Seattle's Rushmen

[Nightman]

The only place where it makes sense to get a catalytic player is in the draft. Paying for them outright... just hardly ever works out, at least not at full market price.

Let's bring in some value on the defense across the board, and keep the price of our offense lower by drafting a running back rather than signing Murray. We can slowly but surely bring talent into the defense through the draft to replace players piece by piece, but with the age of Romo we can't afford to slowly build this defense through the draft.

Dallas hopefully won't have the top draft picks(top10) that it usually takes to get a stud. They have to use Free Agency to fill some holes. Guys like Suh and Hardy rarely reach FA, think Reggie White. If you have a young and homegrown team like Dallas does you can afford one or two big FA deals.

 

[Fletch]

Odd thing is back then, the saying around here was we were paying "market value".

Yeah, and I'll admit I was one of them that was saying that. Funny how lack of production can change one's opinion. I know our secondary wasn't getting any help up front, but Carr was struggling on a consistent basis.

 

[Idgit]

Get SEAN to give me their secondary and I'm in on going cheaper elsewhere.

 

[Galian Beast]

Agreed.

For that $15 mil that goes to Suh, the Cowboys could have 3 good players that will greatly help depth across the board.

I think people are in love with the idea of having that catalytic player who turns the defense around. I don't think that's realistic.

I think you have to have a defense that from the ground up lacks weaknesses. I think we're in position to create that, especially if we can re-sign McClain. Having McClain, Lee, and Durant... with Hitchens as the 4th guy who can come in and replace anyone who gets hurt.... That is the sign of one of the best linebacker corps in the NFL.

We can make major upgrades to both the line and the secondary with value signings.

A couple upgrades on both ends and this defense becomes something else entirely. Something that can't simply be easily game planned.

 

[Nightman]

Yeah, and I'll admit I was one of them that was saying that. Funny how lack of production can change one's opinion. I know our secondary wasn't getting any help up front, but Carr was struggling on a consistent basis.

You can't disregard FA because you made mistakes in the past. Just like with Draft picks, you have to do a better job of picking the right players.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

When it comes to these cornerstone players and assuming they aren't entirely frontloaded, it means that they're going to be around for a while. It isn't just guaranteed money, it can also be signing bonus. The ability to cut a player isn't the only thing that matters when you look at their contract, especially when you are relying on that player to be a catalyst on your team.

Of course it is. Most front office types tell you that if you get 3 years out of a veteran FA contract than you did well. It's way the league works.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Agreed.

For that $15 mil that goes to Suh, the Cowboys could have 3 good players that will greatly help depth across the board.

How many players are you turning over on Defense? You have 11 starters. You expect your top 3 draft picks to net you 3 starters. If we go heavy on defense and add players through free agency exactly how many new faces are you expecting?

We could sign a Suh, look for a Mincey type at a few other spots...resign our guys like Dez, Beas, Parnell, Carter and Mcclain...go get two defenders early and look completely different.

If you want a defense that performs like our offense...look at the type of commitment in draft and dollars we've made on that side of the ball.

 

[Galian Beast]

Dallas hopefully won't have the top draft picks(top10) that it usually takes to get a stud. They have to use Free Agency to fill some holes. Guys like Suh and Hardy rarely reach FA, think Reggie White. If you have a young and homegrown team like Dallas does you can afford one or two big FA deals.

We need more than one or two big free agents.

And I'm not even saying don't get Hardy. If they look into things and the price is right, absolutely get Hardy.

Hardy starting at right end with Mincey at left end, and Lawrence backing up Hardy sounds a lot like New York to me.

The big thing about Hardy is that he is only 26. You could sign him for 5 or 6 years with it largely being backloaded to the post Romo era. He could be Marinelli's Peppers or Simeon Rice.

On passing downs maybe you put both Lawrence and Hardy out there.

Imagine, Hardy, Lawrence, Crawford, and Melton....

I think that is where you can start taking some shortcuts with the secondary, but still not many.

 

[ElGatoGrande]

That's a valid point.

But remember the offensive line took 3 offseasons to rebuild. I think this is the 2nd offseason for this defensive line.

Seems like it has been four since the Tyron pick, but either way it took 3 first picks that were hits to pull it off. If Dallas can bat a thousand with their DL picks then maybe they can build it up before Romo is gone,,,, or not!

