The 3-4 solution

[LocimusPrime]

So help me understand.

Some people think the Charlton pick was necessary because you can't have undersized ends.

Then Mayowa is a solution, while being undersized?

Which is it?

Or is it the case where people are really just grasping at whatever success they can like a log in a raging river?

Benson Mayowa may have got sack numbers but he was hardly a reason any OC stayed awake at night and wondered how on earth he could stop him.

In case you missed it, I was not arguing that undersized players were an issue.

The whole idea about favoring a three man front is the number of options it clears up for rushers and even situational players.

Very 4-3 teams have that luxury. The one team I see is Minnesota who has Hunter coming in and doing it.

Good point. Mayowa and Gregory are both smallish

 

[LocimusPrime]

Sure, of course, a great defense is a pick or two away snd a trade or FA away. Dallas can have a great defense again. Its entirely possible. I expect it.

I'd be happy with a Dline like the Giants have and Landon Collins

 

[LocimusPrime]

This is the 1st 3 sentences of the OP.
Dont twist my words into something it is not.

"We are all hoping Taco plays like Hardy or Bosa.
His physical traits are pretty much equal or in some ways little better.
However, if he does not pan out, what do we do."

Way to keep them on track!

 

[LocimusPrime]

These were my first 3 lines in the OP:
"We are all hoping Taco plays like Hardy or Bosa.
His physical traits are pretty much equal or in some ways little better.
However, if he does not pan out, what do we do."

How much more clear could I be?
If Taco or other man the RDE like a champ, we win.
Of course I am not advocating blowing it up if the defense works and we win the superbowl.

Hey Waldo...what were the first three lines again?

 

[big dog cowboy]

not sold on Taco just yet, but intrigued and hopeful like most others in here...he just seems like another DLaw-type...that isn't necessarily a bad thing....but, if he doesn't pan out, get rid of Marinelli/Garrett/4-3? That is A LOT to consider based on one late first round pick

Ya think?

 

[Hawkeye0202]

But, but he would be undersized.

That is what I keep seeing now.

Exactly.......Ware played ONE year ( last year as Cowboy 2012 ) in his entire career in the 4-3 and was awful.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

Charles Haley had 6 sacks in 92 and 4 in 93. The Cowboys won the Super Bowl both of those years.

Haley get a lot of credit, but that DL was more about depth than top tier talent. They had backups that could have started on many teams (Jimmie Jones, Lett, Chad Hennings). The other starters were solid but not Star players (Maryland, Tony Casillas, Tony Tolbert).

The starting lineup for that 1st Super Bowl:
Tony Tolbert
Russell Maryland
Tony Casillas
Charles Haley - The top "Star" player.
Vinson Smith
Robert Jones
Ken Norton Jr. - One of to "Star" players.
Kevin Smith
Larry Brown
Thomas Everett - At the end of his career.
James Washington[/QUOTE



Sacks were never really Haley's strength .........relentless quarterback pressure was his MO. I don't think was an official stat back then .........

 

[LocimusPrime]

We just need better players and we wouldn't have any "convert to this defense" threads

 

[waldoputty]

not sold on Taco just yet, but intrigued and hopeful like most others in here...he just seems like another DLaw-type...that isn't necessarily a bad thing....but, if he doesn't pan out, get rid of Marinelli/Garrett/4-3? That is A LOT to consider based on one late first round pick

sure, it is a lot to consider.

if taco and others have failed, we have tried and failed to build the Dline for how many years?
my belief from our likely draft slot, it is much easier to draft a very good blitzing LB than a RDE that provides good pressure.
many here have agreed that the war daddy is the toughest thing to acquire other than the franchise QB.
we have the O already and we need an adequate D, not a dominant D.
it seems to be 2018 draft/FA represents a 1-year opportunity to switch to a 3-4 D that utilizes blitzing LBs.

in particular, the pieces to the DL and there other than picking up a NT that can be had AFTER the first round. a FA NT would be far cheaper than a DE.
then pick up a blitzing LB in the 1st round and possibly in FA.
viola you got a decent 3-4 defense that can apply pressure from different LB positions.
it really does not have to be 4 LBs and 3 LBs would do.
with jaylon's speed, it would be almost like 2LBs and 6 DBs.
then you could blitz using jaylon the 1st rounder and/or tapper from LB position instead.
the O would have to worry about the uncertainly regarding which gap would be attacked and possibly overloaded.

again we dont need a top 5 D.
we just need a D that can apply an unpredictable blitz so rodgers would not bring a lawnchair with him on 3-and-long downs.

others have said we can play 3 down and 4 down linemen.
and we can.
again, ALL WE NEED TO PICK UP IN THE DRAFT IS AN OLB IN THE 1st and a NT in the second.
we dont need to swing for the fences for the Gregory types.
we dont need to compromise and take a developmental RDE.
it is NOT as if we did not play 3 DTs, 4DTs or 2DL in passing downs last year.

