Sick of the entire QB scenerio in Dallas

[junk]

I've known that that is how you feel, but doesn't dismiss the fact that I just decided not to ridiculously criticize him and say that HE was the reason why we lost and crap like that. You say it is a safe place to take shots. I say it was the only place where EVERYBODY should be with a young QB. You act like they should all be seasoned veterans.....yeah, that's a really good way to look at it.

I have taken the liberty of finding a jets board for you.

http://forums.theganggreen.com/

Feel free to go there, sit on your fence and sing the praises of the great Quincy Carter.

 

[Jimz31]

Im tired of Carter fans claiming to be unbiased. Carter was horrible last season. Why people will defend him no matter how he plays is beyond me.

I'm tired of people not "getting it".

 

[blindzebra]

I've known that that is how you feel, but doesn't dismiss the fact that I just decided not to ridiculously criticize him and say that HE was the reason why we lost and crap like that. You say it is a safe place to take shots. I say it was the only place where EVERYBODY should be with a young QB. You act like they should all be seasoned veterans.....yeah, that's a really good way to look at it.

I'm not going to rehash the QB wars, but it's not the "haters" that have refused to move on. Carter is gone and it's some of his more ridiculous supporters and a certain "fence sitter" that can't seem to not keeping going back to Carter.

 

[Jimz31]

I have taken the liberty of finding a jets board for you.

http://forums.theganggreen.com/

Feel free to go there, sit on your fence and sing the praises of the great Quincy Carter.

Is that all you got? Prove me wrong. ACQ wanted the stats, I gave them.

Judge the same way as you always have, or can't you do that?

Yep, people just don't like being shown that they aren't like what they presume to be.

 

[blindzebra]

Yep, people just don't like being shown that they aren't like what they presume to be.

Yet another pot meet kettle post.

 

[Jimz31]

I'm not going to rehash the QB wars, but it's not the "haters" that have refused to move on. Carter is gone and it's some of his more ridiculous supporters and a certain "fence sitter" that can't seem to not keeping going back to Carter.

You just don't get it do you?! I said before what this is about. It is about Vinny and the pass that he is getting from those that were being quite vociferous about the QB situation last year. How hard is this for you to understand?

Take your eyes off of QC if you can for just ONE moment.

NO young QB that was dissed for doing the same things that a veteran does deserves it to the point that some people take it.


Answer this:

Why was the problem the QB last year, when now we still have the same problems that we had last year? Low scoring, low TD's, some INT's.

Answer that and keep in mind that these same people said they view QB's through the same prism.

 

[Jimz31]

Yet another pot meet kettle post.

Yeah, ok.

I'm on the fence about QC, Delhomme, Leftwich, Carr, Palmer, etc. ANY young QB.

Always have been and I won't bash ANY of these QB's to the point of ridiculousness.

I won't blame any of them individually for a loss.

You will. Not me.

Show me where there is a problem in this stance.

It's too bad you aren't an NFL coach......you'd be the best. Not even any of them will make up their minds about a QB until after their 3rd year, yet you can do it right away.....I'm impressed.

 

[junk]

Is that all you got? Prove me wrong. ACQ wanted the stats, I gave them.

Judge the same way as you always have, or can't you do that?

Yep, people just don't like being shown that they aren't like what they presume to be.

I fail to see the point in coming out and talking trash about a QB that is long gone. I really don't understand the whole rest of your argument. Do people like some players better than others? Sure. You obviously have a crush on Carter. Did everyone who criticized Carter have some nefarious hidden purpose in their criticism? Nope. Some of those same people are right here criticizing Vinny. The people who want Dallas to win and aren't hung up on one player.

I don't see the point in coming out and rubbing Vinny's shortcomings in everyone's face and trying to take a righteous stance on the whole thing. You like Carter and for some reason think that makes you better than everyone else. OK, whatever gets you through the day.

You have always been squarely in Carter's corner contrary to what you might say. I wasn't a big fan of Carter and I wasn't (am not) a big fan of Vinny.

Vinny has had 4 games. Carter had three years. I am willing to give Vinny a few more games. If he proves ineffective, I am all for a QB change.

I will say one thing, however, in Vinny's defense. He has shown an ability to move the team better than Carter. Stupid penalties and poor coaching decisions have done him in though. As LTN said, I hope it isn't a characteristic of Vinny that he puts up OK numbers but can't score points. Bottom line: Vinny hasn't played that great, but not that bad. Very average, but he gives the team the best chance to win now. Carter was a selfish drug abuser who is long gone. The only people that seem to care are the die hard Carter supporters.