 

[Galian Beast]

How many players are you turning over on Defense? You have 11 starters. You expect your top 3 draft picks to net you 3 starters. If we go heavy on defense and add players through free agency exactly how many new faces are you expecting?

We could sign a Suh, look for a Mincey type at a few other spots...resign our guys like Dez, Beas, Parnell, Carter and Mcclain...go get two defenders early and look completely different.

If you want a defense that performs like our offense...look at the type of commitment in draft and dollars we've made on that side of the ball.

You aren't going to get a ton of starters out of the draft. That's why you need to spread the money around more in free agency. Exactly why you don't go after a Suh type player.

You can get 3-4 defensive starters for the same price as Suh...

 

[Galian Beast]

Seems like it has been four since the Tyron pick, but either way it took 3 first picks that were hits to pull it off. If Dallas can bat a thousand with their DL picks then maybe they can build it up before Romo is gone,,,, or not!

That's the problem exactly.

Let's argue and say they hit on Crawford, though I still think the jury is out as I'm not ready to anoint him yet.

Let's assume that they hit on Lawrence too. How long did it take for Crawford to develop? How long will it take Lawrence? How long will it take any rookies drafted this year?

When you're drafting in the late part of rounds, you aren't drafting to get starters. This is our new reality.

You're drafting players to develop them, which takes time Romo doesn't have.

Fill the roster with defensive free agents. And keep the price down by drafting players we can develop.

 

[Nightman]

You aren't going to get a ton of starters out of the draft. That's why you need to spread the money around more in free agency. Exactly why you don't go after a Suh type player.

You can get 3-4 defensive starters for the same price as Suh...

What he is saying is we don't have as many holes as it seems

If you say Crawford. Mincey/DLaw, Lee, Hitchens. RoMc/Carter, OScan, Claiborne, Church, Wilcox are starters that leaves DE, 1T(Brent) and nickel CB(Carr).

If you draft a DE, CB, LB/DT you don't have much need for 3-4 mid level FAs.

 

[Galian Beast]

What he is saying is we don't have as many holes as it seems

If you say Crawford. Mincey/DLaw, Lee, Hitchens. RoMc/Carter, OScan, Claiborne, Church, Wilcox are starters that leaves DE, 1T(Brent) and nickel CB(Carr).

If you draft a DE, CB, LB/DT you don't have much need for 3-4 mid level FAs.

Ideally, I would like to go into the draft without having any defensive positions that don't already have starters.

I think you cut Carr, and thus need to replace him with a cornerback. I think Cromartie is a nice choice if he wants to come here. Claiborne is not a starter, or at least shouldn't be. I think Wilcox would be fine at SS, but he shouldn't be playing FS. We should get Hill there. I think you need a defensive end and defensive tackle as well as re-signing our own linebackers. I don't think you can logistically sign all those players if you get Suh.

 

[Nightman]

Ideally, I would like to go into the draft without having any defensive positions that don't already have starters.

I think you cut Carr, and thus need to replace him with a cornerback. I think Cromartie is a nice choice if he wants to come here. Claiborne is not a starter, or at least shouldn't be. I think Wilcox would be fine at SS, but he shouldn't be playing FS. We should get Hill there. I think you need a defensive end and defensive tackle as well as re-signing our own linebackers. I don't think you can logistically sign all those players if you get Suh.

I know I'm in the minority, but I would rather pay Suh who is 5x upgrade over Hayden/Brent and keep Carr(at a 50% cut) and draft a DE. Those guys aren't impact upgrades IMO. I would sign Spencer to a cheap deal and roll with:

Draft1/Spencer-Crawford-Suh-Mincey/DLaw
Hitchens-RoMc-Lee
Carr-Church-Wilcox-OScan

res- Gardner, DraftDT, Brent, Bishop, Durant, Wilber, Mo, Moore, Heath, Patmon

 

[Toruk_Makto]

You aren't going to get a ton of starters out of the draft. That's why you need to spread the money around more in free agency. Exactly why you don't go after a Suh type player.

You can get 3-4 defensive starters for the same price as Suh...

I didn't say a ton. But generally you're expecting your first 3 picks to be significant contributors/starters. And you may get 3-4 starters but you're not getting an impact player like Suh....who makes every other starter on your team better. Mincey had a great year. Who exactly did he make better on our defense?

