells on this one. There was often some other stuff going on back there that wasn't his fault.

 

[tomson75]

You cannot defend Roy

Actually, I can...and I can do so using something that seems to allude you...facts.-

he's flat out brutal in deep coverage

Hmmm...seems like I recall seeing a FACT that he was actually ranked in the upper third in coverage by ALL safeties. Oh wait, he's a SS isn't he...yeah, he's real brutal ,

his tackling is at an all time low, he's been runover and dragged more than ever

You're right, his tackles are at an all time low, but I noticed that you didn't mention that his INT's and passed defensed are at an all time high. Doesn't bode well for your first theory, does it?

- the guy is overpaid, overweight, and overrated.

Everyone in the NFL is overpaid. Williams is actually being paid rather fairly by NFL standards though. His wieght is down to 221. He's now underrated...thanks to people like yourself...try to keep up.

Stop the denial - it's quite sickening. After Wade Phillips , Roy Williams has the most to prove on this club - we have to HIDE our $25 million dollar player. Is he a big hitter? yes, is he anything else? no.

I'm too bored with this to highlight anything else. Your lack of insight is what is sickening. IMO, of course.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

BlackJack's made a reference to Scott Case earlier... I knew he sounded familar...

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37980

 

[jem88]

Man the 70's team was lucky not to have the internet around back then or all these TV football gurus. Do people think guys like Cliff Harris or Charlie Waters were never beaten on plays? That they never gave up TD's? When you look at the overall player in Roy Williams the good and the bad I come to the conclusion that he brings more positives than negatives to this team.

True enough, but Williams has also been a beneficiary of the highlights saturation that we've experienced in recent years.

 

[tomson75]

BlackJack's made a reference to Scott Case earlier... I knew he sounded familar...

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37980

That's beyond familiar...good call CL.

 

[cowboyeric8]

Howley54, welcome, and post more often man, those were 2 good posts.

I like Roy Williams and I know he isn't perfect in everything he does. Thats because NOBODY is. I've seen Ware take bad angles, or go to far up field. Guess what, it happens. Every player makes mistakes. Take off the Roy Williams sucks glasses and look at what he has. He shows up makes plays and helps win games, don't know what more you want.

Its hard to intelligently argue with these Roy haters because they don't look at facts and they are agenda driven. JMO

 

[tomson75]

I'm not sure it's possible to snag 5 INTs and not be able to cover. Dawkins gets all the good press from a team-friendly media, but he's only got 16 INTS since 2001. 85 games. RW has 17 in his 80 game career. Dawk snagged 16 in his first 87 games, too. FS v. SS, I know, but that should further strengthen the point.

Interesting stat there. I wouldn't get my hopes up that they'd sink in with the likes of Blackjack, but interesting nontheless.

 

[junk]

It's so weird to me. Let's say that on a totally objective scale, a player is an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. There's a group of fans out there that seem to take it as a personal offense if the player is called a 9 instead. But what difference does it make?

Not talking about Junk here, as he is a very reasonable poster. But it aggravates some posters to no end if a player is "overrated". I truly don't get it.

Depends on your perspective, I guess. I think a lot of my frustration is simply due to the fact that I had such high hopes for the guy.

He certainly gets his fair share of criticism, but he also has his share of supporters that don't want to hear any of that criticism. If you bring it up, your intelligence is questioned.

He is a good player. He does, however, struggle in coverage and teams do make an effort to isolate him in coverage. I think he could be a better player with a stronger offseason work ethic and if he'd hold himself somewhat accountable for the coverage lapses (and this last year, tackling lapses). Listening to him, you'd think he was perfect last year doing his job and covering for the rest of the secondary. I guess if he is so knowledgable about what is going on in the secondary, why'd the team make such a big push to bring someone in make the secondary calls?

I hope this is the year he gets closer to his rookie performance. They've changed the scheme to suit him and they brought in another safety to make the calls and play center field.

 

[tomson75]

Depends on your perspective, I guess. I think a lot of my frustration is simply due to the fact that I had such high hopes for the guy.

He certainly gets his fair share of criticism, but he also has his share of supporters that don't want to hear any of that criticism. If you bring it up, your intelligence is questioned.

He is a good player. He does, however, struggle in coverage and teams do make an effort to isolate him in coverage. I think he could be a better player with a stronger offseason work ethic and if he'd hold himself somewhat accountable for the coverage lapses (and this last year, tackling lapses). Listening to him, you'd think he was perfect last year doing his job and covering for the rest of the secondary. I guess if he is so knowledgable about what is going on in the secondary, why'd the team make such a big push to bring someone in make the secondary calls?

