The 3-4 solution

[xwalker]

3-4 was developed initially as a defense geared towards stopping the run. Many brilliant playcallers like Wade Phillips, Marvin Lewis, Dom Capers and others have made modifications that have led to prolific pressure defense. However a 3-4 presents schematic disadvatages that are ruinous in todays NFL.

We provide a good example of this this going back 11 years to 2006 when Greg Ellis tore his achilles and our defense our pass rush became instantly ineffective because all an offense had to do to take Ware out of the game was motion a TE to his side which put him in coverage. The career of Anthony Spencer is another more recent example. When given duties as the main pass rush threat, Spencer came through (late 2009, 2012). However because we always ran a 3-3-5 in sub packages, we rarely were able to rush both Spencer and Ware at the same time. Having Ratliff playing at a Pro Bowl level helped alleviate the disadvantage, but one of our better pass rushers wasnt getting proper rush opportunities. Most (if not all) 3-4 teams have abandoned the 3-3-5.

I'll admit that before Parcells came here, I always thought the 3-4 was cool in that either OLB could rush which seemed like great concept in theory; however, after Parcells, Wade and RR, I realized that the devil is in the details.

Spencer dropped in coverage 3x more than Ware and played the run in more of a read-and-react style than Ware. They often allowed Ware to abandon run contain by covering for him with an ILB; however, Spencer never got that luxury. The theoretical threat of rushing from either side was more theoretical than practical. A majority of Spencer's pass rushes came from the 4-man line.

Considering that teams are in Nickel more than base these days, the 3-4 alignment seems limited in terms of total number of snaps played in that alignment. I really don't see the point.

With Marinelli's 4-3, the entire DL is shifted to the right which puts the WDE farther out from the OT and allows for smaller players to function there. It also shifts the SDE inside which is why Marinelli ended up going to Crawford in that position after 2 or 3 games last year in order to shut down the run.

I noticed they experimented with some things in the HOF game that I have not seen much of in the past. They sometimes had Moore play from a standing position. Also, they had some snaps where the LDE was far outside, the RDE was more inside and a LB was up on the line next to the RDE. I think they might have used #68 (A DT/DE tweener) at RDE on those alignments.

There are plenty of ways to add in creative elements to the 4-3 without the need to switch to a 3-4.

 

[darthseinfeld]

you can debate how much of this is true:
His defense missed five defensive starters due to injuries and two more key backups.
"I inherited a team that was 31st in the league in defense and made them better," Ryan told ESPNDallas.com's Tim MacMahon. "I (expletive) made them a hell of a lot better. I'll be out of work for like five minutes."
http://www.espn.com/dallas/nfl/stor...an-fired-dallas-cowboys-defensive-coordinator

And look at how his career has gone since then

 

[waldoputty]

I'll admit that before Parcells came here, I always thought the 3-4 was cool in that either OLB could rush which seemed like great concept in theory; however, after Parcells, Wade and RR, I realized that the devil is in the details.

Spencer dropped in coverage 3x more than Ware and played the run in more of a read-and-react style than Ware. They often allowed Ware to abandon run contain by covering for him with an ILB; however, Spencer never got that luxury. The theoretical threat of rushing from either side was more theoretical than practical. A majority of Spencer's pass rushes came from the 4-man line.

Considering that teams are in Nickel more than base these days, the 3-4 alignment seems limited in terms of total number of snaps played in that alignment. I really don't see the point.

With Marinelli's 4-3, the entire DL is shifted to the right which puts the WDE farther out from the OT and allows for smaller players to function there. It also shifts the SDE inside which is why Marinelli ended up going to Crawford in that position after 2 or 3 games last year in order to shut down the run.

I noticed they experimented with some things in the HOF game that I have not seen much of in the past. They sometimes had Moore play from a standing position. Also, they had some snaps where the LDE was far outside, the RDE was more inside and a LB was up on the line next to the RDE. I think they might have used #68 (A DT/DE tweener) at RDE on those alignments.

There are plenty of ways to add in creative elements to the 4-3 without the need to switch to a 3-4.

that just sounds like seattle D?
if taco and tapper do not progress, then we dont have the players for it.
if they progress, then this is moot.

 

[xwalker]

fine. what i care about is the LBs can rush, move around or drop back.

They dropped Taco and Tapper into coverage a few times in the HOF game. They basically gave the TE a hard bump and then followed him in coverage. I think they only needed to carry the TE a few yards before LBs or a Safety picked up the coverage. It's a good way to prevent quick throws on 3rd and medium.