Since you like looking at the Super bowl participants....when I look at their defenses they all had expensive stars on defense whether it was Revis or Sherman or Thomas etc.

 

[Galian Beast]

I know I'm in the minority, but I would rather pay Suh who is 5x upgrade over Hayden/Brent and keep Carr(at a 50% cut) and draft a DE. Those guys aren't impact upgrades IMO. I would sign Spencer to a cheap deal and roll with:

Draft1/Spencer-Crawford-Suh-Mincey/DLaw
Hitchens-RoMc-Lee
Carr-Church-Wilcox-OScan

res- Gardner, DraftDT, Brent, Bishop, Durant, Wilber, Mo, Moore, Heath, Patmon

I think that is a recipe for disaster.

You're putting your entire defensive budget into a guy who may or may not get himself suspended, and what happens when/if he gets injured?

Carr really doesn't fit this scheme. Having him take a pay cut doesn't really change that.

Keeping Spencer doesn't really make sense depending on his role next year.

And again, who are you going to draft at defensive end?

 

[Galian Beast]

I didn't say a ton. But generally you're expecting your first 3 picks to be significant contributors/starters. And you may get 3-4 starters but you're not getting an impact player like Suh....who makes every other starter on your team better. Mincey had a great year. Who exactly did he make better on our defense?

Since you like looking at the Super bowl participants....when I look at their defenses they all had expensive stars on defense whether it was Revis or Sherman or Thomas etc.

I think you can start a rookie running back from the first round within a rotation with Williams and maybe Randle...

I think you can start a rookie offensive tackle who has 3-4 years starting in college at right tackle if you can find one in the second or third round. You may also sign a guy to a one year deal there.

That's one, maybe two starters.

None of the players you mentioned get the type of money Suh will want.

 

[Nightman]

I think that is a recipe for disaster.

You're putting your entire defensive budget into a guy who may or may not get himself suspended, and what happens when/if he gets injured?

Carr really doesn't fit this scheme. Having him take a pay cut doesn't really change that.

Keeping Spencer doesn't really make sense depending on his role next year.

And again, who are you going to draft at defensive end?

How would it be a 'disaster'???

It would already be better than this year with Lee, and DLaw back. Carr has been OK and Cromarite is no upgrade. Moore, and Mo are solid depth.

Spencer, Gardner and a draft DE would hold down SDE, which one is above my pay grade, but there is someone in the draft that can step in at SDE.

And anyone can get hurt, so that is moot. Suh had his suspension clock reset after going 36 months without an incident. Since he got away from Schwartz it seemed his behavior improved. I don't have to sell Suh. He is as good as it gets and you have to pay for quality.

The thing about Suh is that everyone wants him. The chance of Dallas actually signing him is probably less than 10%, but it should be Plan A.

 

[Galian Beast]

How would it be a 'disaster'???

It would already be better than this year with Lee, and DLaw back. Carr has been OK and Cromarite is no upgrade. Moore, and Mo are solid depth.

Spencer, Gardner and a draft DE would hold down SDE, which one is above my pay grade, but there is someone in the draft that can step in at SDE.

And anyone can get hurt, so that is moot. Suh had his suspension clock reset after going 36 months without an incident. Since he got away from Schwartz it seemed his behavior improved. I don't have to sell Suh. He is as good as it gets and you have to pay for quality.

The thing about Suh is that everyone wants him. The chance of Dallas actually signing him is probably less than 10%, but it should be Plan A.

I don't think you realize how much better this defense needs to be than last year. There were a lot of smoke and mirrors this year, and some lucky bounces, but this defense was still terrible.

Anyone can get hurt, and when you cost the same as 3 stud players, the risk goes up.

 

[Nightman]

I don't think you realize how much better this defense needs to be than last year. There were a lot of smoke and mirrors this year, and some lucky bounces, but this defense was still terrible.

Anyone can get hurt, and when you cost the same as 3 stud players, the risk goes up.

I just don't value those mid level guys as much

Suh makes everyone on the DL better, Hayden is not in his universe.
DLaw is like a free draft pick with experience
Lee was dominating before he got hurt
Carr came on this year and Cromartie is a minimal upgrade if any, same with any FS FA
Marinelli teaches turnovers, so they are not as random as it seems