Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[Ranching]

coach, do you have any 3-4 attack ideas u can expound on here?

You know how i feel about the 3-4 defense. It's a great defense, learned it from one of the best in HS football. Also had the opportunity to get some pointers from Wade himself at a clinic a few years back. It takes time to put together the right personnel and staff to run it effectively. Our offense is in win now mode, we need to stick to what we have and het better at it. We are not that far away......

 

[xwalker]

Like I said- One of my favorite reads. I am very glad you are still here.

I'm not one that tries to be rude.

I ended up focused on 1 poster because nobody else was really pushing the 3-4 concept but him.

There were several pushing the Taco sux agenda and several that claimed Taco sucked in the HOF game so I probably should have made it more generic.

 

[Ranching]

I'm not one that tries to be rude.

I ended up focused on 1 poster because nobody else was really pushing the 3-4 concept but him.

There were several pushing the Taco sux agenda and several that claimed Taco sucked in the HOF game so I probably should have made it more generic.

Over reaction on my part, just sticking up for my boy. We all know you do a great job. One of my favorites, as well.

 

[waldoputty]

I get you like the 3-4 and when we had a 3-4 and most of the pieces to run it the defense was marginally better. DWare as much as many people here thinks he walks on water tended to disappear come December for some reason. This team has a bunch of pieces that could fit a 3-4 or the 4-3 the problem is the pieces fit a 4-3 better maybe not a good 4-3 defense but a 4-3. Lee won't hold up playing ILB in the 4-3 he would walk to go to a 4-3 team so another position to fill, Can Smith/Hitchens/Smith play any of the other LB positions, maybe smith so we still need 3 linebackers. What 3 guys do we have to play the space eater roles of 3 down lineman, Collins maybe but it takes away what he does best, TCraw maybe since he really does not need pass rush moves to be 3-4 DE and he excels at playing the run maybe. Who do we have to play the space eater int he middle of the DL I guess we draft. Now lets look at the 4-3 DE we have can any of them be DWare or close to him hell I do not think any of them could be Anthony Spencer. You would have too many holes to fill and too many guys you would need to release or trade

Fact 1: by end of 2017, mayowa, dlaw and paea are done. that is 3/8 of the DL rotation.
Fact 2: ideally to do the switch 2018 ddraft = 1st: OLB, 2nd: NT, 3rd : OG, 4th: OLB, 5th: NT etc. we have 9 picks or more.
Fact 3: I think there are reports that Richard Ash did pretty well holding up against double teams and he is 330lb.

the 1st and 2nd fact addresses the 3-4 fit of the roster. 3/8 of the DL will be gone, and hope to draft multiple OLB and NT. the 3rd points out that we may already have a NT/1tech candidate on the roster who may well be on the practice squad.

regarding lee, yes not the best fit. but going 3-4 does not mean we never play 4-2-5 or 4-3. just like we are 4-3 but we play 4-2-5 and 3 man fronts (and even 2 man front).

finally regarding the severity of the switch consider this 4-3 formation which is quite likely this year:

RDE: tapper
3tech: collins
1tech: thornton
LDE: crawford
LBs: jaylon, lee, one more

this is where i show my lack of knowledge but bear with me though pros feel free to correct me. so lets say we are in the 4-3 but during the quarterback signals, we shift to a 3-4:

DE: collins
NT: thornton or NT drafted in 2nd round etc.
DE: crawford
LBs: jaylon, lee, 1st round pick
additional roaming LB (almost always rush): tapper

is that such a big change?
ideally the NT would be the NT that was drafted or signed in the offseason.

then we have 3 LBs to pick for rushing. jaylon, tapper and/or 1st round pick.
they can shift around, threaten the double-a, all out blitz or drop back etc.
DBs would play zone, which is the strength of the new DBs we picked up.

now may be simple minded but that is my preference for a D scheme, minus other things like corner blitzes etc.

 

[Corso]

I'm not one that tries to be rude.

I ended up focused on 1 poster because nobody else was really pushing the 3-4 concept but him.

