The 3-4 solution

[jterrell]

to put all this in context.
the team won 13 games.
they have figured out what they needed to do to win games even with a porous defense that made nearly no plays.
play bend but dont break and be efficient on offense.
they spent the off-season adding talent to utilize and maximize this 4-2-5 scheme.

this thread is mindbogglingly dumb.
we should ignore the best finish since 2007 and make a wholesale schematic change on defense...
goofy.

 

[waldoputty]

Taco is not going to give you bang this year brother. Him bombing would push no needles since 1st year DL-men don't make a big impact, generally.

Me no rikey where you be going.

i am hoping he does well.
then this is all moot.
the other hope is tapper.

 

[waldoputty]

to put all this in context.
the team won 13 games.
they have figured out what they needed to do to win games even with a porous defense that made nearly no plays.
play bend but dont break and be efficient on offense.
they spent the off-season adding talent to utilize and maximize this 4-2-5 scheme.

this thread is mindbogglingly dumb.
we should ignore the best finish since 2007 and make a wholesale schematic change on defense...
goofy.

this thread is about changing schemes IF the season failed.
that means the 4-2-5 failed since i doubt our offense would fail.

 

[xwalker]

this thread is about changing schemes IF the season failed.
that means the 4-2-5 failed since i doubt our offense would fail.

The 3-4 defensive teams still use the 4-2-5 in the Nickel.

 

[waldoputty]

The 3-4 defensive teams still use the 4-2-5 in the Nickel.

they can and that is fine.
i am not suggesting we NEVER play with a 4-man front again.

but when your passrush talent is in the LBs, do you still want 4 DL in a 3rd and long?
it is easier to draft the passrush LB than the passrush DL, and i think most of us agree with that.
do we want to be like marinelli who is so inflexible that he rather play his DBs in zone when they are better in man?

 

[Corso]

i am hoping he does well.
then this is all moot.
the other hope is tapper.

Him doing very well this year would be an over-the-moon happening.
Do not count on it and don't try to make team plans around it. Just saying...

 

[waldoputty]

Him doing very well this year would be an over-the-moon happening.
Do not count on it and don't try to make team plans around it. Just saying...

not counting on it.
going to be patiently watching how the team develops.
hope springs eternal every camp, usually

 

[Corso]

not counting on it.
going to be patiently watching how the team develops.
hope springs eternal every camp, usually

The more I look at this team, the more I see it making a big run next year.
The defensive backfield, with all of their new-found talent, still needs time and seasoning to work together and get savvy on these veteran WR's and OC's game-planning them.
Jaylon Smith is going through his rookie year and still getting to 100. Taco needs seasoning and reps for a good year, or 2 also.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least for them to win the East and make a deep run in the playoffs, but I find '18 to be the real beginning of the Years of the Star.
Then we'll be looking back on '16-17 and lamenting how I wasn't around to enjoy it all with y'all.

 

[waldoputty]

The more I look at this team, the more I see it making a big run next year.
The defensive backfield, with all of their new-found talent, still needs time and seasoning to work together and get savvy on these veteran WR's and OC's game-planning them.
Jaylon Smith is going through his rookie year and still getting to 100. Taco needs seasoning and reps for a good year, or 2 also.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least for them to win the East and make a deep run in the playoffs, but I find '18 to be the real beginning of the Years of the Star.
Then we'll be looking back on '16-17 and lamenting how I wasn't around to enjoy it all with y'all.

right, and all i am saying is if this is not our year, tank some and get a better draft pick to make sure 2018 is the year of the star...
we are basically 1 player away.

 

[Corso]

right, and all i am saying is if this is not our year, tank some and get a better draft pick to make sure 2018 is the year of the star...
we are basically 1 player away.

Well, you were also saying to switch to a 3-4, in you OG posts, which I find a bit extreme. This team feel to the one of the worst D's in history switching formations and still hasn't fully recovered.
I'd hate to see that begin again, no matter how many players you say are built for the 3-4 already on the team.

I'd rather find a new 4-3 DC before that gonzo maneuvering.

 

[waldoputty]

Well, you were also saying to switch to a 3-4, in you OG posts, which I find a bit extreme. This team feel to the one of the worst D's in history switching formations and still hasn't fully recovered.
I'd hate to see that begin again, no matter how many players you say are built for the 3-4 already on the team.

