So Much For the Franchise QB Theory

[gbrittain]

Bingo.

Jim Plunkett, Joe Thiesman,Bob Griese,Jimmy McMahon,Phil Simms,Jeff Hostetler,Doug Williams,Mark Rypien,Kurt Warner,Trent Dilfer?

Jim Plunkett #1 overall pick in the draft.
Bob Griese #4 overall pick in the draft.
Phil Simms #7 overall pick in the draft.
Jim McMahon #5 overall pick in the draft.
Doug Williams #17 overall pick in the draft.
Trent Dilfer #6 overall pick in the draft.


And by the way, the year that Jeff Hostetler won the Superbowl. Phil Simms was the starter for 14 games until he got hurt. The year after the 13-3 season and Superbowl win the Giants went 8-8 the next year with Hos as the starter.

So that leaves you with Mark Rypien, Kurt Warner and Joe Theisman of the guys you mentioned. It looks more like you were trying to make my point for me.

 

[gbrittain]

wayne_motley was making the point that unlike Bledsoe and Brunnel, those three guys are somehow "up and comers" who have many years left in the NFL. He even went so far as to claim that those guys are going to play into the next decade. Vinny Testeverde, here we come.

I don't know what your information means to the conversation, but thanks for adding it. Here's another tidbit ...5 years ago Bledsoe was 28.

And, boy, its hard to believe that 3 of the 4 "franchise QB's" playing this week are on their 2nd team in the NFL.

I understand that. I am just saying that they were young guys when they joined the team, minus Jake the Snake. It is not inconceivable that by the time their careers are over that they will have QBed their team for a decade.

Thanks for your sarcasm though. Very nice touch.

 

[kartr]

I know it is not about one guy. It is much more than that. It is a TEAM game and failure to put a good team together results in...well nothing. Simply stated their is not a more important player on the field than a QB.

Again dont disagree with me, I am taking my cues from NFL GMs and history. How many of the last NFL drafts has a QB been taken #1 overall?

You may not be able to answer that question, but I can. If you think it is just coincidence...

Since 1980 12 QBs have gone #1 overall in the NFL draft.

12 QBs
4 RBs
4 DTs
2 DEs
2 WR
1 OT
1 LB

Now plese explain that to me. Mind you this is not Fantasy Football. These are real NFL GMs making these choices.

For those of you who want to say that is the way GMs used to do things in the past, but times have changed.

Seven of the last eight NFL #1 picks have been QBs.

If the QB is just another position on the field please tell me why GMs year after year choose a QB over any other position in the draft?

Many of those real GMs drafted qbs such as Ryan Leaf,David Carr,Joey Harrington,Tim Couch, Heath Shuler,Rex Grossman,Patrick Ramsey,Rick Mirer,Kerry Collins while Jake Delhomme,Matt Hasselbeck,Tom Brady,Jake Plummer,Trent Green,Drew Brees were picked after the first round. How many first round qbs got their teams to the playoffs this year, how many are left in the playoffs now, and it's like that every year. Most playoff teams don't have first round qb's starting. Maybe if these real GMS thought about this some, maybe I'd have a lot more respect for them. The real reason that there so many poor coaching hires is that most real GMS are downright incompetent about selecting their coaches, for example:

In one year, Terry Bradway has taken what was a playoff team in the Jets and destroyed the team over night by:

1) signing a qb who had never played a full season to a 7 year 64 mil. dollar contract

2) Traded Santana Moss, one of the most explosive WR's for one with a bad toe
3) let one of the best RT in the league go,Kareem McKenzie
4) let Jason Ferguson go, a quality DT
5) let Lamont Jordan go, a quality RB
6) let the Quincy Carter go, the best backup qb they ever had,knowing that their starter had a bad shoulder
7) drafted a kicker in the second round
8) traded a number one draft pick for a backup TE
9) let the most successful head coach in their recent history go for a 4th round draft pick

Meanwhile, Tom Donaho gets fired, while he added Lee Evans, Willis McGahee, J.P. Losman and brought in a quality backup qb in Kelly Holcomb. He also traded away Travis Henry who has a drug problem for a draft pick. The Bills have a good nucleus of players to be good a long time,meanwhile the Jets are a disaster area. Most NFL owners and GMS don't have a recent track-record of making good decisions, so don't tell me what they think or do as if they know it all.

 

[superpunk]

look at those 2 QBs you mention

Matt Hasselbeck-3rd round pick, no starting experience before being asked to be the man for Seattle
Jake Delhomme-undrafted, Saints practice squad, NFLE backup, then split-starter

still want to positively rule out Romo or Henson being the future at QB?