There were several pushing the Taco sux agenda and several that claimed Taco sucked in the HOF game so I probably should have made it more generic.

Never said you were. Good point there though. I egged him on that in another thread and we had our handshake moment, but- as always, you go deeper than my attention span allows. Very nice work.

 

[jrumann59]

Fact 1: by end of 2017, mayowa, dlaw and paea are done. that is 3/8 of the DL rotation.
Fact 2: ideally to do the switch 2018 ddraft = 1st: OLB, 2nd: NT, 3rd : OG, 4th: OLB, 5th: NT etc. we have 9 picks or more.
Fact 3: I think there are reports that Richard Ash did pretty well holding up against double teams and he is 330lb.

the 1st and 2nd fact addresses the 3-4 fit of the roster. 3/8 of the DL will be gone, and hope to draft multiple OLB and NT. the 3rd points out that we may already have a NT/1tech candidate on the roster who may well be on the practice squad.

regarding lee, yes not the best fit. but going 3-4 does not mean we never play 4-2-5 or 4-3. just like we are 4-3 but we play 4-2-5 and 3 man fronts (and even 2 man front).

finally regarding the severity of the switch consider this 4-3 formation which is quite likely this year:

RDE: tapper
3tech: collins
1tech: thornton
LDE: crawford
LBs: jaylon, lee, one more

this is where i show my lack of knowledge but bear with me though pros feel free to correct me. so lets say we are in the 4-3 but during the quarterback signals, we shift to a 3-4:

DE: collins
NT: thornton or NT drafted in 2nd round etc.
DE: crawford
LBs: jaylon, lee, 1st round pick
additional roaming LB (almost always rush): tapper

is that such a big change?
ideally the NT would be the NT that was drafted or signed in the offseason.

then we have 3 LBs to pick for rushing. jaylon, tapper and/or 1st round pick.
they can shift around, threaten the double-a, all out blitz or drop back etc.
DBs would play zone, which is the strength of the new DBs we picked up.

now may be simple minded but that is my preference for a D scheme, minus other things like corner blitzes etc.

Yes because besides Thornton and TCraw you are basically neutering an up an coming 3T DT to face DT and tackles all day. Lee who was still fragile in 3-4 is finally "reliable" in a 4-3. Now you have us converting at least one guy who has always had his hand in the dirt into a stand up guy that will either face the other teams best OL or double teams. Besides maybe Jaylon or Lee we do not have the bigger LBers needed to man the other LB positions. And the premise that this team will hit on every draft pick to switch is a little short sighted. Rush LB are just as hard to find as DE

 

[Shuff]

Girls will be girls.......

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As for the 'call out' I don't see what the issue. X described a misunderstanding and did not deride.

As for the 3-4, I don't mind it as long as its a 1 gapping technique like Phillips and Ryan used. I did not like Parcells version. The running game is diminished making it ineffective. I see both attacking defenses as having advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages to an attacking 3-4 is that it is easier to disguise and in theory you can send your fourth from anywhere around the formation.

This does not end up bearing out in practice as the only premiere pass rushers that can cover well I can think of are Mack and to a lesser extent Matthews. If we had a talent like that then I too would call for a switch.

We don't though and for all the talk of scarcity, the above type is rarer than QBs, RDE, and rush LB. Prospects only come out occasionally and it's hard as hell to cultivate such a dynamic skill set. You can count the number with it in the NFL at any one time on one hand.

What ends up happening most of the time is you end with a guy like Ware was who everyone understood was going to be the 4th rusher 95% of the time. Then your disguising front is a lie.

Another advantage is middle runs if you have a NT worth a flip. You need a guy like Frederick if you want consistent push against those.

The main disadvantage of the 3-4 is size on the perimeter. Even small mobile OL are going to outweigh edge players by 40 lbs. Not only does it make you susceptible to stretches, sweeps, and the like but also the short passing game with the screens, smoke routes and the like. More and more college offenses are prepping players in that last bit because any monkey can QB it.