I'd rather find a new 4-3 DC before that gonzo maneuvering.

the simple reason for the 3-4 is it is easier to nail the OLB pass rusher than DE pass rusher.
i am not saying never play 4DL again - there is no need to be one or the other.
even marinelli has used 3DL and 2DL fronts.
but when it counts, i think the 3DL front is the one that can get the most pass rush talent from the draft and FA.
furthermore, the LBs can readily move among the gaps while the 4DL fronts depend more on stunts type stuff that take too long to develop.
as xwalker indicated, we are already having a DE standing up in some plays.
so we are already half way there.
just move that guy around and draft a LB passrusher in the first round and a NT in the second round
then in any play, we can select to rush any combination of the DE (as OLB), Jaylon and the 1st round pick from any gap.

 

[xwalker]

right, and all i am saying is if this is not our year, tank some and get a better draft pick to make sure 2018 is the year of the star...
we are basically 1 player away.

The oddest thing about your 3-4 obsession is that the Cowboys don't really have any 3-4 type players on the roster.

Maybe Mayowa at OLB.
Sean Lee, Hitchens, Jaylon are all better run-and-hit than stack-and-shed type LBs.
There is no 3-4 NT.
Taco and Tapper are not good fits in the 3-4. Tapper has speed but not the agility to spend much time in coverage. I don't think Taco can maintain the weight to be a 3-4 DE.
Collins is an emerging star and the 3-4 would limit what he does best and his body type is not really ideal as a 3-4 DE.
I guess Irving an Crawford would be fine in a 3-4, but Irving can can in any scheme and Crawford's too expensive to keep as a 3-4 DE to play the run.
Maybe Jaylon could move to 3-4 OLB but the area where he projects to be the best in the NFL is in pass coverage which he would do far less of as a 3-4 OLB than as a 4-3 LB.

Even if they had 1 player that you could say would be great in a 3-4 and not in a 4-3, then I might understand a tiny bit of you idea, but I just don't see that player.

If you're saying to change schemes to accommodate players that they don't yet have, then I would have to say that is not very smart to put in nicely.

 

[Alexander]

we should ignore the best finish since 2007 and make a wholesale schematic change on defense...
goofy.

Of course you don't make wholesale changes coming off last season.

I don't think that was really the original point.

If this season gets doomed by a lack of a pass rush, yet again, we would be pretty well served to wonder if going Marinelli's way is the best for future years.

The DL is not like the OL, so Dallas cannot just replicate what they did getting a stud offensive line.. All teams want DL and you cannot count on other teams not valuing in the interior.

The one thing that is and has been an issue since Ware was in his prime is the pass rush.

It can be fudged during the regular season. In the playoffs, it cannot.

That has to be, even after spending a pick on Charlton, first and foremost for 2018.

 

[waldoputty]

The oddest thing about your 3-4 obsession is that the Cowboys don't really have any 3-4 type players on the roster.

Maybe Mayowa at OLB.
Sean Lee, Hitchens, Jaylon are all better run-and-hit than stack-and-shed type LBs.
There is no 3-4 NT.
Taco and Tapper are not good fits in the 3-4. Tapper has speed but not the agility to spend much time in coverage. I don't think Taco can maintain the weight to be a 3-4 DE.
Collins is an emerging star and the 3-4 would limit what he does best and his body type is not really ideal as a 3-4 DE.
I guess Irving an Crawford would be fine in a 3-4, but Irving can can in any scheme and Crawford's too expensive to keep as a 3-4 DE to play the run.
Maybe Jaylon could move to 3-4 OLB but the area where he projects to be the best in the NFL is in pass coverage which he would do far less of as a 3-4 OLB than as a 4-3 LB.

Even if they had 1 player that you could say would be great in a 3-4 and not in a 4-3, then I might understand a tiny bit of you idea, but I just don't see that player.

If you're saying to change schemes to accommodate players that they don't yet have, then I would have to say that is not very smart to put in nicely.

my 3-4 obsession comes from what teams did to aikman.

if collins stars, chances are the DL is much improved and no need for a 3-4
though for him to star, he cannot be double too often.
may be you can try him at NT like ratliff was a 300lb NT, not sure.

tapper would be a OLB that would almost always rush
prefer jaylon in ilb not olb but he would be one of the guys that can rush often
if we go to 3-4, i presume taco bulks up to be a 3-4 end - i think we all said he needs to get stronger and he is already 280.
crawford and thorton already played 3-4 DE.
mayowa is a decent olb fit but i think his contract is done after 2017?
hitchens would be gone.
i think lee would be ok as ilb.

i think we are only missing the passrush OLB (1st round / FA) and NT (2nd round / cheap FA).
remember dlaw, mayowa, hitchen are gone after 2017 season.

remember there was no decent FA DE this year and there was 1 FA OLB (perry).
jpp and chandler jones were franchised.

