Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[Ranching]

I feel a group hug coming soon! Lol, you guys are pretty damn good with your views and postings. A lot of brain cells around here. Looking forward to all the banter that is sure to come. Let's hope it's a great year, cause some of us can be brutal around here.

 

[waldoputty]

I try not to make it personal and again, sorry if this thread felt a negative "call-out". It was not intended to be negative.

I would like for you to do some research on what the Falcons do with Vic Beasley and report back your opinion on that. Von Miller and Bruce Irvin have also played in 4-3 defenses at one point in a similar role. The concept seems very similar to a 3-4 in many ways; although, I studied Von Miller and Bruce Irvin more than I've studied Vic Beasley.

if Beasley lines up as the Strong Side 4-3 LB next to the LDE AND the DL is shifted right with the LDE head up on the RT and the RDE shifted outside of the LT, then to me the RDE is very similar to one of the 3-4 OLBs and Beasley is very similar the other other 3-4 OLB. Ware rarely dropped in coverage anyway so his 3-4 role and the RDE's role in this 4-3 seems very similar.

If you take a photo of the above alignment and super-impose it on a Wade Phillips defense, I'm think the location on the field of the players will be very similar.

there is no need for any more sorry about this.
lets move on.

i will take a look later on tonight.

 

[xwalker]

there is no need for any more sorry about this.
lets move on.

i will take a look later on tonight.

Thanks.

I also want to spend some time reviewing Beasley because I do agree with the part of your premise that the defense needs to add some elements of surprise. They did try a few snaps with Wilber pass rushing as an SLB but he's just not a very good pass rusher. There were rumors in training camp that they might occasionally use Moore as a LB, but I think the media just saw him standing up and thought he was playing LB when in reality he was playing as a stand-up DE.

Part of the reason that Bosa had so much success is that he played as a 3-4 DE and they sometimes overloaded that side with him and their top pass rushing OLB side-by-side.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

thus this leads to the final point, tanking. if we already jeopardized the 2017 season, then why not just tank it to get the DE or OLB. am i saying to tank it in game 1, probably not. but come mid-season, it should be pretty self-evident. fuzzy thinks that my tanking suggestion is an argument ploy, but actually i am dead serious. why bother being a pretender when you are not a contender.

How do you tank a season half way through? Do you sit all our veterens? They will be Ok with this? How do you work that with the reality of a 53 man roster? And your tanking logic keeps shifting. Here you say lets tank midway through a season. Before you said the front office should have tanked this offseason and not signed any vets. Which is it? Furthermore, with guys playing for incentives and young players playing for playing time play bonuses how exactly do you sit them and ever attract good free agent talent when you do want to compete? Can you imagine what action the PA would take? In a sport with an incredibly short average life for players in what world do you think this works?

It's just nonsense.

 

[Nightman]

How do you tank a season half way through? Do you sit all our veterens? They will be Ok with this? How do you work that with the reality of a 53 man roster? And your tanking logic keeps shifting. Here you say lets tank midway through a season. Before you said the front office should have tanked this offseason and not signed any vets. Which is it? Furthermore, with guys playing for incentives and young players playing for playing time play bonuses how exactly do you sit them and ever attract good free agent talent when you do want to compete? Can you imagine what action the PA would take? In a sport with an incredibly short average life for players in what world do you think this works?

It's just nonsense.

Tanking is the dumbest part of the whole argument......but he knows this...... he likes to stir things up and watch the reactions

Regardless, you still might not be worse than other teams........ a stud DE might not be in this draft....vets are playing for their jobs, not to be replaced and star quality players can be bought in FA and/or traded for

 

[Verdict]

It's going to be difficult to pick the active DEs this year, especially once the suspensions are over.

They could end up with 7 DEs on the 53 and they normally only have 4 active:
Taco
Tapper
Mayowa
DLaw
Crawford
Irving
Moore

I agree with this post. It will be interesting who will start from this group and who will be the primary backups. Actually we do have decent depth. There may not be a ton of difference between the second best player to the bottom player.

 

[Verdict]

I'm not one that tries to be rude.

I ended up focused on 1 poster because nobody else was really pushing the 3-4 concept but him.