 

[blindzebra]

You just don't get it do you?! I said before what this is about. It is about Vinny and the pass that he is getting from those that were being quite vociferous about the QB situation last year. How hard is this for you to understand?

Take your eyes off of QC if you can for just ONE moment.

NO young QB that was dissed for doing the same things that a veteran does deserves it to the point that some people take it.


Answer this:

Why was the problem the QB last year, when now we still have the same problems that we had last year? Low scoring, low TD's, some INT's.

Answer that and keep in mind that these same people said they view QB's through the same prism.

Several people have told you the difference, it just does not fit your argument.

Stop gap, care taker, bridge any of those ring a bell? You want to keep it going. You want to find the inconsistency. You need to support Carter even though he's not a Cowboy.

Move on and find a new fence to sit on.

 

[Jimz31]

I fail to see the point in coming out and talking trash about a QB that is long gone. I really don't understand the whole rest of your argument. Do people like some players better than others? Sure. You obviously have a crush on Carter. Did everyone who criticized Carter have some nefarious hidden purpose in their criticism? Nope. Some of those same people are right here criticizing Vinny. The people who want Dallas to win and aren't hung up on one player.

I don't see the point in coming out and rubbing Vinny's shortcomings in everyone's face and trying to take a righteous stance on the whole thing. You like Carter and for some reason think that makes you better than everyone else. OK, whatever gets you through the day.

You have always been squarely in Carter's corner contrary to what you might say. I wasn't a big fan of Carter and I wasn't (am not) a big fan of Vinny.

Vinny has had 4 games. Carter had three years. I am willing to give Vinny a few more games. If he proves ineffective, I am all for a QB change.

I will say one thing, however, in Vinny's defense. He has shown an ability to move the team better than Carter. Stupid penalties and poor coaching decisions have done him in though. As LTN said, I hope it isn't a characteristic of Vinny that he puts up OK numbers but can't score points. Bottom line: Vinny hasn't played that great, but not that bad. Very average, but he gives the team the best chance to win now. Carter was a selfish drug abuser who is long gone. The only people that seem to care are the die hard Carter supporters.

This whole thing started because I said that it was funny how some people were so boisterous about the QB situation last year and now they are so silent. That's it. They didn't like being called on it. That's all it was.

You view me as being squarely in QC's corner. The only way you can say that is to think that anybody that doesn't/didn't just come right out and bash him is automatically a supporter. This has been re-hashed over and over and I'm not going to go over it again.

You say Carter had 3 years....he had ONE full year and we got into the playoffs.

VT has had 17 years and has been pedestrian for all but ONE year.

OF COURSE VT, gives us the best chance to win now. Who else is behind him with ANY experience whatsoever.

You quoted LTN who referenced his good numbers.....QC still had better numbers if you want to talk about it that way, yet you probably bashed QC at the same point in the season. Where is your negativity now about VT?

It's all about people being ridiculously critical of QC last year and giving a VETERAN a pass this year. I don't care if people think it's about QC. They'll think what they want. It has to do with people being overly critical of one QB and giving a more established one a pass. It has ALWAYS bugged me.....even BEFORE QC was here. Yet, people assume that I came to this way of thinking last year or something.

 

[junk]

This whole thing started because I said that it was funny how some people were so boisterous about the QB situation last year and now they are so silent. That's it. They didn't like being called on it. That's all it was.

You view me as being squarely in QC's corner. The only way you can say that is to think that anybody that doesn't/didn't just come right out and bash him is automatically a supporter. This has been re-hashed over and over and I'm not going to go over it again.

You say Carter had 3 years....he had ONE full year and we got into the playoffs.

VT has had 17 years and has been pedestrian for all but ONE year.

OF COURSE VT, gives us the best chance to win now. Who else is behind him with ANY experience whatsoever.

You quoted LTN who referenced his good numbers.....QC still had better numbers if you want to talk about it that way, yet you probably bashed QC at the same point in the season. Where is your negativity now about VT?

It's all about people being ridiculously critical of QC last year and giving a VETERAN a pass this year. I don't care if people think it's about QC. They'll think what they want. It has to do with people being overly critical of one QB and giving a more established one a pass. It has ALWAYS bugged me.....even BEFORE QC was here. Yet, people assume that I came to this way of thinking last year or something.

Actually, I was starting to think QC was the answer early last year....until he collapsed and completely fell apart.

The only reason I think you are squarely in QC's corner is because I have never see you criticize him once. For as bad as I thought he was, I even made a point to give credit where credit was due. You never even seem to post on other topics.

