The 3-4 solution

waldoputty

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So basically we would have to blow up the whole defense because of 1 player?


we have most of the players needed for a 3-4.
get a fat NT.

the point is it is probably much more possible to draft a good OLB vs. a good DE.
lord we have been trying for the last 4 years and failed.
lets hope taco and tapper break that trend.
 

darthseinfeld

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There is nothing, zero, zilch, nada that suggests the 4-3 is superior to the 3-4.

What the problem is the ability to find pass rushers. That is the one thing that needs to be considered and weighed when deciding how the scheme should run. Not hurt feelings over what happened with Rob Ryan. He was horrific and has been proven horrific. It was not the 3-4, it was him. And if people want to run down the 3-4 because it did not pay off in spades with Parcells or Phillips, I give you the Dave Campo era and even the fruitless signing of Marcellus Wiley, looking for that great pass rusher.

Plain and simple, the better pass rushers and the more plentiful are undersized OLB types.

If you want this 4-3 juggernaut Bruce Smith type or even a Mario Williams type for that matter means you are drafting in the top ten to get one. And as we saw with Williams, well, that did not do much to turn the flow for the Texans.

Undersized pass rushers almost always carry the label and are picked apart, because everyone is looking for the 6-5, 270 lb. college player who can step into the pros and dominate.

You better be really bad to get a shot at one that fits the preferred role.

Otherwise you will end up drafting the Greg Ellis and Ebenezer Ekubans over the period of two to three years and end up with nothing.

Quality pass rushers do not fit the prototype that we took in Charlton. It is just that simple.

The colleges simply are not growing them big like they used to.

The other alternative is to have a hybrid system like many teams use. The schemes are variant and a good mind can manufacture pressure instead of wish upon a star you get that one stud pass rusher which basically like a unicorn at this stage. You can look up and down the line at the better sack artists in this league. They are not the prototypical. They also went to teams that used either the 3-4 or a flex scheme that utlitzed the talent coming from the college game.

It requires a creative defensive mind, and certainly is not someone like Rod Marinelli who can do just enough to get by but will need perfect fits to make the system work.

That is because he does not believe in generating pressure in any other way than the front four. You can draft all the zone corners you want and it won't matter. You can also use the excuse of picking late in the round to dismiss the fact you are trying to get blood out of a turnip looking for the 4-3 War Daddy.
Just an FYI Bruce Smith played practically his whole career as a 3-4 5 Tech
 

darthseinfeld

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we have most of the players needed for a 3-4.
get a fat NT.

the point is it is probably much more possible to draft a good OLB vs. a good DE.
lord we have been trying for the last 4 years and failed.
lets hope taco and tapper break that trend.
But if want to run a true 3-4 ( meaning run 3 man in subs) we dont have the players to run a good 3-4. The talent we have would be awful in a 3-4. You switch to a 3-4 when its rebuild time.
 

darthseinfeld

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Here's a question ( or two lol ) for posters bashing the OP ideal. What's the answer to getting more sacks or qb pressures in 4-3 / Tampa 2 scheme? We've not seen high level pass rush or pressure since 2012, a year BEFORE DeMarcus Ware was released ( last year under the 3-4 ). Not sure how many remember, but according to Jason Garrett, we fired Rob Ryan and brought in Monte Kiffin and Tampa 2 before the 2012 season for one reason ....... create more turnovers. Ware struggled his first and only year in the 4-3 and of course was released. Fast forward to 2014 playoff loss against the Packers ( one-legged Rogers ate defense alive ) and note Stephen Jones even said immediately after the loss, finding a pass rusher will be a top priority for 2015. Hell Jerry even admitted in an article earlier this year, finding an ELITE pass rusher is hard coz they're hard to draft ( outside top 10 picks ) and teams do not trade or release the good ones. As we all know -and mention by the OP- one main reason Parcell favored the 3-4 they are easier to draft. If you go back look at last pre-draft evaluations, most of the pass rush specialist were in the 250ish range ( exact range for Ware and Von Miller ). Without putting words in the OP mouth, I think the main point(s) he's trying to make is we are now in 2017, FOUR YEARS into the 4-3 /Tampa 2 and are no closer to having the answer than before we left the 3-4. .

Many posters say a move back ISN'T the answer and I tend to agree, somewhat but then what is? Trade? Pressing your luck drafting one at the bottom of earlier rounds? Remember any top 4-3 DE is coming off the board within the first 10 picks, a range we hope to be nowhere near. Free agency? ( highly unlikely to find an elite and if we do, I don't see Stephen spending $75-100M to sign one).