:clap2:slow clap.....

 

[kartr]

Jim Plunkett, Joe Thiesman,Bob Griese,Jimmy McMahon,Phil Simms,Jeff Hostetler,Doug Williams,Mark Rypien,Kurt Warner,Trent Dilfer?

Jim Plunkett #1 overall pick in the draft.
Bob Griese #4 overall pick in the draft.
Phil Simms #7 overall pick in the draft.
Jim McMahon #5 overall pick in the draft.
Doug Williams #17 overall pick in the draft.
Trent Dilfer #6 overall pick in the draft.


And by the way, the year that Jeff Hostetler won the Superbowl. Phil Simms was the starter for 14 games until he got hurt. The year after the 13-3 season and Superbowl win the Giants went 8-8 the next year with Hos as the starter.

So that leaves you with Mark Rypien, Kurt Warner and Joe Theisman of the guys you mentioned. It looks more like you were trying to make my point for me.

I make your point, but only from a superficial perspective. None of those qb's were ever considered elite qb's by the play on the field, only by their draft status. All of those teams had top five defenses with dominant running games. All of those qb's could have been replaced by qb's with 2nd,3rd, and 4th round pedigrees. Or do you think that Montana(3rd round),Brett Farve(2nd round) or Brady(6th round) couldn't have quarter backed those teams to victory. Heck, even Delhomme(udfa) could have won for those teams.

 

[superpunk]

No, but I don't think this says that they will be the future either. For every Hasselbeck there are fifty that don't work out. For every Delhomme, there are a 1000.

Really? How about Brett Favre, Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, the list goes on and on. It happens all the time, with great success in many cases. For every Troy Aikman or Carson Palmer there are just as many Akili Smith's, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, etc. Parcells knows something about these guys, particularly Romo IMO, that none of us are aware of. I trust his judgement there.

 

[Hostile]

Why do QBs rise every year in the Draft? Why do teams take them overall #1 so often? Why are they the highest paid position players? Why do Franchise QBs not hit the markets but other positions do?

Anyone who thinks having a Franchise QB doesn't improve your chances of a long established run at competing for Super Bowl titles is delusional.

That position matters more than any other on the football field.

 

[Derinyar]

Why do QBs rise every year in the Draft? Why do teams take them overall #1 so often? Why are they the highest paid position players? Why do Franchise QBs not hit the markets but other positions do?

Anyone who thinks having a Franchise QB doesn't improve your chances of a long established run at competing for Super Bowl titles is delusional.

That position matters more than any other on the football field.

Once again your discussing things in a logical manner, its not likely to work out at all.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Its the most important single position in the game, but its not the most important aspect of the game. Defense and offensive line play are the most important aspects.

 

[gbrittain]

Many of those real GMs drafted qbs such as Ryan Leaf,David Carr,Joey Harrington,Tim Couch, Heath Shuler,Rex Grossman,Patrick Ramsey,Rick Mirer,Kerry Collins while Jake Delhomme,Matt Hasselbeck,Tom Brady,Jake Plummer,Trent Green,Drew Brees were picked after the first round. How many first round qbs got their teams to the playoffs this year, how many are left in the playoffs now, and it's like that every year. Most playoff teams don't have first round qb's starting. Maybe if these real GMS thought about this some, maybe I'd have a lot more respect for them. The real reason that there so many poor coaching hires is that most real GMS are downright incompetent about selecting their coaches, for example:

In one year, Terry Bradway has taken what was a playoff team in the Jets and destroyed the team over night by:

1) signing a qb who had never played a full season to a 7 year 64 mil. dollar contract

2) Traded Santana Moss, one of the most explosive WR's for one with a bad toe
3) let one of the best RT in the league go,Kareem McKenzie
4) let Jason Ferguson go, a quality DT
5) let Lamont Jordan go, a quality RB
6) let the Quincy Carter go, the best backup qb they ever had,knowing that their starter had a bad shoulder
7) drafted a kicker in the second round
8) traded a number one draft pick for a backup TE
9) let the most successful head coach in their recent history go for a 4th round draft pick

Meanwhile, Tom Donaho gets fired, while he added Lee Evans, Willis McGahee, J.P. Losman and brought in a quality backup qb in Kelly Holcomb. He also traded away Travis Henry who has a drug problem for a draft pick. The Bills have a good nucleus of players to be good a long time,meanwhile the Jets are a disaster area. Most NFL owners and GMS don't have a recent track-record of making good decisions, so don't tell me what they think or do as if they know it all.

