RUMOR: Ronde Barber for Greg Ellis

[Alexander]

You make a great deal of sense.

However this defense without Ellis suddenly becomes a very poor pass rushing defense and one that that could keep this team from advancing very far in 2006.

So the difference between our rush being good and very poor is Greg Ellis?

 

[ghst187]

How are we supposed to get into the top 10 to get one of those STUDS? Any draft picks we would get from a Ellis trade wouldn't come close to what we need. .

i thought it that was pretty obvious which is why I didn't say, OBVIOUSLY trading Ellis wouldn't get us into the top 10 HOWEVER, adding a draft pick or two from Ellis and packaging those that we already have might get us into the top 10. Also, no teams really thinks that it will drafting in the top 10 or top 5 at this point so they won't consider next year's draft pick top 10 and will sell it a lot cheaper than they will if you wait until after the season. I remember Buffalo giving us their 1st and if McGahee wouldn't have starting running and Bledsoe gone on a tear the last 6 games, that pick would've been a top 10.
anyway...
as far as moving Henry to FS....would've been a good idea BEFORE this offseason...but now we have Keith Davis, Willie Pile, Marcus Coleman, Reeves (who apparently has been toying with some FS also I think), Berault, and Pat Watkins. We may or may not have THE GUY back at FS but we have 5-6 guys playing FS WITHOUT moving Henry back there.
Plus, Henry was on probably on pace for 7 or 8 INTs last year before the injury at CB PLUS he's making bigtime CB money so why again would it be so great to move Henry to FS?

 

[2much2soon]

Plus, Henry was on probably on pace for 7 or 8 INTs last year before the injury at CB PLUS he's making bigtime CB money so why again would it be so great to move Henry to FS?

Because, right now, Henry would be a better FS than any of the 5-6 potential candidates who range from unknown to unproven to over the hill.
I hate the argument that Henry makes too much money to play FS. So what?

 

[Alexander]

I hate the argument that Henry makes too much money to play FS. So what?

Greg Ellis makes too much money to be a backup.

 

[ZeroClub]

However this defense without Ellis suddenly becomes a very poor pass rushing defense and one that that could keep this team from advancing very far in 2006.

Yeah, but at some point you have to pick your poison.

Keep Ellis and you have:

a disgruntled player with pass rushing ability AND you gamble that you'll get great FS play from Keith "Killer" Davis, Coleman, the rookie Watkins, and/or Pile.

Trade Ellis, get Barber, move Henry to FS, and you have:

significantly strengthened your defensive backfield AND you gamble that some combination of Ware, Carpenter, Burnett, the other LBs, Spears, Canty, and Hatcher can pick up the slack that Ellis leaves. And, who knows, with a dominant secondary, maybe you decide to blitz the DBs a little more often.

So you gotta pick one.

Either gamble that the young LBs and DEs can compensate for the loss of Ellis -or- gamble the combination of Davis, Pile, Watkins, and Coleman will yield a great FS play this year.

I've got more confidence in the LBs and DEs.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

as far as moving Henry to FS....would've been a good idea BEFORE this offseason...but now we have Keith Davis, Willie Pile, Marcus Coleman, Reeves (who apparently has been toying with some FS also I think), Berault, and Pat Watkins. We may or may not have THE GUY back at FS but we have 5-6 guys playing FS WITHOUT moving Henry back there.
Plus, Henry was on probably on pace for 7 or 8 INTs last year before the injury at CB PLUS he's making bigtime CB money so why again would it be so great to move Henry to FS?

you make a good point BUT.. what makes it so great is this:

Newman - Newman : draw
Barber - Henry : slight upgrade
Henry - Davis/Coleman : big upgrade
Roy with Henry at FS - Roy with Davis/Coleman at FS : big upgrade

this makes our already very good secondary a lot better.. the best in the league, no doubt.. maybe the best (gasp!!) secondary in Cowboys history..

as far as the roster goes, I would think that the CBs would be Newman, Barber, Glenn, Reeves, and Coleman.. our safeties would be Roy, Henry, Watkins, Davis, and Beriault.. Henry and Coleman can both play either position and gives us more options in case of injury.. Parcells loves diversity in players..

 

[Alexander]

Yeah, but at some point you have to pick your poison.