 

[darthseinfeld]

I'll admit that before Parcells came here, I always thought the 3-4 was cool in that either OLB could rush which seemed like great concept in theory; however, after Parcells, Wade and RR, I realized that the devil is in the details.

Spencer dropped in coverage 3x more than Ware and played the run in more of a read-and-react style than Ware. They often allowed Ware to abandon run contain by covering for him with an ILB; however, Spencer never got that luxury. The theoretical threat of rushing from either side was more theoretical than practical. A majority of Spencer's pass rushes came from the 4-man line.

Considering that teams are in Nickel more than base these days, the 3-4 alignment seems limited in terms of total number of snaps played in that alignment. I really don't see the point.

With Marinelli's 4-3, the entire DL is shifted to the right which puts the WDE farther out from the OT and allows for smaller players to function there. It also shifts the SDE inside which is why Marinelli ended up going to Crawford in that position after 2 or 3 games last year in order to shut down the run.

I noticed they experimented with some things in the HOF game that I have not seen much of in the past. They sometimes had Moore play from a standing position. Also, they had some snaps where the LDE was far outside, the RDE was more inside and a LB was up on the line next to the RDE. I think they might have used #68 (A DT/DE tweener) at RDE on those alignments.

There are plenty of ways to add in creative elements to the 4-3 without the need to switch to a 3-4.

Ive honestly thought a guy like Ware is somewhat of a detriment in a 3 man alignment in that you really want your OLB's to be reasonable close to equally effective rushing the QB to create balance. Not gonna happen with a future HOFer and a late first round pick

 

[waldoputty]

And look at how his career has gone since then

i firmly believe the players mostly make the coach.
i much rather play with his attacking scheme than marinelli's bend but not break variant.

 

[xwalker]

that just sounds like seattle D?
if taco and tapper do not progress, then we dont have the players for it.
if they progress, then this is moot.

One of the best pressure defenses in the past couple of of decades was the Jim Johnson 4-3 in Philly.

The Buddy Ryan Eagles and Bears defenses were top pressure defenses. They were both 4-3 defenses.

 

[waldoputty]

One of the best pressure defenses in the past couple of of decades was the Jim Johnson 4-3 in Philly.

The Buddy Ryan Eagles and Bears defenses were top pressure defenses. They were both 4-3 defenses.

we only can dream about having the players that the eagles and bears had.
what i am suggesting is how to make the best of it IF the DL sucks this year and given our likely draft slots.

 

[xwalker]

Ive honestly thought a guy like Ware is somewhat of a detriment in a 3 man alignment in that you really want your OLB's to be reasonable close to equally effective rushing the QB to create balance. Not gonna happen with a future HOFer and a late first round pick

Yes, there were some similarities to the 3-4 with Ware and Marinelli's 4-3. Ware played more like a stand-up DE than an OLB because he rarely dropped in coverage (7% of snaps).

 

[xwalker]

we only can dream about having the players that the eagles and bears had.
what i am suggesting is how to make the best of it IF the DL sucks this year and given our likely draft slots.

You still have to find that pass rusher.

If your concept is that they can find a smaller pass rusher late in the 1st round, then they could just run the Atlanta style 4-3 where Vic Beasley is a 4-3 LB in base but had 15.5 sacks last season. He obviously plays some DE in Nickel, but in base he can line up next to the 4-3 DE and really put stress on the blockers. He only has to play the run as a 4-3 LB, not as a 4-3 DE.

 

[Frozen700]

He will be another Marcus Spears

 

[waldoputty]

You still have to find that pass rusher.

If your concept is that they can find a smaller pass rusher late in the 1st round, then they could just run the Atlanta style 4-3 where Vic Beasley is a 4-3 LB in base but had 15.5 sacks last season. He obviously plays some DE in Nickel, but in base he can line up next to the 4-3 DE and really put stress on the blockers. He only has to play the run as a 4-3 LB, not as a 4-3 DE.

part of it is getting the smaller pass rusher late in the 1st.
but note that they refused to take watt saying that he did not project at DE.
this is instead of using him as an LB where no projection is needed.

the other part is the uncertainty of where the rush is coming without resorting to stunts that often take too long.

the 4-3 does not seem like the way to do it unless you commit at least 2 blitzers.
but then you only have 5 or less left to play zone or whatever coverge.

with 3DL or 2 DL, you could attack different gaps without totally selling out on the pass rush.
would like the flexibility to overload certain gaps while leaving certain OL totally uncovered in 3 and long situations.