There were several pushing the Taco sux agenda and several that claimed Taco sucked in the HOF game so I probably should have made it more generic.

I have not yet decided Taco sucks. I don't think he played well in the HOF game and I have my doubts but it's early so that could change. I think his future is at left end. I don't see him as a right end. If he turns into D. Ware and becomes a dominant RDE I will cheer for him as loud as anyone. I am doubtful it happens but we can hope. I think the most likely case is that he contributes, is stout against the run, and is a marginal pass rusher.

We are too close to getting a lot better so scrapping the 4-3 would be a bad idea. I think we are closer on defense than most people think we are.

I think Marinelli may be past his prime. He has better players than he has had in some time on defense. He should get better results out of this defense barring injury. I'm not sold on Marinelli

I think Tapper has potential. Watch out for him. He flashed speed in the HOF game.

I am against tanking unless we are out of contention. Then I say tank away. The higher the draft pick the better.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Verdict]

How do you tank a season half way through? Do you sit all our veterens? They will be Ok with this? How do you work that with the reality of a 53 man roster? And your tanking logic keeps shifting. Here you say lets tank midway through a season. Before you said the front office should have tanked this offseason and not signed any vets. Which is it? Furthermore, with guys playing for incentives and young players playing for playing time play bonuses how exactly do you sit them and ever attract good free agent talent when you do want to compete? Can you imagine what action the PA would take? In a sport with an incredibly short average life for players in what world do you think this works?

It's just nonsense.

It might be nonsense but if we are out of contention find a way to make it happen.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

It might be nonsense but if we are out of contention find a way to make it happen.

Ok in a 53 man roster and you fall out of contention lets say week 11. How exactly do you tank? Vets playing for their jobs. Other vets playing for incentives. Your best rookies and first year players playing for playing time bonuses.

How in the heck do you tank?

 

[Kaiser]

How do you tank a season half way through?

Step 1 is to follow Waldo's plan and make Richard Ash a starter.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Tanking is the dumbest part of the whole argument......but he knows this...... he likes to stir things up and watch the reactions

Regardless, you still might not be worse than other teams........ a stud DE might not be in this draft....vets are playing for their jobs, not to be replaced and star quality players can be bought in FA and/or traded for

Tanking is so hare brained it's not worth taking seriously.

 

[big dog cowboy]

How do you tank a season half way through? Do you sit all our veterens? They will be Ok with this? How do you work that with the reality of a 53 man roster? And your tanking logic keeps shifting. Here you say lets tank midway through a season. Before you said the front office should have tanked this offseason and not signed any vets. Which is it? Furthermore, with guys playing for incentives and young players playing for playing time play bonuses how exactly do you sit them and ever attract good free agent talent when you do want to compete? Can you imagine what action the PA would take? In a sport with an incredibly short average life for players in what world do you think this works?

It's just nonsense.

I'm sure there is a certain member who can come up with a plan.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

The simplest answer to the question is: Personnel dictates the scheme.

I've said it before: Does anyone really think Terry Bradshaw was afraid of the famed Flex defense of the 70s? No. TB was afraid of Randy White, Harvey Martin, Too Tall, Lee Roy Jordan, Charlie Waters, Cliff Harris, Thomas Henderson, etc.

A good DC will use the scheme that maximizes his talent.

 

[waldoputty]

Ok in a 53 man roster and you fall out of contention lets say week 11. How exactly do you tank? Vets playing for their jobs. Other vets playing for incentives. Your best rookies and first year players playing for playing time bonuses.

How in the heck do you tank?

you probably have to make a decision beyond week 11 - say week 8.
again, it is not out of contention but realizing you cannot beat the top 2 teams like new england.
we have a harder schedule next year and most expect less wins.
learn from San Diego Padres and 76ers from 3 years ago.