I hope this is the year he gets closer to his rookie performance. They've changed the scheme to suit him and they brought in another safety to make the calls and play center field.

Now THAT is a very reasonable argument. I agree with most, if not all, of this.

I'll have to admit...I think my least favorite thing about Roy may be his lack of accountability. Despite his coverage struggles.

edit...although, if he didn't struggle in coverage...I guess he wouldn't need to be held accountable.

 

[junk]

Howley54, welcome, and post more often man, those were 2 good posts.

I like Roy Williams and I know he isn't perfect in everything he does. Thats because NOBODY is. I've seen Ware take bad angles, or go to far up field. Guess what, it happens. Every player makes mistakes. Take off the Roy Williams sucks glasses and look at what he has. He shows up makes plays and helps win games, don't know what more you want.

Its hard to intelligently argue with these Roy haters because they don't look at facts and they are agenda driven. JMO

See, this is part of the problem. You can criticize the guy and not hate him. I don't hate him, I just thought he should be capable of more.

Sean Jones had as many interceptions, more sacks and more tackles than Roy last year.....does that make him a better player? Pointing out interceptions is just part of the equation.

Teams frequently targeted the deep middle of the field to challenge James and Roy last year. The Cowboys finished 24th in pass defense last year. Only three teams had more touchdowns scored on them through the air.

He isn't perfect (and no one should expect him to be), but when he spends the offseason comparing himself to Jesus, ballooning up to 247 and telling anyone who asks about his coverage issues that they don't what they are talking about, it is kind of annoying. Step up, be a leader and work on your shortcomings.

Everyone wants to talk about how much more effective he is going to be closer to the line this year, but if you bring up the fact that he'll likely be asked to cover TEs and backs on a more regular basis and that he has struggled with that in the past, you get called a mouth breather. Where is the intelligent argument there?

 

[Howley54]

Depends on your perspective, I guess. I think a lot of my frustration is simply due to the fact that I had such high hopes for the guy.

He certainly gets his fair share of criticism, but he also has his share of supporters that don't want to hear any of that criticism. If you bring it up, your intelligence is questioned.

Fair criticism is fair criticism, but I don't think there's nearly as much real, analytical discussion as there is simple headline grabbing, highlight-watching and homerism. Did anybody but me notice that on a lot of those long passes in which "Biscuit got burned AGAIN" last year, the two safeties were the closest guys to the play? The deep zone is split in 2 halves in a cover 2 D, and if you've got two safeties in one zone it's because one of them left their zone, probably after the QB's release. I think that Roy's been doing a lot of that, and it appears that it's him getting burned when in reality it's him running in from his zone and frequently not getting there in time to make the play. I think that's what Parcells was referring to during the season.

I'm not saying that he's the best in coverage, but I am saying that anyone who thinks he can't cover must not understand the game as well as they like to think that they do.

He is a good player. He does, however, struggle in coverage and teams do make an effort to isolate him in coverage. I think he could be a better player with a stronger offseason work ethic and if he'd hold himself somewhat accountable for the coverage lapses (and this last year, tackling lapses). Listening to him, you'd think he was perfect last year doing his job and covering for the rest of the secondary. I guess if he is so knowledgable about what is going on in the secondary, why'd the team make such a big push to bring someone in make the secondary calls?

I'm not so sure that's why Hamlin was brought in. He'll make the calls, sure, but that's because he'll be the lone deep guy most of the time.

I hope this is the year he gets closer to his rookie performance. They've changed the scheme to suit him and they brought in another safety to make the calls and play center field.

THe scheme wasn't changed just to suit him, the scheme was changed because Phillips does the 3-4 different than Parcells. A lot of things are changing on D, not just moving RW closer to the line, which, according to Larry Lacewell, is where they drafted him to play in the first place...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mosley_matt&id=2827064

"That's not why we took him," said Larry Lacewell, the director of scouting at the time. "He was always going to be a down safety or basically a fancy linebacker."

LBs are also dropping weight because they will be expected to take on offensive linemen a lot less in his one-gap D.

I was on board with Parcells when he was hired, but after four years, I now know that he tried to get the players to conform to his rigid, unimaginative scheme, rather than scheme to his players' strengths, which is what every coach should do. IMO.