I don't think many people are giving Vinny a pass. He has been soundly bashed all week.

 

[blindzebra]

Actually, I was starting to think QC was the answer early last year....until he collapsed and completely fell apart.

The only reason I think you are squarely in QC's corner is because I have never see you criticize him once. For as bad as I thought he was, I even made a point to give credit where credit was due. You never even seem to post on other topics.

I don't think many people are giving Vinny a pass. He has been soundly bashed all week.

He's a fence sitter that always falls off the fence on the pro-Carter side. He calls it ridiculous bashing, but never was critical of CowboyNIraq or MikeD17 who were making one ridiculous post after another.

 

[dbair1967]

This whole thing started because I said that it was funny how some people were so boisterous about the QB situation last year and now they are so silent. That's it. They didn't like being called on it. That's all it was.

You view me as being squarely in QC's corner. The only way you can say that is to think that anybody that doesn't/didn't just come right out and bash him is automatically a supporter. This has been re-hashed over and over and I'm not going to go over it again.

You say Carter had 3 years....he had ONE full year and we got into the playoffs.

VT has had 17 years and has been pedestrian for all but ONE year.

OF COURSE VT, gives us the best chance to win now. Who else is behind him with ANY experience whatsoever.

You quoted LTN who referenced his good numbers.....QC still had better numbers if you want to talk about it that way, yet you probably bashed QC at the same point in the season. Where is your negativity now about VT?

It's all about people being ridiculously critical of QC last year and giving a VETERAN a pass this year. I don't care if people think it's about QC. They'll think what they want. It has to do with people being overly critical of one QB and giving a more established one a pass. It has ALWAYS bugged me.....even BEFORE QC was here. Yet, people assume that I came to this way of thinking last year or something.

I'm certainly not giving him a pass, Parcells might be but even he eventually wouldnt...VT looked good in preseason and the first couple games, didnt look so good vs Giants...he has to play better but so do alot of other people, including the defense.

you can talk numbers all you want, but Carter proved he was a crap QB, period. It's why he isnt here anymore, Vinny was and still is a better passer and QB than Carter....we werent going to be better with him, so he (Carter) is gone. It was blatantly apparent the guy wasnt ever going to be even an average starter, so why keep him? I think BP and Jones looked at what he did last yr, saw how mediocre he was the first few days of camp this and combined with the drug thing decided there was no since in keeping him. Despite a number of teams with questionable QB situations Carter couldnt catch on anywhere with even a remote possibility of being a starter, suggesting everyone else sees what I just said, that he is a mediocre player

If you want numbers I'll be glad to go get a HORDE of numbers that prove what I just said. I've posted them before and will be happy to repeat them.

None of it matters though, as I said in another post its time to give it up with regards to Carter. He isnt here anymore and never will be, my guess is that unless he plays behind someone who gets injured he'll never see the field again in the NFL except in scrub mop up time or preseason. You may not like it, but its the truth.

David

 

[Chuck 54]

Stop gap, care taker, bridge

I prefer loser and disappointment because that's been his entire pro career, and you can see it for yourself at NFL.com.

Parcells may be a demigod of NFL football, but he's either lying to everyone (which is most likely) or he has lost his mind if he thinks Vinny is equal to anything but a bottom feeder in the NFL.

That was my opinion before we signed him, after we signed him, and I still fully expect him to get worse and worse all year...he'll have an ocassional good game, but he'll never even be ranked in the top 10 in the NFC despite our receivers, throwing the ball 40-50 times, and very little running game.

Henson and Romo need to be ready for the future because Vinny is just taking up snaps and space.

 

[Jimz31]

Actually, I was starting to think QC was the answer early last year....until he collapsed and completely fell apart.

The only reason I think you are squarely in QC's corner is because I have never see you criticize him once. For as bad as I thought he was, I even made a point to give credit where credit was due. You never even seem to post on other topics.

I don't think many people are giving Vinny a pass. He has been soundly bashed all week.

No I haven't bashed him to the extent that others have therefore I get labeled as a supporter....which I don't really care about anymore. In fact, I quit saying ANYTHING negative early on mainly due to everyone else doing "such a good job of it". But yes, I did say stuff very early on, but not to the extent of being ridiculous about it.

I've posted on plenty of other topics and infact stayed away from the QC topic AT ALL for close to a month straight. I figured it didn't make any difference any way. This allgot started again due to about 1 sentence earlier today.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And I'm fine with that logic, however, what I'm saying to some of these people is "Don't tell me that you look at all QB's through the same prism and then show through silence or excuses that you really don't."

