Texas Rangers Thread

[YosemiteSam]

Man the Rangers just straight up suck right now. If pitching isn't killing them they aren't hitting.

 

[Stautner]

Man the Rangers just straight up suck right now. If pitching isn't killing them they aren't hitting.

This is just the Rangers. Last year they really only had one great month and the rest of the season they were just a little above .500. The bats are big, but they are inconsistent.

 

[DIAF]

Looks like all you can talk about is Harrison - which interestingly enough is the one all along I have said I at least understand being skeptical of - nevertheless you somehow were able to convince yourself that it was a fair comment to suggest I might think he is going to win several Cy Youngs.

Of course even with Harrison your argument was puzzling - you condemned him as a starter in large part because his early projection was to be a No. 3 starter at best, as if that were a ngative. Hell, he could fall short of that projection and still be a valuable starter on a pitching staff, so the argument made no sense.

As for Ogando, you are backpeddling fast. In this thread you have had him as a guy who would implode as a starter to a guy with no pedigree to a guy who can't be expected to be a starter because he was initially projected as a reliever to an ELITE ARM. Somehow I am confused by how a guy with an elite arm can be said to have no pedigree.

Yes, he was rushed to the majors because of his elite arm - therein lies my point. The Rangers aren't placing the limitations on him that you are.

Which, again, leads to my question about how you can have such an unyielding faith in a coaches early projection of a player before a team has a chance to work with him him, yet you have no faith in what the team thinks about the player after they have a chance to work with him.

Apparently coaches are clairvoyant geniuses when the make a projection on a prospect they haven't had a chanced to work with, but become idiots once they work with a player and the projection evolves.

Perhaps the problem lies in your understanding of the word "projection". A "projection" is not intended as a clear and certain pinpointing of what a player can and will do, it is a best guess based on information and perceptions at a particular point in time. Coaches know and accept that projections are far from perfect and are just a starting point, and that the projection may not be the ending point.

You claim now you aren't locking guys into whatever their early projections were but that defies the facts because that is the one argument you have clung to all along.

The "culture shock" argument is a nice touch too. Ogando may have set foot in the US 5-6 years ago, but look at the facts, last year was Ogando's first in a MLB farm system. Your little exaggerations can't change that.

As for CJ, maybe you didn't originally bring him up, but the fact remains that CJ did exactly what you claim Ogando can't do. You are just trying to divert attentiion from that fact. CJ was prjected as a relieve, and he was used as a reliever, and last year when he asked to try out as a starter the Rangers were hesitant, but agree simply because he hadn't worked out so well in the role he was projected to play. Then, at an advanced age for a first time starter, CJ eveloved into an outstanding starter. So get off your diversion about who first mentioned CJ and recognize the fact that CJ is living proof that a guy can do exactly what you claim Ogando cannot.

The backpeddle is nice though.

There was no backpaddle on Ogando - I said from the very start I think his implosion will be because he's probably not cut out to be a starter - he throws hard, only has two good pitches, and can get pretty wild. I have no faith in him as a starting pitcher.

Again with more words in my mouth. I never said projections were set in stone. Projections morph the closer these players get to the majors. Right now, Ogando's was as a back of the bullpen arm. He's not likely to change much, the guy is already 27. He's a known quantity at this point. Also, last year was NOT Ogando's first in a MLB farm system. He spent 2003 and 2004 in Rookie/low A ball in the A's farm system.

As for Harrison, yes, being a #3 starter ceiling isn't exactly a bad thing, but Harrison has been here for 4 years already and isn't even that good.

So, you keep trying to pin a CJ Wilson comment on me, and you keep trying to go back to this notion that I claimed that early initial projections are the only ones that are valid, when in fact the whole time i've been talking about Matt Harrison's projections which MORPHED OVER TIME into a #3 ceiling-more likely back rotation SP.

I don't know why you are so interested in a fight/playing this Gotcha! game, but you could at least not make stuff up about what was said.

 

[Stautner]

There was no backpaddle on Ogando - I said from the very start I think his implosion will be because he's probably not cut out to be a starter - he throws hard, only has two good pitches, and can get pretty wild. I have no faith in him as a starting pitcher.

Again with more words in my mouth. I never said projections were set in stone. Projections morph the closer these players get to the majors. Right now, Ogando's was as a back of the bullpen arm. He's not likely to change much, the guy is already 27. He's a known quantity at this point. Also, last year was NOT Ogando's first in a MLB farm system. He spent 2003 and 2004 in Rookie/low A ball in the A's farm system.

