The 3-4 solution

[xwalker]

3 and long i would much rather see the passrushers standing up and able to attack/overload any gaps simultaneously
the uncertainty causes the O much more problem than a set D.

The 3-4 defenses play a 4-man line on 3rd and long. The OLBs play as DEs with the hand down.

 

[xwalker]

3rd and long we would probably still be in a 4 man line if we ran a 3-4.

You appear to understand this issue quite well, but some other people really have no clue about the details involved in each scheme.

As you indicated, 3-4 teams play a 4-man line in obvious passing situations. Those teams themselves obviously don't consider the 3-4 alignment as an advantage from a pass rushing perspective.

 

[waldoputty]

The 3-4 defenses play a 4-man line on 3rd and long. The OLBs play as DEs with the hand down.

what makes that obligatory?

much rather see 3DL or even 2DL on the passing downs.
they have the option to drop 8-9 or blitz with 2-3 LBs.

we actually did play 3DL or even 2DL last year at times on passing downs.
at least that is what i recall.

 

[xwalker]

what makes that obligatory?

much rather see 3DL or even 2DL on the passing downs.
they have the option to drop 8-9 or blitz with 2-3 LBs.

That's how they do it. If 3-4 Defensive Coordinators thought the 3-4 alignment was a superior pass rushing alignment, then they would stay in a 3-4 alignment in obvious passing situations. The fact that they don't should tell you all you need to know.

 

[waldoputty]

That's how they do it. If 3-4 Defensive Coordinators thought the 3-4 alignment was a superior pass rushing alignment, then they would stay in a 3-4 alignment in obvious passing situations. The fact that they don't should tell you all you need to know.

Sounds like Marinelli saying I dont want a big run stuffer.

How well did our 4-3 do in 3 and long last year?
Or are you saying we went to a 3 DL or 2DL front because the 4-3 could not get the job done?

 

[darthseinfeld]

You appear to understand this issue quite well, but some other people really have no clue about the details involved in each scheme.

As you indicated, 3-4 teams play a 4-man line in obvious passing situations. Those teams themselves obviously don't consider the 3-4 alignment as an advantage from a pass rushing perspective.

3-4 was developed initially as a defense geared towards stopping the run. Many brilliant playcallers like Wade Phillips, Marvin Lewis, Dom Capers and others have made modifications that have led to prolific pressure defense. However a 3-4 presents schematic disadvatages that are ruinous in todays NFL.

We provide a good example of this this going back 11 years to 2006 when Greg Ellis tore his achilles and our defense our pass rush became instantly ineffective because all an offense had to do to take Ware out of the game was motion a TE to his side which put him in coverage. The career of Anthony Spencer is another more recent example. When given duties as the main pass rush threat, Spencer came through (late 2009, 2012). However because we always ran a 3-3-5 in sub packages, we rarely were able to rush both Spencer and Ware at the same time. Having Ratliff playing at a Pro Bowl level helped alleviate the disadvantage, but one of our better pass rushers wasnt getting proper rush opportunities. Most (if not all) 3-4 teams have abandoned the 3-3-5.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Sounds like Marinelli saying I dont want a big run stuffer.

How well did our 4-3 do in 3 and long last year?
Or are you saying we went to a 3 DL or 2DL front because the 4-3 could not get the job done?

How well did our 3-4 do in 3rd and long under Ryan?

 

[waldoputty]

How well did our 3-4 do in 3rd and long under Ryan?

did ryan have any players in the end beyond a broken ware?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

How well did our 3-4 do in 3rd and long under Ryan?

Ouch!

Anyone that posts they wish they had Rob Ryan as a defensive coordinator is someone who's BLWAHH!

 

[darthseinfeld]

did ryan have any players in the end beyond a broken ware?

Spencer, Ratliff, Ware, Lee. Thats 4 players that have been Pro Bowlers. Much more then we have now

 

[waldoputty]

3-4 was developed initially as a defense geared towards stopping the run. Many brilliant playcallers like Wade Phillips, Marvin Lewis, Dom Capers and others have made modifications that have led to prolific pressure defense. However a 3-4 presents schematic disadvatages that are ruinous in todays NFL.