 

[waldoputty]

Hey Waldo...what were the first three lines again?

lol
i think those who pushed and defended taco are on the defensive because he is not flashing well.
we still have hope and lets all hope that he plays well.

 

[waldoputty]

Exactly.......Ware played ONE year ( last year as Cowboy 2012 ) in his entire career in the 4-3 and was awful.

his body would not hold up in the 4-3.
really wished we kept ryan or brought in another 3-4 D coordinator.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

We are all hoping Taco plays like Hardy or Bosa.
His physical traits are pretty much equal or in some ways little better.

However, if he does not pan out, what do we do.
I think the 3-4 may be the solution.
I would say let marinelli and garrett go (keep the offense/coordinator the same) and go to a blitzing 3-4 and a head coach who is good at game management.

Key advantages:
1. we have most of the players for a 3-4.
2. it is probably easier to draft a Watt OLB type than a top DE.

The transition after the season is surprisingly painless as most of the players are inhouse already:
DT - thornton, Collins, 2nd pick/FA (big 330lb type)
DE - Taco, Irving, Collins, Tcrawford
LOLB - Tapper
ROLB - Jaylon, 1st pick/FA (watt type), Nzeocha
ILB - Jaylon, Lee, Wilson, Nzeocha
DBs - no change

We then draft a LG 3rd round and use the rest of the draft to draft more OLB types.

typical knee jerk reaction after one PRESEASON game, writing off the season based on one players performance....taco didn't dominate in his FIRST EVER NFL game after TWO WEEKS of practice, so he sucks, thus the defense will suck, thus the season is over, thus lets fire everyone, thus lets move back to 3-4.

then fantasy football kicks in and you start to move players around, like lego pieces, claiming in the process that they are 3-4 fit and it takes one draft and one fantasy football, Madden football trade to move up and grab the next Demarcus Ware.

fact is your list doesn't fit a 3-4 defense and it would mean a do over and redrafting several years and dumping players to get to 3-4. its 3-4 year process at best.

Fact is the 5 of the top 10 defenses were 4-3. 5 of the top 10 pass defenses were 4-3. 5 of the top 10 sack teams, were 4-3. so your solution is not really a solution. its a knee jerk reaction after a few beers.

Collins is a 3 technique DT, not a NT. but let your fantasy run wild. thorton is not a NT neither. never was.
all the DEs are small to play DE in 3-4. except maybe Crawford. he is close to being a fit, close, but not really. different position. different techniques. different responsibilities. different styles. but hey, if height and weight is right, it must be a fit...

Jaylon is fast, but not a typical 3-4 OLB...again, fantasy football at work.

typical knee jerk responses were made, when our 3-4 was FAILING and people just moved players around to 4-3, like lego pieces and making claims its an easy transition. fact is it took several years of draft to find the players that fit the 4-3 and still trying to do so.

lastly, your claim that its easier to find rushing OLB for a 3-4 than 4-3 is false. how many dominant 3-4 defenses are there? how many dominant OLBs?

oh, and one more thing. 3-4 is vunerable to the run and as you can see...the NFL is starting to shift back to running the ball, given teams reacted to passing game by trying to go 3-4 to create pressure......the players and positions you listed above, to fit a 3-4, actually don't and would make the front very vunerable against the run...but hey, the height and weight fit....

its ONE PRESEASON GAME..... lets not throw the baby out with the bath water...

 

[waldoputty]

We just need better players and we wouldn't have any "convert to this defense" threads

yea if taco and/or tapper can apply the pressure, our super bowl chances look good in 2017 and beyond.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

again, ALL WE NEED TO PICK UP IN THE DRAFT IS AN OLB IN THE 1st and a NT in the second.

They ain't goin there Waldo.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

They have to be more effective when they blitz, at least until they find that elite DE that everyone wants.

Jaylon could be that elite blitzing LB if he can ever get back to his college level of ability.

There was a rumor they might experiment with Moore at SLB for the purpose of having an extra pass rusher on the field.

Colllins at 3-tech could be a key player. He was quite good last year as a rookie that missed training camp. Marinelli has not had a consistent pass rushing threat at 3-tech since he's been here. McClain/Crawford and some others flashed at the position but nobody has had consistent success.

Walker you just answered the whole point of my argument ........we've been looking for that ELITE DE since Ware left. Unless you're willing to spend a boatload of $$$ or drafting in the top 10 or hit a stroke of luck, it's damn near impossible.

 

[LocimusPrime]

yea if taco and/or tapper can apply the pressure, our super bowl chances look good in 2017 and beyond.

I don't think they are the solution, but it's till early. I think our war daddy isn't on the team yet. I could be wrong, JMO

Hey why does taco have his eyes closed on this play

 

[LocimusPrime]

We just need to spend the cash and get some DEs. We are terrible are drafting and developing them.