Some people just don't like being called out on it.

Let's talk about being called out.

Here is what Carter actually did the first 4 games of 03.

Atlanta - Lost, without Vick.

15/32 268 yards 1 TD/1 Int
Less then 50% completion. 8.38 YPA against a team that went 5-11. 2-10 with Vick out and 3-1 with upon Vicks return. This team would ultimatly finish dead last in team defense in the NFL. Also dead last in pass defense.


Giants - Won in OT.

25/40 321 yards 0 TD/1 Int
62.5 % completion. 8.03 YPA against a pretty good team. However, this was a game we really should have lost. If the Giants don't make a bone head mistake, Carter's numbers look more like this, 9/23 1 TD/1 Int 39.1 % completion, 260 yards and 6.5 ypa. This team would end the year ranked 22 overall in team defensively. 26th in passing defense. Lots of teams QBs did well against them.

Jets - Won Without Pennington

11/23 165 yards 1 TD/1 Int
47.8 % completion. 7.17 ypa, BTW, Vinnie went 21/29 219 o TD/0 Int. The Jets were 0-4 at the time. They would eventually end up 6-10. This team would end the year ranked 21st overall. 11th overall in passing defense. A little better then the Giants but not much.

Cardinals - Won without Plummer.

20/31 277 yards 2 TDs/1 Int
64.5 % completion. 8.93 YPA. Probably the only good game of the 1st four IMO. Still in all, the Cardinals would go 4-12 for the season. This team would end the season 26th in overall defense in the NFL. 25th overall in passing defense. Lots of QBs had good games against them.

In contrast, here are Vinnie's:

Minnisota - Lost

29/50 355 yards 1 TD/0 Int.
58% completion. 7.1 YPA. Really and excellent game by Vinnie. Our defense simply couldn't hold. To many mistakes. 4 Games in, the Vikes are ranked 31st in defense overall and in pass defense. No surprise that we scored on these guys.

Cleveland - Won

23/35 322 yards 1 TD/3 Ints.
65.7 % completion. 9.2 YPA. This too was a good outing except for the 3rd quarter where Vinnie threw 3 ints. Take this quarter away and there is really 0 comparison at all. Still, we won the game. 4 games in, Cleveland is 22 in overall defense and 21st in passing defense. Not a good defense IMO.

Washington - Won

14/29 214 yards 1 TD/0 Ints.
48.3 % completion. 7.38 YPA. Not a great game for Vinnie here. Did enough to win but that's it. 4 games in, Washington is 3rd in over all defense and 6th in overall pass defense.

NY Giants - Lost

15/24 126 yards 1 TD/1 Int.
62.5 % completion. 8.4 YPA. Stats are not great here but really, they didn't have to be. We controlled this game from the outset. The running game worked. This is a loss, not because of Vinnie but because we made mistakes mentally. The out put is not great here but it also didn't kill us. Vinnie played well enough to win this game. Defensively, Giants are ranked 18th in overall defense and 11th in passing defense.


Based on these numbers, I would have to say that Vinnie has performed much better in a 4 game stretch then Carter last year. He has faced much better compatition, IMO, thus far and he has the 19th ranked defense supporting him, as opposed to the 1st overall, as did Carter. You also have to factor in penalties, which everybody knows are way up from last year.

These are the numbers and nothing I've said here is unfactual. Vinnie is not an all pro but he is better then Carter ever was. I think I'll hold up on that bus ticket if you don't mind. Honestly, I don't see where it's needed at this point.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm tired of people not "getting it".

We understand Jim. It's just that we've accepted it. Your never going to get it because you don't want to.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Oh yeah, "fair" you asked for statistics up to this point....I give them and then you change the "rules" after you've been given them and say that I'M not being fair?

No Jim, I asked you to tell the whole story, not just the part you like. Nobody changed anything. No matter. I've taken the liberty of giving all the numbers pertinant to this comparision you soo love to wrap yourself in in another post.

See, the problem here Jim is that your so full of Bull Shyt, on this subject, that I can smell it on your breath from here. Your wrong and you know it but you'll never admit it. It's cool. It's your thing but just keep in mind, every poster on this board is not stupid. They saw for themselves. They too know your BS is just that, for the most part but it's cool. You do what you gotta do to keep yourself propped up on that little fence you claim to live on.

 

[Jimz31]

Let's talk about being called out.

Here is what Carter actually did the first 4 games of 03.

Atlanta - Lost, without Vick.

