Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[waldoputty]

so you want to promote losing and sucking in the organization. you want to promote a culture of losing., how are you going to handle Dak, Dez, Witten, Williams, the OL and how they play? you want to fire a coach for doing a good job, find a sucky coach to replace him? what message does that send to the team? what culture are you going to set in.
\and if you start tanking, are you going to fire the coach at the end of the season? are you going to blame him for the losses? afterall you asked him to suck it.....

of all your posts, this angle, this one is absolutely stupid. sorry, not name calling, but I searched and couldn't find another word. its the dumbest thing I have ever heard..... you want the team to tank it, yet they are loaded with talent. so instead of keep pushing forward, you want to suck and then go rebuild. instead of lets say, trade everything to move up to top 10 and grab a top 10 RDE.....or perhaps, lets just suck to get top 10 pick and pick a RDE...one single player, you want to blow it up after sucking..

with that response...you absolutely showed you have no leadership skills. I am glad you are not in the army....otherwise you would kill all the soldiers because you didn't believe in them so you can go back and find better soldiers.....

absurdity at its worst.

that is a fair point, and my tanking idea focuses on the special teams and the defense. do not want dak to fail.

i dont even know if the special teams coach is doing a good job or not. note that i said fire/promote - so i have thought about how it affects the team.

teams go through hell to get the QB, and most of us should agree the passrusher is the next most difficult position to fill with high quality, followed by the LT.

tanking is practiced regularly in the NBA. perhaps the gains are more immediate there. hope springs external at camp every summer.

 

[waldoputty]

I like both the 4-3 and 3-4. Both definitely have their strengths and weaknesses, especially when factoring in the style the D.C. likes to run. There are quite a few variants of both schemes. Especially with the talent levels the coaches have to work with in a salary cap era and the draft picks the teams are given.

My main issue with switching would be the 3-4 years it would take to potentially have a defense that is full of guys that can effectively play the 3-4. With the front office taking the stance of building through the draft, and retaining our own, it will take years to make the switch effectively. The switch from the 3-4 to the 4-3 took away Romos last prime years. The switch back will eat away Daks and Zekes rookie contracts and the benefit of having two studs for around 5-6 million a year. Not to mention the team has enough talent on offense to miss out on the true impace pass rushers for either the 4-3/3-4.

If the defense fails again to impress or be more than serviceable this year, then I would rather bring in another 4-3 D.C.

the 3-4 i am suggesting can be implemented by (1) having the RDE play standing up (already being tried) and disguising which gap he will attack from (2) using a NT instead of the 1tech and (3) drafting rush OLB early and often.

as stated, the RDE is finally being tried in a standing up position like the seattle 4-3 LEO. i am just saying to have him move around different gaps and mostly away from the LT.

many of us would prefer a NT-sized 1tech so that is no big innovation and done by other 4-3 teams.

finally draft the rush OLB may be a lot more doable than DE. for example, bengals 4th round OLB is having a good camp and some on this board wish they had him.

having a RDE shift to rush LB during the snap and moving jaylon and new OLB in attack positions in different gaps would cause havoc with the offense. zimmer's double-a gap blitz would be a good look, but with the RDE being one of those in the double-a gap, etc.

i am suggesting the 3-4 for obvious and very obvious passing downs. this would mean forcing a rush, forcing the RB to step behind, etc. would be a win for the scheme.

this 3-4 formation can be shifted from the 4-3 DURING the snap count. and i am not suggesting that the 4-3 would be eliminated. we played 4-3, 3-4, 4-2-5 etc. last season. the more uncertainty the better for the chess game with the offense.

 

[waldoputty]

Thanks.

I also want to spend some time reviewing Beasley because I do agree with the part of your premise that the defense needs to add some elements of surprise. They did try a few snaps with Wilber pass rushing as an SLB but he's just not a very good pass rusher. There were rumors in training camp that they might occasionally use Moore as a LB, but I think the media just saw him standing up and thought he was playing LB when in reality he was playing as a stand-up DE.

Part of the reason that Bosa had so much success is that he played as a 3-4 DE and they sometimes overloaded that side with him and their top pass rushing OLB side-by-side.

x, i viewed some videos. seems like they use a DT sometimes to keep the RT occupied and beasley seems to speed around the RT other times.
did i miss anything?

problem is we dont have the player.
atlanta could be more scary now that they have the RDE in takk and poe in the middle to draw more double teams
ugg

 

[Toruk_Makto]

you probably have to make a decision beyond week 11 - say week 8.
again, it is not out of contention but realizing you cannot beat the top 2 teams like new england.

Football is a lottery in the playoffs. Your goal should be to make the playoffs. Imagine if those Giants superbowl teams had thought the way you did. "Hey we can't beat that New England juggernaut in the AFC. We should tank..."

we have a harder schedule next year and most expect less wins.

Most expect less wins because projecting 13 wins for anyone is not something that happens. Not even the Patriots have that type of expectation. Also the harder schedule thing is a myth.

learn from San Diego Padres and 76ers from 3 years ago.