 

[waldoputty]

typical knee jerk reaction after one PRESEASON game, writing off the season based on one players performance....taco didn't dominate in his FIRST EVER NFL game after TWO WEEKS of practice, so he sucks, thus the defense will suck, thus the season is over, thus lets fire everyone, thus lets move back to 3-4.

then fantasy football kicks in and you start to move players around, like lego pieces, claiming in the process that they are 3-4 fit and it take one draft and one fantasy football, Madden football trade to move up and grab the next Demarcus Ware.

fact is your list doesn't fit a 3-4 defense and it would mean a do over and redrafting several years and dumping players to get to 3-4. its 3-4 year process at best.

Collins is a 3 technique DT, not a NT. but let your fantasy run wild. thorton is not a NT neither. never was.
all the DEs are small to play DE in 3-4. except maybe Crawford. he is close to being a fit, close, but not really. different position. different techniques. different responsibilities. different styles. but hey, if height and weight is right, it must be a fit...

Jaylon is fast, but not a typical 3-4 OLB...again, fantasy football at work.

typical knee jerk responses were made, when our 3-4 was FAILING and people just moved players around to 4-3, like lego pieces and making claims its an easy transition. fact is it took several years of draft to find the players that fit the 4-3 and still trying to do so.

lastly, your claim that its easier to find rushing OLB for a 3-4 than 4-3 is false. how many dominant 3-4 defenses are there? how many dominant OLBs?

oh, and one more thing. 3-4 is vunerable to the run and as you can see...the NFL is starting to shift back to running the ball, given teams reacted to passing game by trying to go 3-4 to create pressure......the players and positions you listed above, to fit a 3-4, actually don't and would make the front very vunerable against the run...but hey, the height and weight fit....

its ONE PRESEASON GAME..... lets not throw the baby out with the bath water...

1) thornton and crawford can and have played DE in 3-4.
collins is similar size.
taco is 280 already and many said he needs to be weight/strength.
furthermore, many have already said he plays better inside.

2) getting a NT is much much easier than getting a passrush NT in the draft. and much much cheaper in FA.

3) alexander provided a chart of the top pass rushers and 2/3 of them are OLBs.
fuzzy claim it is wrong, but has proved no proof.
it just looks like a simple listing from an internet site to me, so hard to belief it is wrong.

4) drafting an OLB - i already provided a listing of the drafted pressure players in 2016 draft. the RDE candidates were grabbed first.

5) i actually want to put jaylon as an ILB in the 3-4 and draft/sign the pass rush OLB.
there you go for 2018 offseason:
draft pick #1 - OLB
draft pick #2 - NT
draft pick #3 - OG
FA - if we sign an OLB, transition is done. NT would be nice if price is right.

6) in the 2016 free agency, what was available for high-sack players that were not franchised?
JPP was franchised and so was Chandler Jones.
who was not franchised? - Nick Perry.
what does Perry play - OLB.

you need to learn to think out of the box.

 

[waldoputty]

I don't think they are the solution, but it's till early. I think our war daddy isn't on the team yet. I could be wrong, JMO

Hey why does taco have his eyes closed on this play

i am not going to rag on taco until he has gone through camp and played a bit.
it was clearly stated in the draft he needed to learn moves.
and he could be thinking too much.
there is still hope.
we can all hope.
but come the end of season and if the DL does not perform, marinelli and his system need to go.
they had plenty of time.

however, we should keep track of how taco performs compared to harris, takk and watt, as well as basham, willis and a couple edge rushers in the draft.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

no they said watt did not fit the system because he was a LB and they wanted a DE

Here's Stephen Jones reason why Taco was drafted over Watt:





So why didn't Dallas go with the sexier and more popular choice of Watt over Charlton?

Executive Vice President of Player Personnel Stephen Jones explained what the thought process was, and it has nothing to do with doubting Watt.

"I would not bet against T.J. Watt," said Jones on 105.3FM The Fan following the Day One selection, via The Dallas Morning News. "Everything about him is plus, plus, plus. The toughest thing for him with us is just there are some risks there because you don't see it on tape as much of him putting his hand in the ground. Whenever we're grading players, if there's a projection, there's a discount there if you don't see it.

"It doesn't mean that they're not going to do it and do it well."

That said, Jones wishes Watt the best but wants to be clear they had a stronger attraction to what Charlton brought to the table.

And he has zero regrets as he praises his new rookie pass rusher.

"Certainly if we were going to bet on a player and his football character as well as his off-the-field character, you're going to line up with T.J. Watt and bet on him," Jones said. "It just so happens we felt a little more comfortable with Taco because you see him do it every day on the film. You see it every play and he's doing it against big-time competition, as T.J. was as well, obviously the same conference. You just see it there and you feel more comfortable with Taco