As for advantages of the 4-3, first it's a more balanced front. The 1 is smaller and the LDE and 3T are larger. You do not need to draft guys on the line that can cover.

Further, you have the alignment of the 3T which has 2 main positive consequences. First it isolates the 3T and the RDE as long as the 1 engages the C. The alignment allows the WILL to set up a yard or 2 wider and frees him up to cover the weak side better or pursue down the line without the LG or C in his face. With many teams not employing a FB this becomes even more effective.

The disadvantage is middle runs. The 1T is easy to combo or double team. I don't see it as much of an issue outside of the red zone. If teams want to get 4 YPC and turtle down the field then let them try. They are running right into the pursuit.

TLDR: if you have Mack, Mathews, LT, or the like then sure build a 3-4. Else run a 4-3. The aforementioned players are rarer than quality QB.

 

[waldoputty]

Yes because besides Thornton and TCraw you are basically neutering an up an coming 3T DT to face DT and tackles all day. Lee who was still fragile in 3-4 is finally "reliable" in a 4-3. Now you have us converting at least one guy who has always had his hand in the dirt into a stand up guy that will either face the other teams best OL or double teams. Besides maybe Jaylon or Lee we do not have the bigger LBers needed to man the other LB positions. And the premise that this team will hit on every draft pick to switch is a little short sighted. Rush LB are just as hard to find as DE

this 3-4 conversion assumes 2017 was a failure so the up and coming 3tech may not be so up and coming.
i would also point out that the practices has recently shown the RDE standing up like the seattle leo? so is that really such a big transition.
Jaylon is probably 250lb, but i admit Lee is small for the 3-4. though lee's contract is up after 2019?
i am not assuming we hit on every pick. i want to pick multiple NTs and multiple OLBs. also a NT FA is likely much much cheaper (and available) than a DE FA.
i suspect a good FA OLB is easier to find than a good FA DE.

if you disagree with the premise that a rush LB is as hard to find as a good DE, then you basically disagree with the basic premise of my idea. i dont think a Von Miller will be possible, but my belief is a LB 1/2 tier below is easier to get than a DE 1/2 tier below Myles Garrett.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Fact 1: by end of 2017, mayowa, dlaw and paea are done. that is 3/8 of the DL rotation.

Waldo, it's not a Fact.

Mayowa is signed through 2018.

 

[xwalker]

i know.
it does get to the point of no one listening to each other.
when i was doing all that work for the cap calculations etc, i was writing for other zoners as well as press that read.
some thinks it is stupid, but my sincere belief is that press reads this stuff.

zimmer's d is not that different from the 3-4 except i have want the RDE freed up from the LT.
but if you move the RDE, then you are in a 3-4.
i love the double a-gap blitzes as an important attack option but that is hardly new.
i remember landry doing that with michael downs and one other db decades ago.
i dont think the multiple LB blitz threats forcing the O to react - so that is not new either...
how does one reconcile zimmer doing bend but dont break but his aggressive blitz packages like the double-a formation.
i really dont remember what zimmer did here, but i dont recall it being that aggressive...

If I thought you were trolling, then I would have just put you on ignore.

The fact that I "called you out" as some say means that I've been listening to what you've been saying.

My point in this thread was not to just create another 3-4 debate because we didn't need another thread for that.

There was a guy here in the past that was a great poster, but he came up with a concept that most people thought was terrible and he basically refused to acknowledge anybody's dissenting opinion. For him, he was right, end of story. No other opinions mattered. I'm just saying don't be that guy. Actually, I think you and I were in agreement on that debate, but I don't want to get more specific about the subject here because I don't want to be accused of calling somebody out again.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The biggest fallacy is that Taco is the key to our season..... his development is important but not critical to our success this year..... I can see us drafting a DE early for the next 5 years... he is just another weapon

Agreed on this.

Charlton is NOT the key to the season.

Good health for Crawford, Lawrence and Tapper is huge.