Baseball and basketball are not like football. In football the playoffs are single elimination. In baseball and basketball you play playoff series. You are much more likely to get a shock result in football than basketball and baseball. This changes the calculus. Also...and especially true for basketball...a single player can transform a franchise in a way that a single football player cannot. Not even a QB can have an impact on a franchise that a single guy like Lebron can. See: Brees, Drew.

This means it's more feasible to tank in basketball than it is in football. I am a proponent of being the 76ers and not being the Hornets (or Mavericks).

In essence what i'm saying is you're making a pretty massive logical fallacy comparing different sports with different structures with different individual player impacts which influences strategy. The closest (accidental) comparison to the 76ers are the Browns. How has that worked out?

1) find ways to lose the ball a couple times a game particularly on special teams
- fire/promote special teams coach and put in tanking coach

What is a tanking coach?

- fake punts

Teams don't go for it on 4th down enough. This could lead to wins just as likely as not. Also, coaches take blame for aggressive decisions that don't work. And coaches like to stay employed.

- bring in returner who is careless with the ball e.g. lucky and let him have fun

Why are you rostering a guy who is a returner who is careless with the ball? Presumably you were trying to win for most of the season before you started to "tank"

- special team formations and player selection, particularly remove DB starters from special teams. increase chance for opponent big play by using more backup lineman and less DBs.

Constraints of 53 man roster you keep forgetting about.

- run the ball out of the end zone more during kickoffs

Maybe lose a few yards? Or break a long run for a TD? Or no impact more likely.

2) use any reasonable excuse to IR players and bring in inferior replacements

Yes ruining your reputation around the league is certainly a recipe for future long-term success when you want to go into the free agency market.

3) play selection
- go on 4th down
- focus on young player development without risking dak - including releasing/ir certain expiring contract players
- have an honest talk with moore
- dont waste zeke and rest him often
- find any excuse to play moore or a rookie qb and have them throw to the middle of the field
- run the ball more in 2 minute drills and not with zeke
4) telegraph defense and figure out way to give away defensive calls
5) let garrett manage the clock

I'm going to stop now but a lot of this other stuff just doesn't make sense. What you're essentially saying is rest guys playing for their livelihoods and do other things like go on 4th down which teams should be doing more!

This is all silly. I don't think you really understand the game or team management or roster management.

 

[waldoputty]

Football is a lottery in the playoffs. Your goal should be to make the playoffs. Imagine if those Giants superbowl teams had thought the way you did. "Hey we can't beat that New England juggernaut in the AFC. We should tank..."

Most expect less wins because projecting 13 wins for anyone is not something that happens. Not even the Patriots have that type of expectation. Also the harder schedule thing is a myth.

Baseball and basketball are not like football. In football the playoffs are single elimination. In baseball and basketball you play playoff series. You are much more likely to get a shock result in football than basketball and baseball. This changes the calculus. Also...and especially true for basketball...a single player can transform a franchise in a way that a single football player cannot. Not even a QB can have an impact on a franchise that a single guy like Lebron can. See: Brees, Drew.

This means it's more feasible to tank in basketball than it is in football. I am a proponent of being the 76ers and not being the Hornets (or Mavericks).

In essence what i'm saying is you're making a pretty massive logical fallacy comparing different sports with different structures with different individual player impacts which influences strategy. The closest (accidental) comparison to the 76ers are the Browns. How has that worked out?

What is a tanking coach?

Teams don't go for it on 4th down enough. This could lead to wins just as likely as not. Also, coaches take blame for aggressive decisions that don't work. And coaches like to stay employed.

Why are you rostering a guy who is a returner who is careless with the ball? Presumably you were trying to win for most of the season before you started to "tank"

Constraints of 53 man roster you keep forgetting about.

Maybe lose a few yards? Or break a long run for a TD? Or no impact more likely.

Yes ruining your reputation around the league is certainly a recipe for future long-term success when you want to go into the free agency market.

I'm going to stop now but a lot of this other stuff just doesn't make sense. What you're essentially saying is rest guys playing for their livelihoods and do other things like go on 4th down which teams should be doing more!

This is all silly. I don't think you really understand the game or team management or roster management.

You said there is no way to tank.
I gave you multiple methods.
Dont move the goalposts.

yes basketball tanking is a no-brainer.
but it is possible to tank and you gain in draft position, which is real important in trying to nail a pass rusher.

In addition, trade players for draft picks if it made sense

'Tanking coach' is a coach put in to facilitate the tank since you cannot expect the existing coaches to do it (other than HC and may be OC).
The special teams is the easiest place to sabotage.
Just put more backup linemen in, reduce team speed by removing almost every DB, use less than optimal formations, have no starters play (which we often do), and cut the special team aces that are not part of the normal defense.

Giants superbowl teams always had a chance because of their D.
This team, without drastic D improvement, is not built for the playoffs.

Cowboys are rated to have the 2nd most difficult schedule.