The point is many are dismissing even the thought what the OP is saying but it's a fact this defense has struggled to find consistent sacks and pressure since leaving the 3-4. Of course not saying it CAN'T be done. Just for whatever reason, coaches and FO have struggled to fix this unit.
The awnser is simply adding and developing more talent. We have had a few D centered drafts recently and the talent from them needs to be developed. If you realize you have failed at certain points, then they need to go out and add a top talent via FA. With Romo off the books next year, 2018 could be a year they are actually willing to spend in FA
 

darthseinfeld

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Both the 4-3 or 3-4 will work, but it does depend on the TYPE of system you run and the coaching staff behind it.

I simply don't think we have the defensive coaching staff right now. Rod does enough to get by, where people can point to a few specific areas on defense and say "Hey look where they were ranked. Pretty good, aye?" - But was anyone really surprised when it was our defense that ended our season last year? That in a critical moment, we allowed Rodgers to make a throw that will be part of his all-time highlight reel? I sure as hell wasn't. And I'll go as far as to say, we'll be in a similar situations more than a few times this season and an offensive coordinator will outsmart Rod.

I don't want to shift to a new scheme, I want us to bring in a better DC for the 4-3. I don't want another 2013 debacle.
I see our defense as good enough to stop average to marginally good teams, but wont stop very good teams or good teams led by great players ( as was the case with GB)
 

waldoputty

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But if want to run a true 3-4 ( meaning run 3 man in subs) we dont have the players to run a good 3-4. The talent we have would be awful in a 3-4. You switch to a 3-4 when its rebuild time.

if we still cannot do it, i would argue it is time.

there is no reason why we cannot play 4-3 some of the time.
for the 3-4 (or 3-3) we have the DEs for it.
we get a fat NT or 2 - say round 2 and a cheap one in FA.
jaylon and lee can man the ILB
play tapper as one olb and draft/sign another.
you then got jaylon, the new olb and tapper that CAN blitz from any gap.

again, i dont think we need a top 5 D.
we need a D that will stop a 3-and-long (not a running down) much better than what we have had.

arent you sick of watching those 10 second drop backs in the 2 minute offense against us?

let say brady or rodgers have a 3 and 15, we have the option for 2DL or 3DL and blitz any number of LBs such as Jaylon, Tapper and the new OLB.
they can come from any gap.
or they could all drop back.
or only blitz tapper since he would probably be a bad pass defender
 

darthseinfeld

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As a wise man once said (Well @bkight13 said a few minutes ago), NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!

When the Cowboys played the 3-4 there were constant threads of people wanting to switch back to the 4-3.

Parcells claimed finding 3-4 OLBs was easier, but in reality that turned out to be false.

A 3-4 OLB, especially the Strong Side OLB, has to be a 3-tool players. He must be good against the run, good in coverage and good as a pass rusher. Anthony Spencer turned out to be that guy. Fans didn't like him because he was not a top pass rusher, but they didn't really understand the Strong Side OLB vs Weak Side OLB in those defenses. The Cowboys couldn't find anyone else to do that job and ended up Franchising Spencer 2 times consecutively. They had a guy, Victor Butler, that was a decent pass rusher, but he couldn't handle replacing Spencer because he was far interior in pass coverage and run defense and would get confused in regards to when he need to cover, rush or read-and-react against the run.

Finding a guy that can cover and play the run, especially on the strong side is almost mutually exclusive.

Marinelli's defense is a great compromise (At least in theory) between a traditional 4-3 and the 3-4. He shifts the line to the right which puts the SDE head up on the OT but moves the WDE out away from the OT more like a 3-4 OLB. This allows for smaller DEs on the right side. It makes the RDE and the 3-tech DT the top pass rushers instead of both DEs. The SDE is little more like a 3-4 DE; whereas, the WDE is more like a 3-4 OLB. The big difference is that the DEs don't have to play coverage. It's much easier to find a SDE that can play the run than to find a 3-4 SLB that can play the run and play in coverage.

The Cowboys got 6 sacks from Mayowa (6-3, 240) but he likely wouldn't play in the Giants version of the 4-3 when their DEs and DTs are more evenly balanced in their alignments relative to the Center. They need bigger DEs on the right side than the Cowboys need on the right side.