Lawrence had 1 sack in 329 snaps in 2016... That can't happen again.

Crawford had 4.5 sacks in 626 snaps in 2016... He needs to be at least 1 sack per 100 snaps.

 

[waldoputty]

As for the 'call out' I don't see what the issue. X described a misunderstanding and did not deride.

As for the 3-4, I don't mind it as long as its a 1 gapping technique like Phillips and Ryan used. I did not like Parcells version. The running game is diminished making it ineffective. I see both attacking defenses as having advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages to an attacking 3-4 is that it is easier to disguise and in theory you can send your fourth from anywhere around the formation.

This does not end up bearing out in practice as the only premiere pass rushers that can cover well I can think of are Mack and to a lesser extent Matthews. If we had a talent like that then I too would call for a switch.

We don't though and for all the talk of scarcity, the above type is rarer than QBs, RDE, and rush LB. Prospects only come out occasionally and it's hard as hell to cultivate such a dynamic skill set. You can count the number with it in the NFL at any one time on one hand.

What ends up happening most of the time is you end with a guy like Ware was who everyone understood was going to be the 4th rusher 95% of the time. Then your disguising front is a lie.

Another advantage is middle runs if you have a NT worth a flip. You need a guy like Frederick if you want consistent push against those.

The main disadvantage of the 3-4 is size on the perimeter. Even small mobile OL are going to outweigh edge players by 40 lbs. Not only does it make you susceptible to stretches, sweeps, and the like but also the short passing game with the screens, smoke routes and the like. More and more college offenses are prepping players in that last bit because any monkey can QB it.

As for advantages of the 4-3, first it's a more balanced front. The 1 is smaller and the LDE and 3T are larger. You do not need to draft guys on the line that can cover.

Further, you have the alignment of the 3T which has 2 main positive consequences. First it isolates the 3T and the RDE as long as the 1 engages the C. The alignment allows the WILL to set up a yard or 2 wider and frees him up to cover the weak side better or pursue down the line without the LG or C in his face. With many teams not employing a FB this becomes even more effective.

The disadvantage is middle runs. The 1T is easy to combo or double team. I don't see it as much of an issue outside of the red zone. If teams want to get 4 YPC and turtle down the field then let them try. They are running right into the pursuit.

TLDR: if you have Mack, Mathews, LT, or the like then sure build a 3-4. Else run a 4-3. The aforementioned players are rarer than quality QB.

i guess what i was thinking about is the use of the 3-4 during definite passing downs (3 and 15 or more) and in some likely passing downs (3 and 10). for 1st and 10, i could see a mixture of the 3-4 and the 4-3 to change things up.

even if the offense know the top passrusher would passrush, would uncertainty not be maintained as the passrusher could shift among the different gaps?

also someone like a jaylon could rush or threaten to rush but drop back, forcing the offense to leave the RB and/or TE behind to block? in a 3-and-long, forcing the offense to adjust would obviously be a scheme win.

ideally the 1tech would be replaced with the heavier NT, which many of us would like to see Marinelli do but refuse to.

such a 3-4 can easily shift back to a 4-3 if desired. tapper would merely put his hands back down on the ground at RDE. you would still have Lee, Jaylon and the OLB as the LBs which should suffice against the run or pass.
yes it is a hybrid, but that is what we are doing now anyway.

 

[waldoputty]

If I thought you were trolling, then I would have just put you on ignore.

The fact that I "called you out" as some say means that I've been listening to what you've been saying.

My point in this thread was not to just create another 3-4 debate because we didn't need another thread for that.

There was a guy here in the past that was a great poster, but he came up with a concept that most people thought was terrible and he basically refused to acknowledge anybody's dissenting opinion. For him, he was right, end of story. No other opinions mattered. I'm just saying don't be that guy. Actually, I think you and I were in agreement on that debate, but I don't want to get more specific about the subject here because I don't want to be accused of calling somebody out again.

i dont want to be like that.
i have taken a couple positions that run against the grain in the salary cap and free agency. and i am directly criticizing the FO, which bothers many.
so it does become an argument against the great majority.
i really dont know how else to handle it.

i know it does not look like it.
but i do read and think about comments from others when we disagree.
though that is mostly limited to you, fuzz and a couple other people.
in a lot of these long disagreements, many posters get personal and stop making points.