When GMs know that it is very difficult to hit on a QB, but they continue to do so year after year after year. What does that tell you?

 

[wileedog]

When GMs know that it is very difficult to hit on a QB, but they continue to do so year after year after year. What does that tell you?

That QBs sell tickets, not offensive linemen.

 

[Derinyar]

When GMs know that it is very difficult to hit on a QB, but they continue to do so year after year after year. What does that tell you?

That the chances of getting a top notch player is better when your putting a higher round pick into it.

Yes you can pull a stud out of the later part of or after the draft. But those guys are less common. Even as far as having a productive QB your %'s are just higher using a high pick on it. Realize that by saying at least 1 in 2 1st round QB's are going to be NFL failures.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Why do QBs rise every year in the Draft? Why do teams take them overall #1 so often? Why are they the highest paid position players? Why do Franchise QBs not hit the markets but other positions do?

Anyone who thinks having a Franchise QB doesn't improve your chances of a long established run at competing for Super Bowl titles is delusional.

That position matters more than any other on the football field.

yep

but I'm just saying you don't need to be so worried about spending so much to acquire an unknown in the 1st round

there are many examples in today's NFL of QBs coming out of the dearths of the NFL to become franchise QBs

 

[gbrittain]

That QBs sell tickets, not offensive linemen.

I dont think that is it. Winning sells tickets.

Nope not buying it. Tim Couch sell tickets. Carson Palmer on the bench for a year. David Carr? Tim Couch over Donovan McNabb?

No, you could make that argument for Michael Vick, but that is about it. Maybe Eli Manning on name recognition.

 

[InmanRoshi]

That the chances of getting a top notch player is better when your putting a higher round pick into it.

Yes you can pull a stud out of the later part of or after the draft. But those guys are less common. Even as far as having a productive QB your %'s are just higher using a high pick on it. Realize that by saying at least 1 in 2 1st round QB's are going to be NFL failures.

That currently doesn't seem to be the case at the QB position. There are more top notch QB's in today's NFL that were drafted in Day 2 and UDFA than there are mid-late 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds. Out of the 6 QB's playing in the Pro Bowl, you have 3 who were the first pick in the draft and the other 3 were late round picks and undrafted free agents. Where are the late 1sts? Where are the 2nd and 3rd rounders?

 

[jterrell]

I guess Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselbeck, Roethlisberger, and Jake Plummer are chopped liver. What a moronic post.

Plummer, Delhomme and Hasselback were all complete afterthoughts.

All 3 were available to any team willing to pony up middling asking prices. Delhomme and Plummer could both be starting here.

Had Chicago won yesterday then Grossman would have all of a sudden been pretty dang good.

If you win you get credit, you lose you get criticism. Thats the way it works.
When we were 7-3 everyone was on board with Bledsoe as being pretty dang good. We finished 2-4 and he sucked and could never win another game.

 

[Hostile]

yep

but I'm just saying you don't need to be so worried about spending so much to acquire an unknown in the 1st round

there are many examples in today's NFL of QBs coming out of the dearths of the NFL to become franchise QBs

A wise old cowboy once told me, "the contest doesn't always go to the stronger or faster man, but that's the way to bet."

 

[Bach]

I'd prefer to take my chances with a franchise QB. It's probably a little easier than having a bus driver who needs a dominant defense, special teams, OL, running game, etc.

Baltimore and Tampa Bay both did it, once. Neither ever made it before they won it all, and neither has made it back since.

So yeah, I'd rather try to get there and build something with a franchise QB than to try and catch lightning in a bottle and be a one year wonder.


Also, Roethlisberger is no slouch. He was the 13th player taken in '04 and is now in his second consecutive championship game in his second season.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

A wise old cowboy once told me, "the contest doesn't always go to the stronger or faster man, but that's the way to bet."

true, but no NFL club makes moves to comfort the fan base

 

[Hostile]

I'd prefer to take my chances with a franchise QB. It's probably a little easier than having a bus driver who needs a dominant defense, special teams, OL, running game, etc.

Baltimore and Tampa Bay both did it, once. Neither ever made it before they won it all, and neither has made it back since.

So yeah, I'd rather try to get there and build something with a franchise QB than to try and catch lightning in a bottle and be a one year wonder.


Also, Roethlisberger is no slouch. He was the 13th player taken in '04 and is now in his second consecutive championship game in his second season.