Keep Ellis and you have:

a disgruntled player with pass rushing ability AND you gamble that you'll get great FS play from Keith "Killer" Davis, Coleman, the rookie Watkins, and/or Pile.

Trade Ellis, get Barber, move Henry to FS, and you have:

significantly strengthened your defensive backfield AND you gamble that some combination of Ware, Carpenter, Burnett, the other LBs, Spears, Canty, and Hatcher can pick up the slack that Ellis leaves. And, who knows, with a dominant secondary, maybe you decide to blitz the DBs a little more often.

So you gotta pick one.

Either gamble that the young LBs and DEs can compensate for the loss of Ellis -or- gamble the combination of Davis, Pile, Watkins, and Coleman will yield a great FS play this year.

I've got more confidence in the LBs and DEs.

We had a somewhat happier Greg Ellis starting last year and we weren't killing anyone with Keith Davis at FS.

If Ellis is our second best rusher and we cannot replace his lost output between Carpenter, Ayodele and Burnett, we are in deep trouble and have wasted some draft choices and free agent money the last two years.

 

[ghst187]

Because, right now, Henry would be a better FS than any of the 5-6 potential candidates who range from unknown to unproven to over the hill.
I hate the argument that Henry makes too much money to play FS. So what?

that's true but he's definitely our 2nd best CB and will post more INTs than TNew at CB. He's also big enough to man up with the 6'2 and up WRs that are becoming predominant. Putting him back at FS is a big waste even if we add Barber. And the secondary will actually get worse if we give up Ellis because the passrush will be worse and passrush has more to do with facilitating good coverage than good DBs do. Ellis + Ware posting 20 sacks > a Barber, Williams, Henry, and Newman secondary.
Before I saw him play CB last season (and before the groin injury) I thought Henry would be a great FS but after his performance last year, he needs to play CB. He's pretty good there, esp considering that he and Glenn are the only CBs that QBs will throw at. Tnew's guy is as good as shut down.
Ellis means a lot more to us than Barber would.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

So the difference between our rush being good and very poor is Greg Ellis?

I don't think I ever used the word "good" in describing our pass rush.

 

[arglebargle]

Isn't Barber a cover 2 zone specialist corner? I think he does well because he is a good fit for his scheme. Not sure he would do so well in ours....

 

[MichaelWinicki]

We had a somewhat happier Greg Ellis starting last year and we weren't killing anyone with Keith Davis at FS.

If Ellis is our second best rusher and we cannot replace his lost output between Carpenter, Ayodele and Burnett, we are in deep trouble and have wasted some draft choices and free agent money the last two years.

We are in deep trouble.

None of those guys are the equivalent of Ellis as pass rusher. And none were drafted as pass rushing specialists like Ellis was way back then. Hey-- 8 sacks a season isn't gangbusters but it's still a respectable total.

And you've already lost the few sacks and pressure that Glover was able to generate.

 

[burmafrd]

We will probably get the same equivalent if not more sacks from our young guys instead of relying on one guy; INSIDE, Ratlief, Johnson, Stanley, whoever will between them get at least as many as Glover did; OUTSIDE, in the nickel Ellis is good, but that is all. Hatcher and Canty and company will do fine; its the LB's in the 3-4 that will get most of the sacks anyway. I frankly do not think we will lose that much if Ellis goes.

 

[Alexander]

We are in deep trouble.

None of those guys are the equivalent of Ellis as pass rusher. And none were drafted as pass rushing specialists like Ellis was way back then. Hey-- 8 sacks a season isn't gangbusters but it's still a respectable total.

And you've already lost the few sacks and pressure that Glover was able to generate.

I think you are looking at the idea that our pass rush has to come from a lineman in the nickel. If that's the only other way we can get pressure, then we are in deep trouble as you say.

If we get more exotic with our defensive packages, it is possible to generate a pass rush with the linebackers like the Steelers and Patriots have done for years. Ayodele is a former defensive end. We have Carpenter. That's two potential rushers we didn't have last season with Fujita and Shanle playing those spots the majority of the time.

And you also appear to believe that we are playing Kenyon Coleman and some nobody at end instead of two budding players like Spears and Canty. Who is to say they cannot chip in more than last year.

