So Much For the Franchise QB Theory

[Maikeru-sama]

Funny you'd question people's interest in pro football given what you posted...

Kelly never won a superbowl. lost several.
Elway took a long while (last 2 years of a long career) to finally win
Roger lost 2 superbowls
Sims sat on the bench for his 2nd behind Jeff Hostetler
Farve is 1-1 in superbowls
Troy was on a great team and did nothing when Dallas faded after '95

Any more nuggest of wisdom you want to share?

Wooo...

Those are some very good Quarterbacks you mentioned...scratch that those are some GREAT quarterbacks you mentioned. You contradict yourself with that post.

Isnt that one of the main points.....getting your team to Super Bowl and if yo are lucky enough, winning them. None of those Quarterbacks should hold their head low for any of the accomplishments you mentioned.

I will take any of those accomplishments any day of the week.

- Mike G.

 

[gbrittain]

Wooo...

Those are some very good Quarterbacks you mentioned...scratch that those are some GREAT quarterbacks you mentioned. You contradict yourself with that post.

Isnt that one of the main points.....getting your team to Super Bowl and if yo are lucky enough, winning them. None of those Quarterbacks should hold their head low for any of the accomplishments you mentioned.

I will take any of those accomplishments any day of the week.

- Mike G.

I think chinch has confused franchise QB and HOF QB with flawless QB. No such thing as flawless.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Daddy, tell me another fairy tale about the way things used to be.

 

[kartr]

If Defense win championships why has B-More won only won championship and not championships?

Why did the 85 Bears only win one championship and not championships?

Why is Chicago out of the playoffs?

You want to contend year in and year out, you better get you a franchise QB. Of course, it takes more than just a QB, afterall football is a team game.

However, there is not a single player on the field more important than the QB.

The Bears this year have no qb at all. The '85 Bears and Baltimore had mediocre qb's. There is as big a difference between Dilfer and Grossman as is between Manning and Dilfer and maybe bigger. Heck, there's as big a difference between Hasselbeck and Dilfer as is between Brady and Hasselbeck. You don't have to have a franchise qb, whatever that is, to win it all because football is a team sport, it's not now or never has been about one guy. Every team that has won a super bowl has had a dominant defense, remember our Doomsdays'. How many superbowls did Marino,Fouts, Manning,etc win. How many superbowls have been won by Jim Plunkett, Joe Thiesman,Bob Griese,Jimmy McMahon,Phil Simms,Jeff Hostetler,Doug Williams,Mark Rypien,Kurt Warner,Trent Dilfer?

 

[kartr]

look at those 2 QBs you mention

Matt Hasselbeck-3rd round pick, no starting experience before being asked to be the man for Seattle
Jake Delhomme-undrafted, Saints practice squad, NFLE backup, then split-starter

still want to positively rule out Romo or Henson being the future at QB?

Yes, because Romo and Henson have not proved that they're as good as Hutch yet.:laugh2:

 

[kartr]

What I see left are four teams with QBs from different backgrounds. Hasselbeck's a 6th rounder, Delhomme is an UFA, Rothlisberger's a 1st rounder, and Plummer is a 2nd rounder who basically washed out at Arizona and resurrected his career at Denver.

So if you consider each one of these guys "franchise QBs", then being a top draft pick isn't necessarily a prerequisite after all , is it? :wink2:

Brady is also a 6th rounder, going back to my whatever a franchise qb is theme.

 

[InmanRoshi]

ARe you kidding?

They don't have to be SuperStars to be franchise QB's. Hasstlebeck, Delhomme, even Plummer, and certainly Roethlisberger are all franchise QBs...Plummer is the only guy one can even argue about. These guys are all be playing QB into the next decade for their teams.

Guys like Brunnell and Bledsoe are veteran QBs keeping the position warm until a franchise QB is found, if ever in our case.

I wish we had one of those young whippersnappers like Hasselbeck (30), Delhomme (30) and Plummer (31).

Those guys are going to play for another decade.

 

[InmanRoshi]

ARe you kidding?

They don't have to be SuperStars to be franchise QB's. Hasstlebeck, Delhomme, even Plummer, and certainly Roethlisberger are all franchise QBs...Plummer is the only guy one can even argue about. These guys are all be playing QB into the next decade for their teams.

Guys like Brunnell and Bledsoe are veteran QBs keeping the position warm until a franchise QB is found, if ever in our case.

I wish we had one of those young whippersnappers like Hasselbeck (30), Delhomme (31) and Plummer (31), instead of our ancient 33 year old Bledsoe. Unlike Bledsoe, those guys are going to play for another decade.