 

[waldoputty]

Waldo, it's not a Fact.

Mayowa is signed through 2018.

ok, i stand corrected.

 

[xwalker]

Over reaction on my part, just sticking up for my boy. We all know you do a great job. One of my favorites, as well.

You've probably right in retrospect. I should have made my comments generic and not specific to one person.

It's like I said in the OP, I find him to be a likable poster. It's always an interesting debate on schemes, but even you with a self-professed love of the 3-4 said it's a bad idea.

It's not really the scheme issue that got me worked up. It's the Taco sucks or he's probably going to suck part of it that didn't set well with me. It's the reason that people say Taco sucks that bugs me. It's ALL based on his forty time. If they had drafted Tapper where they drafted Taco, more people would have given him an chance because he ran a fast forty. It's not as if the Cowboys didn't see their forty times. People did the same thing with Frederick. Both Frederick and Taco were rated much higher by the media before they ran slow forty times and then most media dropped them almost a round (more for Fred). It's just inane logic to me.

 

[Ranching]

You've probably right in retrospect. I should have made my comments generic and not specific to one person.

It's like I said in the OP, I find him to be a likable poster. It's always an interesting debate on schemes, but even you with a self-professed love of the 3-4 said it's a bad idea.

It's not really the scheme issue that got me worked up. It's the Taco sucks or he's probably going to suck part of it that didn't set well with me. It's the reason that people say say Taco sucks that bugs me. It's ALL based on his forty time. If they had drafted Tapper where they drafted Taco, more people would have given him an chance because he ran a fast forty. It's not as if the Cowboys didn't see their forty times. People did the same thing with Frederick. Both Frederick and Taco were rated much higher by the media before they ran slow forty times and then most media dropped them almost a round (more for Fred). It's just inane logic to me.

I hear you, all the negativity about players that haven't even played in a real game is a real downer.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

that is a lot of stuff. i will try to address most of them.

first of all, my writing style can be sort of light/whimsical. it is not out of disrepect, but just a personal preference. it takes getting used to, if anyone were to bother.

regarding that thread, it assumes that the season is a failure so i am suggesting a change to a 3-4 scheme. so imagine the simplest decision tree. if success, do more of the same. if failure, make change. my thread assumes the season has failed and taco/tapper/collins/etc have failed us, in which case, their 'value' suffer.

regarding the 3-4, yes it is a favorite of mine. but like fuzzy has suggested, the zimmer 4-3 is pretty nice. however, i still prefer the 3-4 because it keeps the best passrusher away from the best OL.

accepting others' comments. believe it or not, i do. however, i am not going to do it just to be PC. btw, i appreciate your information and you have been quite patient in areas that i simply am not knowledgeable. so thank you. in the same vein, i am attacking basically the establishment, so i expect a lot of resistance. i am attacking the Cowboys front office, so i expect many to be upset by it. i am used to fighting with lawyers all day, so i am used to dealing with resistance. resistance basically bounces off me, as long as it is polite.

big picture - i like to think that way. i usually dont remember which gap is what or other specifics. i like to think of things in an organic non-technical fashion. i think that rubs a lot of football addicts in a bad way, but that is just the way i am.

in a big picture fashion, i think of the 3-4 as a solution if the 4-3 fails us again this year. i really believe it will help acquire the passrusher given the realities of today's NFL. fuzzy does not agree, but i do not agree with fuzzy. yes the von millers of the world get picked at top 5, but i am talking 1/2 tier below that. i think that is where there is opportunity to get the passrusher if we compromise to get a 240lb guy instead of the 280lb DE. of course not any 240lb fast guy would do. i am the one who took the trouble to post the sparq-performance charts so obviously i know that.