15/32 268 yards 1 TD/1 Int
Less then 50% completion. 8.38 YPA against a team that went 5-11. 2-10 with Vick out and 3-1 with upon Vicks return. This team would ultimatly finish dead last in team defense in the NFL. Also dead last in pass defense.


Giants - Won in OT.

25/40 321 yards 0 TD/1 Int
62.5 % completion. 8.03 YPA against a pretty good team. However, this was a game we really should have lost. If the Giants don't make a bone head mistake, Carter's numbers look more like this, 9/23 1 TD/1 Int 39.1 % completion, 260 yards and 6.5 ypa. This team would end the year ranked 22 overall in team defensively. 26th in passing defense. Lots of teams QBs did well against them.

Jets - Won Without Pennington

11/23 165 yards 1 TD/1 Int
47.8 % completion. 7.17 ypa, BTW, Vinnie went 21/29 219 o TD/0 Int. The Jets were 0-4 at the time. They would eventually end up 6-10. This team would end the year ranked 21st overall. 11th overall in passing defense. A little better then the Giants but not much.

Cardinals - Won without Plummer.

20/31 277 yards 2 TDs/1 Int
64.5 % completion. 8.93 YPA. Probably the only good game of the 1st four IMO. Still in all, the Cardinals would go 4-12 for the season. This team would end the season 26th in overall defense in the NFL. 25th overall in passing defense. Lots of QBs had good games against them.

In contrast, here are Vinnie's:

Minnisota - Lost

29/50 355 yards 1 TD/0 Int.
58% completion. 7.1 YPA. Really and excellent game by Vinnie. Our defense simply couldn't hold. To many mistakes. 4 Games in, the Vikes are ranked 31st in defense overall and in pass defense. No surprise that we scored on these guys.

Cleveland - Won

23/35 322 yards 1 TD/3 Ints.
65.7 % completion. 9.2 YPA. This too was a good outing except for the 3rd quarter where Vinnie threw 3 ints. Take this quarter away and there is really 0 comparison at all. Still, we won the game. 4 games in, Cleveland is 22 in overall defense and 21st in passing defense. Not a good defense IMO.

Washington - Won

14/29 214 yards 1 TD/0 Ints.
48.3 % completion. 7.38 YPA. Not a great game for Vinnie here. Did enough to win but that's it. 4 games in, Washington is 3rd in over all defense and 6th in overall pass defense.

NY Giants - Lost

15/24 126 yards 1 TD/1 Int.
62.5 % completion. 8.4 YPA. Stats are not great here but really, they didn't have to be. We controlled this game from the outset. The running game worked. This is a loss, not because of Vinnie but because we made mistakes mentally. The out put is not great here but it also didn't kill us. Vinnie played well enough to win this game. Defensively, Giants are ranked 18th in overall defense and 11th in passing defense.


Based on these numbers, I would have to say that Vinnie has performed much better in a 4 game stretch then Carter last year. He has faced much better compatition, IMO, thus far and he has the 19th ranked defense supporting him, as opposed to the 1st overall, as did Carter. You also have to factor in penalties, which everybody knows are way up from last year.

These are the numbers and nothing I've said here is unfactual. Vinnie is not an all pro but he is better then Carter ever was. I think I'll hold up on that bus ticket if you don't mind. Honestly, I don't see where it's needed at this point.

LOL. Keep it up with your excuse making. You made excuses for the losses for VT, yet made excuses such as "we should have lost" for QC's and you might as well had said that "this was actually a bad team that we played."

You asked for the stats....I gave them WITHOUT commentary.

You say that VT has faced better competition, yet you justify your position based things that can only be determined AFTER the season.

First you wanted stats.....I gave them to you, and now you have to explain them away. This is getting funnier and funnier. VT has more weapons. Why isn't he scoring? Oh, that's right penalties.

(You know that I agree with you that it isn't VT's fault as I believe that no QB wins or loses a game on his own. I'm just using the logic that some of you used last year.)

It gets funnier and funnier.

 

[Jimz31]

No Jim, I asked you to tell the whole story, not just the part you like. Nobody changed anything. No matter. I've taken the liberty of giving all the numbers pertinant to this comparision you soo love to wrap yourself in in another post.

See, the problem here Jim is that your so full of Bull Shyt, on this subject, that I can smell it on your breath from here. Your wrong and you know it but you'll never admit it. It's cool. It's your thing but just keep in mind, every poster on this board is not stupid. They saw for themselves. They too know your BS is just that, for the most part but it's cool. You do what you gotta do to keep yourself propped up on that little fence you claim to live on.

It's funny that when I use the exact same excuses that were used by "the other side" that I'M now full of it!

This is getting more and more ironic.