In addition to all of the above, I hate the concept of switching schemes. You've spent years teaching players one scheme and trying to acquire players for that scheme. Now you're throwing all of that away and starting over.

I will concede that Watt might be that Anthony Spencer type 3-4 OLB that is a 3-tool player, but he was a 1st round pick so it's not as if he was easy to acquire.

Another issue with the 3-4 is that on obvious passing downs, they play a 4-man line like a 4-3 defense except their in Nickel which just like a 4-3 in Nickel is technically a 4-2-5 defense. That means player have to basically learn two positions and it means you carry an NT and backup NT that never play in the Nickel defense. The 3-4 alignment is a run defense alignment. It does allow for some deception in terms of which OLB rushes, but as mentioned before, 3-4 teams don't use a 3-4 in obvious passing situations.

The ILBs in a 3-4 need to be bigger because they have to take on more blocks from OLinemen. That means they are on average not as good in coverage as 4-3 LBs.

Either scheme can work, but it is FALSE to say that it's easier to find players for the 3-4.

I would like for Marinelli to mix in some 3-4 concepts on occasion which they did a little with Demontre Moore playing as a stand-up DE on several snaps in the HOF game.

Other things you can do to "trick-up" a 4-3 is to get a pass-rushing SLB. The Falcons do it with Vic Beasley (15.5 sacks in 2016). The Broncos did it originally with Von Miller. The Seahawks did it with Bruce Irving who is now in that role with the Raiders. One of the LBs leaves the field in the Nickel so it's a natural fit for that pass-rushing LB to move to DE in the Nickel. Jaylon would be this player is he gets back to 100% of his college ability.

Marinelli has also "tricked up" things using the 3-man Line. They can go with either 2 or 3 LBs in that alignment. Last year they often used extra Safeties when they playdc a 3-man line and they had good success with it. Marinelli is more likely to "biltz" from this alignment because he can send a LB or DB and still only have 4 players rushing the passer. This allows for disguising where the pressure is coming from similar to a 3-4, but you don't have the issues with personnel like I've explained above about the 3-4. The Marinelli 3-man line is an inverted 3-4. Instead of the LBs being on the outside with the DL close together on the inside, the outside players are DEs and the interior gaps are covered by LBs with a DL in the middle.

The problem with the Cowboys defense has not been the scheme. The problem has been that much more resources have been invested in the Offense and some of the resources that were invested in the defense have not panned out (Randy Gregory, Claiborne, 50M contract for Carr).
Also dont forget that Marinelli would split the line in reverse at times, putting Hardy in a 6 gap on the right side and having Lawrence rush from the 8 and 9 gap on the left. Hardy was good enough to get pressure and sacks from a 6 gap
 

waldoputty

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The awnser is simply adding and developing more talent. We have had a few D centered drafts recently and the talent from them needs to be developed. If you realize you have failed at certain points, then they need to go out and add a top talent via FA. With Romo off the books next year, 2018 could be a year they are actually willing to spend in FA

yet there may be no FA to be had with Marinelli
FA DEs may not be available again.
FA OLBs dont fit his stupid system.

my frustration is with Marinelli.
tapper and taco may yet turn out to be players.
 

darthseinfeld

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if we still cannot do it, i would argue it is time.

there is no reason why we cannot play 4-3 some of the time.
for the 3-4 (or 3-3) we have the DEs for it.
we get a fat NT or 2 - say round 2 and a cheap one in FA.
jaylon and lee can man the ILB
play tapper as one olb and draft/sign another.
you then got jaylon, the new olb and tapper that CAN blitz from any gap.

again, i dont think we need a top 5 D.
we need a D that will stop a 3-and-long (not a running down) much better than what we have had.

arent you sick of watching those 10 second drop backs in the 2 minute offense against us?

let say brady or rodgers have a 3 and 15, we have the option for 2DL or 3DL and blitz any number of LBs such as Jaylon, Tapper and the new OLB.
they can come from any gap.
or they could all drop back.
or only blitz tapper since he would probably be a bad pass defender
3rd and long we would probably still be in a 4 man line if we ran a 3-4.
 

waldoputty

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3rd and long we would probably still be in a 4 man line if we ran a 3-4.
3 and long i would much rather see the passrushers standing up and able to attack/overload any gaps simultaneously
the uncertainty causes the O much more problem than a set D.
 