i am not alone in this belief. i was triggered to create the thread specifically after reading alexander's table for the top 12 pass rushers - 2/3 were LBs. furthermore, during the FA argument, many argued AGAINST me that the DE FA was just not available and would be franchised. guess what, they were right, so i modified my belief to accommodate that reality.

regarding whether we have the right players to play the 3-4, many have said we do not. i do not agree as thornton and crawford have played in the 3-4. furthermore, collins does well as both 1tech and 3tech so he should hold up ok. some argue that this would be wasting collins, but my answer is that my suggestion is IF this season is a failure.

regarding taco, i actually have posted numerous posts that were favorable regarding his physical results. that includes 40 times, 10 yard times, cone and shuttle. he is amazingly similar to hardy, bosa etc. if you go back a couple months, you will see that i posted those stats. so no, that is not fair. as i tried to say many times, i dont think we know what we have in him and we will not know for quite a while.

what i do not agree with is the overall decision making process with the offseason. again, in my work and play, i have always believe in looking at the big picture. in this case, it seems to me the front office has jeopardized the 2017 season by gutting the defensive backfield, there by forcing a change in the draft priorities to CB and DE from strictly DE.

thus this leads to the final point, tanking. if we already jeopardized the 2017 season, then why not just tank it to get the DE or OLB. am i saying to tank it in game 1, probably not. but come mid-season, it should be pretty self-evident. fuzzy thinks that my tanking suggestion is an argument ploy, but actually i am dead serious. why bother being a pretender when you are not a contender. i want a dynasty, and i suspect we all do.

i hope i touched on most of your points.

except one thing....you assumed a simple decision tree. what if we are slightly improved? is that part of your simple decision tree? and you continuously have stated the the 4-3 has failed and the defense was bad, yet provided nothing to back up your assertion or assumption. except that its your perception.

 

[xwalker]

i dont want to be like that.
i have taken a couple positions that run against the grain in the salary cap and free agency. and i am directly criticizing the FO, which bothers many.
so it does become an argument against the great majority.
i really dont know how else to handle it.

i know it does not look like it.
but i do read and think about comments from others when we disagree.
though that is mostly limited to you, fuzz and a couple other people.
in a lot of these long disagreements, many posters get personal and stop making points.

I try not to make it personal and again, sorry if this thread felt a negative "call-out". It was not intended to be negative.

I would like for you to do some research on what the Falcons do with Vic Beasley and report back your opinion on that. Von Miller and Bruce Irvin have also played in 4-3 defenses at one point in a similar role. The concept seems very similar to a 3-4 in many ways; although, I studied Von Miller and Bruce Irvin more than I've studied Vic Beasley.

if Beasley lines up as the Strong Side 4-3 LB next to the LDE AND the DL is shifted right with the LDE head up on the RT and the RDE shifted outside of the LT, then to me the RDE is very similar to one of the 3-4 OLBs and Beasley is very similar the other other 3-4 OLB. Ware rarely dropped in coverage anyway so his 3-4 role and the RDE's role in this 4-3 seems very similar.

If you take a photo of the above alignment and super-impose it on a Wade Phillips defense, I'm think the location on the field of the players will be very similar.

 

[waldoputty]

except one thing....you assumed a simple decision tree. what if we are slightly improved? is that part of your simple decision tree? and you continuously have stated the the 4-3 has failed and the defense was bad, yet provided nothing to back up your assertion or assumption. except that its your perception.

that is fair.
i am obviously simplifying the argument for sake of discussion.
it would definitely be a case by case analysis.

i am an events-driven personal when it comes to this.
i decide on solution for each scenario and move on.
there is no way any of us to know what taco, tapper or even collins become this season.
so my way of dealing with it is just simplify the situation and worry about complications later

regarding the defense failing in 2016, i dont think i would be in the minority here.
the defense could not stop top offenses last year.
the pass rush was ineffective when we watch the games.
you saw the games too, did you feel the DL was doing great.
and i am not talking about the last play of the green bay game.