How do you roster players that are inferior - wait for injuries and use any reasonable excuse to IR then to stash for next season. bring in either inexperienced youth or just inferior players.

How do you get a crappy returner - see injuries. You can also release expiring contracts or trade them.

Browns may take a big leap this year.

 

[waldoputty]

here is an idea. how about a survey to see what members think of the DL?
i dont know how to create one...
is it championship quality given the offense?
how does it compare to other DLs?
which team has a worse DL?

 

[DeaconBlues]

I know we shouldn't disparage posters, but Waldo is making this difficult.

Tanking is a stupid move, used by perennial bad franchises, no matter the sport. Not to mention the damage to Dallas' reputation.

This thread should be closed for it's own sake.

 

[T-RO]

I clicked into this thread, not knowing the nature of the discussion. I now leave...a lesser man.

 

[ConstantReboot]

x, i viewed some videos. seems like they use a DT sometimes to keep the RT occupied and beasley seems to speed around the RT other times.
did i miss anything?

problem is we dont have the player.
atlanta could be more scary now that they have the RDE in takk and poe in the middle to draw more double teams
ugg

I wish we have gotten Tak and Poe. But I'm glad we got the DBs we wanted in the draft. Frankly, I think our defense will be just fine. Marinelli is finally getting some of the horses he needs to run the defense the way he wants to.

They move Beasley around just like we used D. Ware before.

I doubt we move back to a 3-4 any time soon. Just not feasible. We don't have the personnel, the coaches, and the players.

 

[waldoputty]

I wish we have gotten Tak and Poe. They move Beasley around just like we used D. Ware before.

beasley looks really quick around the corner (4.53 40, very good shuttle and cone)
seems much quicker than tapper (4.59 40 before weight loss, unknown shuttle and cone)
but this is hardly a fair comparison between the 8th pick vs. beginning of the 4th round.

hard to say about the upside of takk vs. taco., which could be hardy.
however speed is speed so he can always contribute using a speed rush whereas taco needs to fight with monster OTs hand-to-hand. if nothing else, seems takk can contribute earlier.
i think hardy contributed as a rookie.
so who knows about taco.

 

[xwalker]

x, i viewed some videos. seems like they use a DT sometimes to keep the RT occupied and beasley seems to speed around the RT other times.
did i miss anything?

problem is we dont have the player.
atlanta could be more scary now that they have the RDE in takk and poe in the middle to draw more double teams
ugg

One of your points was that 240ish type pass rushers are easier to find. The Falcons got 15.5 sacks from 240ish Beasley using him as a 4-3 LB/DE.

The Cowboys could do that with Jaylon.

 

[waldoputty]

One of your points was that 240ish type pass rushers are easier to find. The Falcons got 15.5 sacks from 240ish Beasley using him as a 4-3 LB/DE.

The Cowboys could do that with Jaylon.

true, but hard to put all the eggs in jaylon this season.
and i am a huge fan of jaylon.
it is a lot to ask of jaylon to be beasley and kuechly at the same time.

 

[dallasdave]

Throw the ball on 3rd and short instead of handing it to Zeke.....Oh, wait. Lol

 

[dallasdave]

 

[waldoputty]

dave, u r not allowed to have so much fun
no butter for u

 

[waldoputty]

You said it right, you the man Corso

corso is a cool guy.
he probably gets all the girls in a party.
wonder if he is naughty like coach

 

[waldoputty]

One of your points was that 240ish type pass rushers are easier to find. The Falcons got 15.5 sacks from 240ish Beasley using him as a 4-3 LB/DE.

The Cowboys could do that with Jaylon.

furthermore, xwalker, you are basically saying jaylon is going to be the speed rusher that we did not draft.
may be you should post a thread based on this.
it is a reasonable plan assuming jaylon stays healthy (knock).

i guess you would want jaylon to come from the strong side outside of the TE like beasley a lot of times.
in the 3-4 i suggested, would really like a tapper type to come off the RDE position during the snap count and threaten another gap like an a-gap while jaylon and another LB threaten the other gaps. and they could be hopping around the different gaps trying to force the QB to react and change protection schemes/go max protect etc.

with DBs in a zone behind, they could all out blitz, blitz 1, blitz 2 or even drop back after scaring the QB to move assets into pass protect like the RB and the TE.

 

[Nightman]

One of your points was that 240ish type pass rushers are easier to find. The Falcons got 15.5 sacks from 240ish Beasley using him as a 4-3 LB/DE.

The Cowboys could do that with Jaylon.

The main reason the 34 doesn't work here is we have been horrible at blitzing

Sean Lee in not very good at it and we always seem to give it away too early and get stoned too often

I know the 34 is not really a blitz but the idea is to disguise who is coming and who is covering

We have no creep to our D..... maybe Jaylon can change that but we don't need a switch to 34 to find out

 

[Beats_By_Zeke]

This thread will be deleted.
6 pages later.... lmao

 

[Trouty]

This thread will be deleted.
6 pages later.... lmao

You just never know...

Welcome to CowboysZone: Any thread is fair game!