darthseinfeld

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3 and long i would much rather see the passrushers standing up and able to attack/overload any gaps simultaneously
the uncertainty causes the O much more problem than a set D.
In a 3 man line, both OLB's rush at the same time very rarely. One is usually responsible for the HB
 

waldoputty

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In a 3 man line, both OLB's rush at the same time very rarely. One is usually responsible for the HB

it is the uncertainty that causes problems for the offense.
jaylon could play ILB and be responsible for the HB.
or there may not even be a HB if it is 3 and long.
who knows.
IF the D is bad again this year, something needs to go.
i say that would be marinelli.

getting the 3-4 personnel allows the D to attack using passrushing personnel that may be easier to draft and/or sign.
there may just not be any FA DEs worth signing like last year.
blue-chip DEs may just not get to the late part of the 1st round.
 

darthseinfeld

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it is the uncertainty that causes problems for the offense.
jaylon could play ILB and be responsible for the HB.
or there may not even be a HB if it is 3 and long.
who knows.
IF the D is bad again this year, something needs to go.
i say that would be marinelli.

getting the 3-4 personnel allows the D to attack using passrushing personnel that may be easier to draft and/or sign.
there may just not be any FA DEs worth signing like last year.
blue-chip DEs may just not get to the late part of the 1st round.
The reason 3-4 teams usually dont run a 3 man line in subs anymore is because leaving one of your top rushers back to cover leaves you at a severe disadvantage VS multiple WR sets.
 

waldoputty

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The reason 3-4 teams usually dont run a 3 man line in subs anymore is because leaving one of your top rushers back to cover leaves you at a severe disadvantage VS multiple WR sets.

well u could rush your top pass rusher or you dont have to.
you have the option.
the uncertainty is the key to making the OL/QB uncomfortable.

you can attack/overload whichever gap you want, or you dont have to.
most of those stunts take too long to get there imo.

with our O, the D does not have to stop them every time.
hit the hell out of the QB a few times to make him nervous early in the game.
 

darthseinfeld

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well u could rush your top pass rusher or you dont have to.
you have the option.
the uncertainty is the key to making the OL/QB uncomfortable.

you can attack/overload whichever gap you want, or you dont have to.
most of those stunts take to get there imo.

with our O, the D does not have to stop them every time.
hit the hell out of the QB a few times to make him nervous early in the game.
That might make marginal QBs uncomfortable. It isn't doing anything to make the guys we are worried about, like Rodgers and Brady, uncomfortable. There is a reason why 3-4 teams play a 4 man line in subs. 3-3 front is a poor formation VS modern NFL subpackages
 

waldoputty

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That might make marginal QBs uncomfortable. It isn't doing anything to make the guys we are worried about, like Rodgers and Brady, uncomfortable. There is a reason why 3-4 teams play a 4 man line in subs. 3-3 front is a poor formation VS modern NFL subpackages

we once had the old QB.
we spent lots of effort to protect him.
now things have reversed.

brady is 40.
if we attack early and often, it would have an effect.
try to knock the other guy out.
put a bounty on him (joking)
take the 15 yard penalty.
we have the crazy offense and CAN afford a shootout.

the blitz LB approach is a more sure way to knock the other guy out (or bother him) than trying to attack from a 4 man line.
overload the A-gap a couple times, that would get a response.

rodgers is younger at 33.
the key is again we can afford to get in a shootout.
blitz like crazy.
so what if they score.
hit the hell out of him especially in the first half.
 

darthseinfeld

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we once had the old QB.
we spent lots of effort to protect him.
now things have reversed.

brady is 40.
if we attack early and often, it would have an effect.
try to knock the other guy out.
put a bounty on him (joking)
take the 15 yard penalty.
we have the crazy offense and CAN afford a shootout.

the blitz LB approach is a more sure way to knock the other guy out (or bother him) than trying to attack from a 4 man line.
overload the A-gap a couple times, that would get a response.

rodgers is younger at 33.
the key is again we can afford to get in a shootout.
blitz like crazy.
so what if they score.
hit the hell out of him especially in the first half.
You do realize the better and more expirienced QBs eat blitzes alive
 

waldoputty

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You do realize the better and more expirienced QBs eat blitzes alive

i will risk getting burnt for hitting the other QB really hard and often.
15 yard penalty included.
how many yards are they going to gained when dealing with e.g. an a-gap overload?
as long as we tackle well.
which is what we are supposed to have drafted this year - right?
 
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