If things stay as they were last season, minus Glover and nobody improves and we get nothing from free agency and the draft, then I can see your gloom. But I have a difficult time seeing a scenario where we don't have options. If Coach Parcells is banking on Ellis being one of his "pressure players" all along even after seeing his woe is me routine he has been doing since the final gun in the Rams game, then he hasn't thought it through. I think he has and has plans. Certainly we are better with a motivated Ellis doing the types of things Coach Parcells had in store for him. But an unhappy Ellis giving less than his full effort isn't keeping things static. That in of itself is a downgrade.

I am not completely convinced about any of the young talent, but keeping a disgruntled Ellis around simply as insurance doesn't make me feel better either.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

let me repeat:

what we lose in Greg Ellis's pass rushing ability, we gain in Roy's pass rushing ability.. having a true ball hawking FS frees Roy (who I consider our 2nd best pass rusher behind Ware) to blitz a lot more often.. heck, Roy had 2.5 sacks in the first 2 games last year.. then we get beat a couple of times long and Zimmer gets scared and starts playing Roy back and limits his time in the box, afraid of the deep ball, and he doesnt get another sack the rest of the season.. that doesnt happen with Newman, Barber, and Henry ALL back there..

 

[whcarm]

We are playing the 3-4 now. It is stupid for us to rely on a DE to be our second best pass rusher.

Ellis is going to be a part time player. He is making starter's money.

We have a lot of new LBs. I think Carpenter will get some sacks for us this year and in the future.

Spears and Canty were both rookies last year. With a year under their belt, I would imagine they will be even better than they were last year.

Keeping Ellis and moving him to a part time LB is a risk. Additionally, if you do that then you are going to have to take Ware or Carpenter off the field.

The only good thing about keeping Ellis is that if Ware got injured he would provide insurance for us. But we have several players that would hurt us badly if they were injured and we don't have highly paid backups behind all of them.

I like Ellis a lot. I only have jerseys from two active Cowboys, Ellis and Witten. But I think it is time for him to move on.

If we can get good trade value then we should do it. If not, then force him to play here, we can't give into his contractual demands.

Getting Barber would be good for the team. It would allow Henry to move to safety and Watkins to learn behind him.

It would allow Barber, Newman, Glenn, Coleman and Reeves to work at CB.

We would be set in the secondary.

It would possibly hurt our pass rush. However, there is no guarnatee that Ellis as a part time LB would help our pass rush. I think it is just as likely that having Carpenter playing LB full time would help our pass rush more.

 

[yesfan]

I don't think I ever used the word "good" in describing our pass rush.

I took a look at your post,then saw Groucho,looked at the
post again,this time with Groucho's voice,and lost it.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

We will probably get the same equivalent if not more sacks from our young guys instead of relying on one guy; INSIDE, Ratlief, Johnson, Stanley, whoever will between them get at least as many as Glover did; OUTSIDE, in the nickel Ellis is good, but that is all. Hatcher and Canty and company will do fine; its the LB's in the 3-4 that will get most of the sacks anyway. I frankly do not think we will lose that much if Ellis goes.

#1 Johnson and Stanley do not have any sort of "pass-rushing pedigree". There is no way in 2006 they'll generate the same pass rush as Glover. Ratliff is a second year guy... I don't expect a lot out of him.

#2 Hatcher COULD be a good pass rusher. But not necessarily his rookie season.

#3 Canty and Spears have never been considered good pass rushers-- I doubt you'll see them become pass-rushers-extraordinare.

I have no questions about Ware. I think the guy can get a dozen sacks this year. After that it's pretty much barren. If both Ellis and Glover are removed from the equation you'll be losing 11 sacks and you might make up 5.

 

[ZeroClub]

To those frightenend and/or depressed at the thought of losing Ellis:

Close your eyes and imagine him in pass protection covering an RB or TE.


There, that helps, doesn't it?

 

[burmafrd]

I think Hatcher will suprise people this year; and Canty will get some scalps as well; Stanley too. Thats what I mean about it being spread out; if each of them get 2-3 then you don't miss either Ellis or Glover.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

If we get more exotic with our defensive packages, it is possible to generate a pass rush with the linebackers like the Steelers and Patriots have done for years. Ayodele is a former defensive end. We have Carpenter. That's two potential rushers we didn't have last season with Fujita and Shanle playing those spots the majority of the time.

The thing that scares me is that Parcells has never used an "exotic" 3-4. It's about as "vanilla" a 3-4 as you could get and I don't think he's going to change-- as much as I would like to see it myself.