 

[TwoDeep3]

If you look at the sortable stats for quarterback on NFL.com, you will note that Big Ben has thrown a total of 268 attempts.

But he missed games, you say.

He played in 12 games. If you divide 268 by 12 it yields 22.33 per contest. Now multiply that out and you get a total of 357 passes attempted.

This still puts him in the bottom 8 in the league.

The Steelers use his arm with caution since they have such a successful running game.

He still has to complete the passes. But they require him to complete almost half of what the franchise quarterbacks seem to do during a season.

 

[kartr]

Also Delhomme isn't a bus driver.

They gave his stats tonight on the NFL network and he has the best playoff stats of any NFC QB in history. They were comparing his playoff stats to Bart Starr, Montana, etc.

Delhomme also has a receiver who is uncoverable. How can you give him credit for that. He posted over 200 yards receiving on the road against a solid defense. If Steve Smith is the Panthers' Jerry Rice, who is his John Taylor, if he is their Michael Irvin, who is his Alvin Harper.

 

[Clove]

I guess no one has mentioned that the 4 remaining coaches are great coaches and have all taken their teams to the dance, and a couple of them already have rings.

You need great coaching/great line on both sides, and a strong defense. I'll throw in a pretty good running attack too.

 

[gbrittain]

The Bears this year have no qb at all. The '85 Bears and Baltimore had mediocre qb's. There is as big a difference between Dilfer and Grossman as is between Manning and Dilfer and maybe bigger. Heck, there's as big a difference between Hasselbeck and Dilfer as is between Brady and Hasselbeck. You don't have to have a franchise qb, whatever that is, to win it all because football is a team sport, it's not now or never has been about one guy. Every team that has won a super bowl has had a dominant defense, remember our Doomsdays'. How many superbowls did Marino,Fouts, Manning,etc win. How many superbowls have been won by Jim Plunkett, Joe Thiesman,Bob Griese,Jimmy McMahon,Phil Simms,Jeff Hostetler,Doug Williams,Mark Rypien,Kurt Warner,Trent Dilfer?

I know it is not about one guy. It is much more than that. It is a TEAM game and failure to put a good team together results in...well nothing. Simply stated their is not a more important player on the field than a QB.

Again dont disagree with me, I am taking my cues from NFL GMs and history. How many of the last NFL drafts has a QB been taken #1 overall?

You may not be able to answer that question, but I can. If you think it is just coincidence...

Since 1980 12 QBs have gone #1 overall in the NFL draft.

12 QBs
4 RBs
4 DTs
2 DEs
2 WR
1 OT
1 LB

Now plese explain that to me. Mind you this is not Fantasy Football. These are real NFL GMs making these choices.

For those of you who want to say that is the way GMs used to do things in the past, but times have changed.

Seven of the last eight NFL #1 picks have been QBs.

If the QB is just another position on the field please tell me why GMs year after year choose a QB over any other position in the draft?

 

[DipChit]

Well just as with other positions like RB where guys like Payton and Sanders could put up huge numbers even without premiere talent around them, theres a few QB's that have done the same thing (if not pure numbers, reg season wins) although it rarely equated to SB victories.

Again with the Elway deal, here in Denver there was a faction that suggested they should trade him to make the team better overall when they kept getting shellacked in the early SB's. Obviously that team was no where near good enough to compete with the NFC powerhouses of the time.

Course most people screamed bloody murder. "How could you trade Elway?? We'll never win a SB without him!!!"

Not surprisingly the counterpoint was "Well 7 or 8 other teams have managed to figure out a way to do it without him".

As we know, the number got up to about 13 other teams before "he" finally won one.

 

[gbrittain]

I wish we had one of those young whippersnappers like Hasselbeck (30), Delhomme (30) and Plummer (31).

Those guys are going to play for another decade.

Hasselbeck has been with Seattle for 5 years. That puts him at 25 when he joined the team.

Delhomme has been with Carolina for 3 years. That puts him at 27 when he joined the team.

Plummer has been with Denver for 2 years. That puts him at 29 when he joined the team.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Well just as with other positions like RB where guys like Payton and Sanders could put up huge numbers even without premiere talent around them, theres a few QB's that have done the same thing (if not pure numbers, reg season wins) although it rarely equated to SB victories.

Again with the Elway deal, here in Denver there was a faction that suggested they should trade him to make the team better overall when they kept getting shellacked in the early SB's. Obviously that team was no where near good enough to compete with the NFC powerhouses of the time.