 

[xwalker]

my 3-4 obsession comes from what teams did to aikman.

if collins stars, chances are the DL is much improved and no need for a 3-4
though for him to star, he cannot be double too often.
may be you can try him at NT like ratliff was a 300lb NT, not sure.

tapper would be a OLB that would almost always rush
prefer jaylon in ilb not olb but he would be one of the guys that can rush often
if we go to 3-4, i presume taco bulks up to be a 3-4 end - i think we all said he needs to get stronger and he is already 280.
crawford and thorton already played 3-4 DE.
mayowa is a decent olb fit but i think his contract is done after 2017?
hitchens would be gone.
i think lee would be ok as ilb.

i think we are only missing the passrush OLB (1st round / FA) and NT (2nd round / cheap FA).
remember dlaw, mayowa, hitchen are gone after 2017 season.

remember there was no decent FA DE this year and there was 1 FA OLB (perry).
jpp and chandler jones was franchised.

Why would you want Collins at NT if the goal is to keep him away from double-teams?

Do you understand the position he plays now? 3-tech DT? The design of Marinelli's DL scheme is to keep the 3-tech from facing double-teams. That's why the line is shifted to the right. The 3-tech is between the OT and OG, away from the Center. The OT has to block the DE which leaves the 3-tech one-on-one against the OG.

If the OLB is always going to rush, then he's basically a 4-3 DE.

So the best way to deal with a player (Taco) that you're saying needs to get stronger is to put him at at position that requires stronger players than the position that he is currently playing?

They moved Lee to WLB from MLB to keep him from taking a beating from OLinemen. Both 3-4 ILBs are more like 4-3 MLB so he would be back to taking on blocks from OLinemen which didn't help him stay healthy in the past.

Jaylons' s weakest area when he was 100% healthy was taking on and shedding blocks. He is much more skilled at running around blocks, playing in coverage and pass rushing. Making him a 3-4 ILB forces him to take on more blocks than playing MLB in a 4-3 and gives him less chances to shine as in pass coverage or as a pass rusher.

I see literally Zero players that would benefit from playing in a 3-4.

 

[casmith07]

19 pages on something that will literally not happen.

Must be the Zone during the off-season.

 

[links18]

The 3-4 is a communist defense.

I am all for it then...

 

[LocimusPrime]

 

[Corso]

Ha ha ha! Now that is pretty funny.

 

[waldoputty]

Why would you want Collins at NT if the goal is to keep him away from double-teams?

Do you understand the position he plays now? 3-tech DT? The design of Marinelli's DL scheme is to keep the 3-tech from facing double-teams. That's why the line is shifted to the right. The 3-tech is between the OT and OG, away from the Center. The OT has to block the DE which leaves the 3-tech one-on-one against the OG.

If the OLB is always going to rush, then he's basically a 4-3 DE.

So the best way to deal with a player (Taco) that you're saying needs to get stronger is to put him at at position that requires stronger players than the position that he is currently playing?

They moved Lee to WLB from MLB to keep him from taking a beating from OLinemen. Both 3-4 ILBs are more like 4-3 MLB so he would be back to taking on blocks from OLinemen which didn't help him stay healthy in the past.

Jaylons' s weakest area when he was 100% healthy was taking on and shedding blocks. He is much more skilled at running around blocks, playing in coverage and pass rushing. Making him a 3-4 ILB forces him to take on more blocks than playing MLB in a 4-3 and gives him less chances to shine as in pass coverage or as a pass rusher.

I see literally Zero players that would benefit from playing in a 3-4.

well i thought Collins have played both 3tech and 1tech well.
so i think he may be an option at NT.
obviously would want to draft one.

again this assume 2017 was a failed year, so none of the DLs are that valuable.

so you dont think jaylon would be good in a 3-4?
i think he weighs about 250 now and is much stronger.

i hear you about lee and it did make me think twice.
but ilb in 3-4 may not be as physically tough as mlb in 4-3?

what i am suggesting would involving tapper rushing say 80% of the time.
the jaylon and the drafted/signed olb rushing a lot of the time.

taco is going to have to get stronger in whatever position.
he looks like he has the frame for it.
i think playing end in the 3-4 would be less challenging than in the 4-3.

by getting a NT and a rush OLB, look at how much flexiblity you add.
you can play the NT as a 1-tech when you want to shift to a 4-3.
tapper can shift between DE and OLB.

the RDE in 2017 may already be standing up a la Seattle LEO.
so all this is adding is having him hop between different gaps and lining the DL perhaps differently.