 

[xwalker]

part of it is getting the smaller pass rusher late in the 1st.

the other part is the uncertainty of where the rush is coming without resorting to stunts that often take too long.

the 4-3 does not seem like the way to do it unless you commit at least 2 blitzers.
but then you only have 5 or less left to play zone or whatever coverge.

with 3DL or 2 DL, you could attack different gaps without totally selling out on the pass rush.
would like the flexibility certain gaps while leaving certain OL totally uncovered in 3 and long situations.

As I indicated in another post, Jim Johnson created great pressure in his 4-3 defense. One of this methods was the zone-dog where a DL drops into a short zone to cover up for a LB or DB blitzing. The Cowboys showed some of that in the HOF game which they have not done much in the past.

 

[waldoputty]

As I indicated in another post, Jim Johnson created great pressure in his 4-3 defense. One of this methods was the zone-dog where a DL drops into a short zone to cover up for a LB or DB blitzing. The Cowboys showed some of that in the HOF game which they have not done much in the past.

i dont remember anything about jim johnson's D.
i will check it out.

but that highlights a weakness commonly stated for zone blitzes where you put the slow foot lineman into coverage.
if it is 3rd and long, why even bother with the 4th lineman (or may be even the 3rd)
if they decide to run, i would call it a scheme-win for 3rd and long

 

[xwalker]

i dont remember anything about jim johnson's D.
i will check it out.

but that highlights a weakness commonly stated for zone blitzes where you put the slow foot lineman into coverage.
if it is 3rd and long, why even bother with the lineman.
if they decide to run, i would call it a scheme-win for 3rd and long

Jim Johnson was the Eagles DC from 1999–2008. His defenses were often the most difficult that the Cowboys faced each year, especially from a perspective of the QB getting hit/sacked.

If you have LBs and DBs that spend a lot of time practicing blizing, then you can line them up next to a DE and rush both, while the DE on the other side drops into the short zone to make up for the blitzer that is not in coverage. Taco or Tapper could drop into a short zone with no problem. If Jaylon gets back to his college level of ability, they could do many things with him to create pressure. If he had been healthy during the draft and he had said he would only play as a pass rusher, he would still have been a top 10 pick as a pass rusher.

 

[waldoputty]

Jim Johnson was the Eagles DC from 1999–2008. His defenses were often the most difficult that the Cowboys faced each year, especially from a perspective of the QB getting hit/sacked.

If you have LBs and DBs that spend a lot of time practicing blizing, then you can line them up next to a DE and rush both, while the DE on the other side drops into the short zone to make up for the blitzer that is not in coverage. Taco or Tapper could drop into a short zone with no problem. If Jaylon gets back to his college level of ability, they could do many things with him to create pressure. If he had been healthy during the draft and he had said he would only play as a pass rusher, he would still have been a top 10 pick as a pass rusher.

yes but it would be nice to have one more jaylon type passrushers
even a little less like watt
so lets hope taco and tapper are spicy and sexy

 

[Melonfeud]

yes but it would be nice to have one more jaylon type passrushers
even a little less like watt
so lets hope taco and tapper are spicy and sexy

I'd already hit the 'like' while reading and I came to that "spicy & sexy" that's some colorful verbiage,,, " cold,distant and aloof" works pretty good as long as their lethal at their positions,,, spicy and sexy?
Yer' wearing your Mr.Chow party clothes again, huh?

 

[waldoputty]

I'd already hit the 'like' while reading and I came to that "spicy & sexy" that's some colorful verbiage,,, " cold,distant and aloof" works pretty good as long as their lethal at their positions,,, spicy and sexy?
Yer' wearing your Mr.Chow party clothes again, huh?

hey bro
that is General Chow to you!
beggars cannot be choosers
i will settle for hot, cold, spicy, sexy, aloof, whatever
as long as they can hit the QB early, often and with a big thud
would like nothing more than to be the team that sends brady to his retirement (shhh dont tell trouty)

 

[Toruk_Makto]

the most difficult piece in a 4-3 is the RDE.
the most difficult piece in a 3-4 is the OLB

would you not agree it is much easier to get a good passrush OLB than RDE?

if the most difficult pieces to get is filled by pick #1 and FA, then all you have left is NT and the DEs.
thornton could be NT or DE.
tcrawford could be DE
taco can gain the weight/muscle, but i believe ratliff played NT at 300lb.
taco is already 280lb so he is not far from 300lb for the NT.

we have most of the pieces already.
i think it would be much easier and lower-risk to fill OLB/NT in a single draft than trying to get a dominant RDE for a 4-3.

Other than not having any lineman or LBs to play the scheme correctly what a great idea.

 

[waldoputty]

Other than not having any lineman or LBs to play the scheme correctly what a great idea.

please see post 5, 13 and 18 as well as others following.