We provide a good example of this this going back 11 years to 2006 when Greg Ellis tore his achilles and our defense our pass rush became instantly ineffective because all an offense had to do to take Ware out of the game was motion a TE to his side which put him in coverage. The career of Anthony Spencer is another more recent example. When given duties as the main pass rush threat, Spencer came through (late 2009, 2012). However because we always ran a 3-3-5 in sub packages, we rarely were able to rush both Spencer and Ware at the same time. Having Ratliff playing at a Pro Bowl level helped alleviate the disadvantage, but one of our better pass rushers wasnt getting proper rush opportunities. Most (if not all) 3-4 teams have abandoned the 3-3-5.

all these schemes need to fit the players you have.
my main point is acquiring blitzing LBs is much easier than DEs.
then make your scheme utilize these players.

have them involved in an aggressive attacking fashion.
overload various gaps and dictate the action instead of reacting to what the TE does.
let the zone coverage deal with the receivers and TE.

there are no definites in scheme.
if the DC is stubborn and inflexible like Marinelli, he is most likely an obstacle that needs to be booted.
we still do not have a run stuffing 1tech.
olbs like the GB FA and Watt are ruled out by scheme.
the stated need to project Watt means Marinelli wants the player to adapt to his scheme instead of his scheme adapting to the player's strength.

we shall all see.
if the pass rush makes progress, all is wonderful.
if not, imo a change is needed.
with the contracts in 2018, it is easier to transition to a 3-4 type scheme.
that does not mean you play no 4 DL fronts or other schemes.

 

[waldoputty]

Spencer, Ratliff, Ware, Lee. Thats 4 players that have been Pro Bowlers. Much more then we have now

was Lee not out?
did ratliff not mutinied?
was ware not hurt often?
was spencer not injured?

 

[darthseinfeld]

all these schemes need to fit the players you have.
my main point is acquiring blitzing LBs is much easier than DEs.
then make your scheme utilize these players.

have them involved in an aggressive attacking fashion.
overload various gaps and dictate the action instead of reacting to what the TE does.
let the zone coverage deal with the receivers and TE.

there are no definites in scheme.
if the DC is stubborn and inflexible like Marinelli, he is most likely an obstacle that needs to be booted.
we still do not have a run stuffing 1tech.
olbs like the GB FA and Watt are ruled out by scheme.
the stated need to project Watt means Marinelli wants the player to adapt to his scheme instead of his scheme adapting to the player's strength.

we shall all see.
if the pass rush makes progress, all is wonderful.
if not, imo a change is needed.
with the contracts in 2018, it is easier to transition to a 3-4 type scheme.
that does not mean you play no 4 DL fronts or other schemes.

3-4 linebackers arent "blitzing LB's" they are pass rushers

 

[waldoputty]

Ouch!

Anyone that posts they wish they had Rob Ryan as a defensive coordinator is someone who's BLWAHH!

i rather have ryan than marinelli.
at this point, ryan is not an option after his bar room brawl.

 

[waldoputty]

3-4 linebackers arent "blitzing LB's" they are pass rushers

you want the to put their hands down and play on the line.
i rather see them moving around different gaps and drive the QB nuts.

 

[darthseinfeld]

was Lee not out? He did have injury issues
did ratliff not mutinied? No that happened later
was ware not hurt often? No. He got hurt in 2012. He was healthy in 2012
was spencer not injured? No that was in 2013

Under Ryan

 

[darthseinfeld]

i rather have ryan than marinelli.
at this point, ryan is not an option after his bar room brawl.

/thread

 

[darthseinfeld]

you want the to put their hands down and play on the line.
i rather see them moving around different gaps and drive the QB nuts.

Putting your hand down or standing up has nothing to do with it.

Blitizing and rushing are two completely different things. A blitzer is simply an extra rusher

Stand up 3-4 OLB's are considered pass rushers, not blitzers

 

[waldoputty]

Under Ryan

you can debate how much of this is true:
His defense missed five defensive starters due to injuries and two more key backups.
"I inherited a team that was 31st in the league in defense and made them better," Ryan told ESPNDallas.com's Tim MacMahon. "I (expletive) made them a hell of a lot better. I'll be out of work for like five minutes."
http://www.espn.com/dallas/nfl/stor...an-fired-dallas-cowboys-defensive-coordinator

 

[waldoputty]

Putting your hand down or standing up has nothing to do with it.

Blitizing and rushing are two completely different things. A blitzer is simply an extra rusher

Stand up 3-4 OLB's are considered pass rushers, not blitzers

fine. what i care about is the LBs can rush, move around or drop back.