Course most people screamed bloody murder. "How could you trade Elway?? We'll never win a SB without him!!!"

Not surprisingly the counterpoint was "Well 7 or 8 other teams have managed to figure out a way to do it without him".

As we know, the number got up to about 13 other teams before "he" finally won one.

This is a very similar argument to the comebacks of both Elway and Staubach. They were both superb at taking a losing team and willing it to win.

Yet both were the starting quarterback who got the team in the hole to begin with.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

look at those 2 QBs you mention

Matt Hasselbeck-3rd round pick, no starting experience before being asked to be the man for Seattle
Jake Delhomme-undrafted, Saints practice squad, NFLE backup, then split-starter

still want to positively rule out Romo or Henson being the future at QB?

No, but I don't think this says that they will be the future either. For every Hasselbeck there are fifty that don't work out. For every Delhomme, there are a 1000.

 

[chinch]

Funny you'd question people's interest in pro football given what you posted...

Kelly never won a superbowl. lost several.
Elway took a long while (last 2 years of a long career) to finally win
Roger lost 2 superbowls
Sims sat on the bench for his 2nd behind Jeff Hostetler
Farve is 1-1 in superbowls
Troy was on a great team and did nothing when Dallas faded after '95

Any more nuggest of wisdom you want to share?

It is really funny to see you tear down Hall Of Fame QBs just to try to prove a point. Troy, Brett, Roger, John and Jim are all or will be HOF QBs.

You lose all credibility when you try to downplay what they accomplished.

Just because you happen to be a franchise QB does not mean that you are guaranteed 4, 5, 6, 7, or Superbowls while you are QBing your team. It only means for a good span of time that your team, if it is up to par, that you have a realistic competitive chance at a Superbowl.

Now look at those guys that you just put down to try to prove a point and tell me how many years their teams were top notch competitive?

Now look at the B-More Ravens. They have had a top 10 defense in yards and points allowed 6 of the last 7 years. We all know about the Superbowl win. Great accomplishment. The year after their Superbowl they won a wild card game and lost the Divisional Playoff game to Pittsburgh.

They lost a wildcard game in 2003 as well. That is it though for B-More. Great defense, but nothing in the QB department and the great effort their defense has put up has gone to waste.

I didn't downplay anything, except bursting the myth of "franchise QB" having any signficant bearing on winning superbowls (nevermind getting there).

To get a "franchise QB" you need to compromise your team in many other areas due to $$$ cap.

Great QBs can easily lose, or fail to get to the superbowl. Ie. Marino (lost then never got back on very good teams).

Great QB equals not superbowl appearance or victory. 3/4 of the QBs in the playoffs now are not on the team that drafted them.

 

[DipChit]

This is a very similar argument to the comebacks of both Elway and Staubach. They were both superb at taking a losing team and willing it to win.

Yet both were the starting quarterback who got the team in the hole to begin with.

I should also point out that when Denver finally did have a *team* worthy of winning championships even Elways back up at the time, Bubby Brister, looked like a HoF QB when he got to play.

 

[chinch]

The Bears this year have no qb at all. The '85 Bears and Baltimore had mediocre qb's. There is as big a difference between Dilfer and Grossman as is between Manning and Dilfer and maybe bigger. Heck, there's as big a difference between Hasselbeck and Dilfer as is between Brady and Hasselbeck. You don't have to have a franchise qb, whatever that is, to win it all because football is a team sport, it's not now or never has been about one guy. Every team that has won a super bowl has had a dominant defense, remember our Doomsdays'. How many superbowls did Marino,Fouts, Manning,etc win. How many superbowls have been won by Jim Plunkett, Joe Thiesman,Bob Griese,Jimmy McMahon,Phil Simms,Jeff Hostetler,Doug Williams,Mark Rypien,Kurt Warner,Trent Dilfer?

Bingo.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Hasselbeck has been with Seattle for 5 years. That puts him at 25 when he joined the team.

Delhomme has been with Carolina for 3 years. That puts him at 27 when he joined the team.

Plummer has been with Denver for 2 years. That puts him at 29 when he joined the team.

wayne_motley was making the point that unlike Bledsoe and Brunnel, those three guys are somehow "up and comers" who have many years left in the NFL. He even went so far as to claim that those guys are going to play into the next decade. Vinny Testeverde, here we come.

I don't know what your information means to the conversation, but thanks for adding it. Here's another tidbit ...5 years ago Bledsoe was 28.

And, boy, its hard to believe that 3 of the 4 "franchise QB's" playing this week are on their 2nd team in the NFL.