As for Harrison, yes, being a #3 starter ceiling isn't exactly a bad thing, but Harrison has been here for 4 years already and isn't even that good.

So, you keep trying to pin a CJ Wilson comment on me, and you keep trying to go back to this notion that I claimed that early initial projections are the only ones that are valid, when in fact the whole time i've been talking about Matt Harrison's projections which MORPHED OVER TIME into a #3 ceiling-more likely back rotation SP.

I don't know why you are so interested in a fight/playing this Gotcha! game, but you could at least not make stuff up about what was said.

You are boggling mymind.

You talk about how wild he can get but he's only averaging about 2 walks per 9 innings in the major leagues and has a truly outstanding 1.013 WHIP for his career. Even if you look at his Dominican Summer League and brief monor league stats he averaged 2 walks per game and has a tremendous WHIP of 0.913.

Makes you wonder if these "projections" even exist. You have almost entirely hung your argument on "projections" so it is a little hard to buy that your thinknig isn'tt really bound by them.

The next thing is you, again, claim you aren't hanging your hat on these "projections" being set in stone, then in the same sentence you say Ogando is a back of the bullpen arm and unlikely to change. Seems you are hanging prtty hard on "projections" there ... again assuming these projections exist and say what you claim.

QUESTION: You claim that Ogando cannot handle a starting role because the team/scouts already determined that his arm and control wasn't conducive to it ........ SO WHY IS THE TEAM DEFYING THEIR OWN PROJECTION NOW?

I will explain something to you that should help, but I doubt you will pay much attention. Ogando's physical maturity isn't the issue - the ability of his arm to handle a starting role isn't why he was viewed as a reliever to start with. It's because they know that learning how to pitch to major league hitters is much more vital for a starter than a reliever, and Ogando has barely had time to get his feet wet yet. Look what he is doing now, and imagine the possibilities once he actually learns the hitters and learns more about pitching to the best of the best.

By the way, i wonder why you feel an "ELITE ARM" is doomed to never learn another pitch? You have so much faith in coaches's "projections", yet you have no faith in pitching coaches to teach and develop pitchers.

As for CJ, there you go blowing another smoke screen. I said it before, and you keep ignore it because it suits you to do so, but FORGET ABOUT WHO FIRST BROUGHT UP CJ AND JUST UNDERSTAND THE ANALOGY. CJ was thought to be a reliever and a reliever only. This was the belief or years, and the Rangers proved that's what they believed by never giving him a chance to start - and this was with a full development period in both the minors and majors. Finally, at an advanced age for a first time starter, the Rangers gave him a shot and he made the transition and has done is exceptionally well.

Now, tell me, given that (A) CJ also was projected as a reliever, (B) Ogando has a stronger arm than CJ, (C) Ogando has only had a year to work in the Rangers minor/major league system, and (D) Ogando is younger than CJ was when he became a starter, what is it that dooms him to falure when CJ made the switch?

 

[Stautner]

Just found out something i didn't know before. Ogando has only been a pitcher since 2005. Yep, he could still be learning even at age 27.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Just found out something i didn't know before. Ogando has only been a pitcher since 2005. Yep, he could still be learning even at age 27.

When the Rangers found him, he was an outfielder. The Rangers scout (can't remember which) said he threw a laser from the outfield to the pitcher and thought, I want that guy as a pitcher.

Anyway, they didn't say anything and ended up just buying his contract for $12k a year or so later and when they got him they *THEN* ask him if he would convert to a pitcher. :laugh2:

 

[Stautner]

When the Rangers found him, he was an outfielder. The Rangers scout (can't remember which) said he threw a laser from the outfield to the pitcher and thought, I want that guy as a pitcher.

Anyway, they didn't say anything and ended up just buying his contract for $12k a year or so later and when they got him they *THEN* ask him if he would convert to a pitcher. :laugh2:

It's a hell of a story. 2005 he is signed and converted from OF to pitcher, but for 4 years can't come to the US to enter the farm system, and when he finally does he spends 2 months in the minors before become a key bullpen figure on a team that makes it to the World Series. Next year he is one of the most succesful starting pithchers in basball for the 1st month and a half of the season. It's going to be interesting to see how far he can go.

 

[dback]

Harrison is obviously rattled tonight. Hopefully he can make it at least 5 inning without too much more damage. Tomko is warming up in the bullpen

 

[dback]

3-0 Yankee lead after 2 innings. Harrison did a good job getting out of the bases loaded jam.

 

[DIAF]

You are boggling mymind.