1) find ways to lose the ball a couple times a game particularly on special teams
- fire/promote special teams coach and put in tanking coach
- fake punts
- bring in returner who is careless with the ball e.g. lucky and let him have fun
- special team formations and player selection, particularly remove DB starters from special teams. increase chance for opponent big play by using more backup lineman and less DBs.
- run the ball out of the end zone more during kickoffs
2) use any reasonable excuse to IR players and bring in inferior replacements
3) play selection
- go on 4th down
- focus on young player development without risking dak - including releasing/ir certain expiring contract players
- have an honest talk with moore
- dont waste zeke and rest him often
- find any excuse to play moore or a rookie qb and have them throw to the middle of the field
- run the ball more in 2 minute drills and not with zeke
4) telegraph defense and figure out way to give away defensive calls
5) let garrett manage the clock

 

[Ranching]

Ok in a 53 man roster and you fall out of contention lets say week 11. How exactly do you tank? Vets playing for their jobs. Other vets playing for incentives. Your best rookies and first year players playing for playing time bonuses.

How in the heck do you tank?

Throw the ball on 3rd and short instead of handing it to Zeke.....Oh, wait. Lol

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

that is fair.
i am obviously simplifying the argument for sake of discussion.
it would definitely be a case by case analysis.

i am an events-driven personal when it comes to this.
i decide on solution for each scenario and move on.
there is no way any of us to know what taco, tapper or even collins become this season.
so my way of dealing with it is just simplify the situation and worry about complications later

regarding the defense failing in 2016, i dont think i would be in the minority here.
the defense could not stop top offenses last year.
the pass rush was ineffective when we watch the games.
you saw the games too, did you feel the DL was doing great.
and i am not talking about the last play of the green bay game.

I think the approach you have taken makes things more complicated.

On the one hand, you say there is no way we know how tapper, taco and Collins will do. yet we have evidence on how Collins can do, given his last year's performance. yet you dismiss that and claim he could be worse, we just don't know...

yet, you also put Collins, taco and Crawford as DL in a 3-4 and tapper as ROLB and claim that 's better. yet you have no idea how they would do in a 3-4. Taco never played 3-4 DE. Collins never played NT and is not his natural position. you claim Crawford played 3-4 De yet, he sucked at it. tapper has never played ROLB. but in your opinion that is going to work better than the 4-3 they play and have played and in case of Collins having excelled in the 3-tech.

not sure what to make of that......

regarding the second paragraph. you claimed the offense helped the defense. and you claimed that having a great scoring against defense is not important and only pass rush matters. you said NE defense wasn't that good, yet they won the superbowl and stopped one of the best offenses in the league. you have been all over the place with your responses.

and you have yet to answer, why all the other 3-4 defenses outside of Denver and Houston have been average and below average? if 3-4 is such a cure, elixir that heals all defensive issues and so easy to find personnel for the scheme, why aren't 32 teams doing it. why aren't all the 3-4 defenses in the top 15 of the league? why aren't they the best pass rushing teams? you have not filled that caveat in your argument...I think its because it makes your hypothesis fall apart.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

you probably have to make a decision beyond week 11 - say week 8.
again, it is not out of contention but realizing you cannot beat the top 2 teams like new england.
we have a harder schedule next year and most expect less wins.
learn from San Diego Padres and 76ers from 3 years ago.

1) find ways to lose the ball a couple times a game particularly on special teams
- fire/promote special teams coach and put in tanking coach
- fake punts
- bring in returner who is careless with the ball e.g. lucky and let him have fun
- special team formations and player selection, particularly remove DB starters from special teams. increase chance for opponent big play by using more backup lineman and less DBs.
- run the ball out of the end zone more during kickoffs
2) use any reasonable excuse to IR players and bring in inferior replacements
3) play selection
- go on 4th down
- focus on young player development without risking dak - including releasing/ir certain expiring contract players
- have an honest talk with moore
- dont waste zeke and rest him often
- find any excuse to play moore or a rookie qb and have them throw to the middle of the field
- run the ball more in 2 minute drills and not with zeke
4) telegraph defense and figure out way to give away defensive calls
5) let garrett manage the clock

so you want to promote losing and sucking in the organization. you want to promote a culture of losing., how are you going to handle Dak, Dez, Witten, Williams, the OL and how they play? you want to fire a coach for doing a good job, find a sucky coach to replace him? what message does that send to the team? what culture are you going to set in.
\and if you start tanking, are you going to fire the coach at the end of the season? are you going to blame him for the losses? afterall you asked him to suck it.....