Last but not least, at the risk of repeating something that may have already been noted, Hamlin was scapegoatted in Seattle, much like many believe that RW scapegoatted those around him. Take it for what you will.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_y...lug=jc-seahawkscamp073107&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Thinking can get in the way. Such as last season with cornerback Marcus Trufant, who was the victim of big plays at bad times like the first game against Chicago on national television.
Holmgren and assistant head coach Jim Mora believe Trufant's problems started with players around him, such as former free safety Ken Hamlin, not being where Trufant expected. When that started to happen, Trufant became indecisive.
"When I look at it, I think Tru was just tentative at times, not sure all the time what was going to happen behind him," Mora said.
That, combined with Trufant's unassuming attitude, made for a bad mix.
"Marcus always knows what to do. He's a bright guy and takes care of his business," Holmgren said. "But if you lose a little bit of that confidence, just a little bit, it can snowball on you.
"He was a victim a little of making up for what others didn't do … it was like he was trying to play a position and a half instead of just his position."

 

[TEK2000]

Great points all, but I don't really like to use those metrics, especially if they are Joyners, because players like Ed Reed and Sean Taylor get penalized for blown coverages of Samari Rolle and whoever the Commanders have playing CB. They get penalized for the players coming into their zone and having blown the coverage although it was obviously somebody elses bad coverage job on the play. I personally like to watch the players themselves instead of trusting metrics.

I have seen Ed Reed numerous times and I know for a fact he can cover when he wants; its just that he is so overzealous and hungry for the big play he bites on a good play action and tries to put himself in play for an int instead of a defensed pass. (he is actually on thin ice now; if he doesn't play within Rex Ryans scheme this year they are threatening to bench him.) Same with Roy Williams to a point; I think he can cover WR's much better than he can cover tight ends... I don't think he will ever get better at that.

Don't think I am saying Ken Hamlin is so much better than Roy. But Hamlin was a leader back there in Seattle, putting people into position and such. Roy is a great player but he is not that type of player or leader however you put it.

I watch alot of football... I am not going to post a idea de jour just because somebody else posted as such. And I am not really bashing Roy just becuase I have a viewpoint that is not 1000 percent Cowboy.

By the way, teams are going to move the TE around and have roy forced to cover the TE on third downs when he moves to LB to create a mismatch. I would be shocked if a team doesn't try that on us by week 4. Just a thought.

I watch a lot of football too. Don't come at me with that BS like I'm spouting out "metrics" and haven't watched any games. (that's the reduntant point that resurfaces anytime stats are put up)
I wasn't making the point that Reed or anyone else is bad in coverage... my point was that Roy is not AS BAD as you and others like to claim.
I provided stats to support my claim and you provided, well, nothing.

How can a player cover WR's much better than he can cover TE's?

I certainly hope Ken Hamlin is better than Roy in coverage... that's what we need him to do. Doesn't bother me at all that Roy isn't the playcaller of the defense... some guys just aren't suited for that and Roy happens to be that type. Brian Dawkins might be the only Safety I can think of that is the definite, clearcut leader of their defense.

Of course teams will do that... but our defense won't be sitting there in almost the same formation on every single play accepting whatever the offense forced us to do like we were last season.

Again, you're acting like Roy is incapable of covering anyone at all... that's simply untrue.

You could have just called me a homer instead of thinking up some little fancy sentence.

 

[Howley54]

Thanks for the welcomes, guys

 

[Future]

Roy's INT totals are misleading....Most, if not all have been on very poorly thrown balls.

 

[cowboyeric8]

See, this is part of the problem. You can criticize the guy and not hate him. I don't hate him, I just thought he should be capable of more.

Sean Jones had as many interceptions, more sacks and more tackles than Roy last year.....does that make him a better player? Pointing out interceptions is just part of the equation.

Teams frequently targeted the deep middle of the field to challenge James and Roy last year. The Cowboys finished 24th in pass defense last year. Only three teams had more touchdowns scored on them through the air.

He isn't perfect (and no one should expect him to be), but when he spends the offseason comparing himself to Jesus, ballooning up to 247 and telling anyone who asks about his coverage issues that they don't what they are talking about, it is kind of annoying. Step up, be a leader and work on your shortcomings.

Everyone wants to talk about how much more effective he is going to be closer to the line this year, but if you bring up the fact that he'll likely be asked to cover TEs and backs on a more regular basis and that he has struggled with that in the past, you get called a mouth breather. Where is the intelligent argument there?

I wasn't pointing fingers at you, just some who don't read outside the lines. I pretty much agree with everything you've said. It might just be me, but I think his playmaking ability out weighs his flaws.