You talk about how wild he can get but he's only averaging about 2 walks per 9 innings in the major leagues and has a truly outstanding 1.013 WHIP for his career. Even if you look at his Dominican Summer League and brief monor league stats he averaged 2 walks per game and has a tremendous WHIP of 0.913.

Makes you wonder if these "projections" even exist. You have almost entirely hung your argument on "projections" so it is a little hard to buy that your thinknig isn'tt really bound by them.

The next thing is you, again, claim you aren't hanging your hat on these "projections" being set in stone, then in the same sentence you say Ogando is a back of the bullpen arm and unlikely to change. Seems you are hanging prtty hard on "projections" there ... again assuming these projections exist and say what you claim.

QUESTION: You claim that Ogando cannot handle a starting role because the team/scouts already determined that his arm and control wasn't conducive to it ........ SO WHY IS THE TEAM DEFYING THEIR OWN PROJECTION NOW?

I will explain something to you that should help, but I doubt you will pay much attention. Ogando's physical maturity isn't the issue - the ability of his arm to handle a starting role isn't why he was viewed as a reliever to start with. It's because they know that learning how to pitch to major league hitters is much more vital for a starter than a reliever, and Ogando has barely had time to get his feet wet yet. Look what he is doing now, and imagine the possibilities once he actually learns the hitters and learns more about pitching to the best of the best.

By the way, i wonder why you feel an "ELITE ARM" is doomed to never learn another pitch? You have so much faith in coaches's "projections", yet you have no faith in pitching coaches to teach and develop pitchers.

As for CJ, there you go blowing another smoke screen. I said it before, and you keep ignore it because it suits you to do so, but FORGET ABOUT WHO FIRST BROUGHT UP CJ AND JUST UNDERSTAND THE ANALOGY. CJ was thought to be a reliever and a reliever only. This was the belief or years, and the Rangers proved that's what they believed by never giving him a chance to start - and this was with a full development period in both the minors and majors. Finally, at an advanced age for a first time starter, the Rangers gave him a shot and he made the transition and has done is exceptionally well.

Now, tell me, given that (A) CJ also was projected as a reliever, (B) Ogando has a stronger arm than CJ, (C) Ogando has only had a year to work in the Rangers minor/major league system, and (D) Ogando is younger than CJ was when he became a starter, what is it that dooms him to falure when CJ made the switch?

No need to get nasty about all of this. Man, somebody desperately loves to argue.

Are you a major league scout? No? Ok then. I will trust the scouts and baseball people over some fan's opinion on some message board. Everything i've stated comes from people that are paid to do this sort of thing. I think you should send your resume to the Rangers scouting department. Maybe you can help 'em out!

On to tonights' game.

Matt Harrison. Matt Harrison. Should go back to the bullpen and never start another game in a Rangers' uniform.

 

[Mrdude108]

Tommy Hunter is coming back soon, if Harrison doesn't step it up we have a more than capable replacement.

 

[DIAF]

hahaha, Harrison made an error that led to an unearned run? Man they should charge that to the pitcher when that happens. Harrison can't even get out of his own way, dang

 

[DIAF]

Rage.

 

[dback]

My hat is off to Matt Harrison, he certainly responded the way you want a starter to respond after a start like that. Equally atrocious to our bullpen lately has been our offense. We just can't hit or just get on base for that matter. The starting pitchers the last few games have been going in to the 7th and 8th innings with 90 pitches or so. Oh well, I am confident this team can overcome this slump, there is still a lot of baseball to play.

 

[DIAF]

Derek Holland be dealin' tonight

 

[DIAF]

Well, he was dealing. God I hate the Yankees.

 

[cowboyeric8]

Well, he was dealing. God I hate the Yankees.

At least they pulled it out. Oh its great to see Feliz back, that was nice. And Young is a machine going 4-4, making it look easy lately.

 

[YosemiteSam]

At least they pulled it out. Oh its great to see Feliz back, that was nice. And Young is a machine going 4-4, making it look easy lately.

How about bonbon knocking in three RBIs rofl. :laugh2:

 

[WDN]

How about bonbon knocking in three RBIs rofl. :laugh2:

I dont care what he tells the media. He is feeling the pressure from the Cuban centerfielder that we signed. On the other hand if it makes him play better than I am all for it.

 

[cowboyeric8]

I dont care what he tells the media. He is feeling the pressure from the Cuban centerfielder that we signed. On the other hand if it makes him play better than I am all for it.

He has been playing well lately. Very surprising.

Sabathia vs. Bush (this won't be pretty)