of all your posts, this angle, this one is absolutely stupid. sorry, not name calling, but I searched and couldn't find another word. its the dumbest thing I have ever heard..... you want the team to tank it, yet they are loaded with talent. so instead of keep pushing forward, you want to suck and then go rebuild. instead of lets say, trade everything to move up to top 10 and grab a top 10 RDE.....or perhaps, lets just suck to get top 10 pick and pick a RDE...one single player, you want to blow it up after sucking..

with that response...you absolutely showed you have no leadership skills. I am glad you are not in the army....otherwise you would kill all the soldiers because you didn't believe in them so you can go back and find better soldiers.....

absurdity at its worst.

 

[John813]

I like both the 4-3 and 3-4. Both definitely have their strengths and weaknesses, especially when factoring in the style the D.C. likes to run. There are quite a few variants of both schemes. Especially with the talent levels the coaches have to work with in a salary cap era and the draft picks the teams are given.

My main issue with switching would be the 3-4 years it would take to potentially have a defense that is full of guys that can effectively play the 3-4. With the front office taking the stance of building through the draft, and retaining our own, it will take years to make the switch effectively. The switch from the 3-4 to the 4-3 took away Romos last prime years. The switch back will eat away Daks and Zekes rookie contracts and the benefit of having two studs for around 5-6 million a year. Not to mention the team has enough talent on offense to miss out on the true impace pass rushers for either the 4-3/3-4.

If the defense fails again to impress or be more than serviceable this year, then I would rather bring in another 4-3 D.C.

 

[waldoputty]

Throw the ball on 3rd and short instead of handing it to Zeke.....Oh, wait. Lol

i would not suggest tanking by making dak fail.
that would be counterproductive.
i would focus on tanking the special teams first and defense second.

 

[waldoputty]

I think the approach you have taken makes things more complicated.

On the one hand, you say there is no way we know how tapper, taco and Collins will do. yet we have evidence on how Collins can do, given his last year's performance. yet you dismiss that and claim he could be worse, we just don't know...

yet, you also put Collins, taco and Crawford as DL in a 3-4 and tapper as ROLB and claim that 's better. yet you have no idea how they would do in a 3-4. Taco never played 3-4 DE. Collins never played NT and is not his natural position. you claim Crawford played 3-4 De yet, he sucked at it. tapper has never played ROLB. but in your opinion that is going to work better than the 4-3 they play and have played and in case of Collins having excelled in the 3-tech.

not sure what to make of that......

regarding the second paragraph. you claimed the offense helped the defense. and you claimed that having a great scoring against defense is not important and only pass rush matters. you said NE defense wasn't that good, yet they won the superbowl and stopped one of the best offenses in the league. you have been all over the place with your responses.

and you have yet to answer, why all the other 3-4 defenses outside of Denver and Houston have been average and below average? if 3-4 is such a cure, elixir that heals all defensive issues and so easy to find personnel for the scheme, why aren't 32 teams doing it. why aren't all the 3-4 defenses in the top 15 of the league? why aren't they the best pass rushing teams? you have not filled that caveat in your argument...I think its because it makes your hypothesis fall apart.

the premise of the 3-4 thread was failure. that means collins was not that good or too injury prone.

collins should ideally play DE not NT. that is why 2nd round pick should be a NT and get a cheap NT Fa.

on the offense helping the defense, it is very difficult to extract statistical proof in two variables that are so correlated. none of us have that data and at least i dont have the stats background to do that extraction. this is graduate level stats and not 1st year either.

i cannot answer your 3-4 question about other teams. i never any other team. only the cowboys. beyond you bring in the stats again, i would again say that these stats are very correlated and it is a serious task to disentangle effects from each other. i have had enough stats to know it is hard but not know how to do it.

for amateurs that most of us are, i would think we trust our eyes and our intuition because most of us have watched football for decades and are fanatical about it. that may sound like a cop-out, but that is all we really have. if you use our feelings about last year, does it tell you we had a great DL, a mediocre DL or a bad DL. my eyes tell me that our DL was bad.