The DT Position

[tm1119]

Obviously you stick to your overall board over positional rankings

But to honestly answer the question...those are just ridiculous rankings imo (I know not yours). Lawson, Walker, Takk, Williams, Watt and whoever else you want to throw into that group don't belong.

(in no order)
Garrett
Barnett
Taco
Harris
Allen
Thomas
McDowell
Brantley

If we draft a DL'man other than 1 of those 8 it's going to be a reach for need imo. People are so DE thirsty that they are forgetting how the team was built in the 1st place.

 

[Sydla]

Obviously you stick to your overall board over positional rankings

But to honestly answer the question...those are just ridiculous rankings imo (I know not yours). Lawson, Walker, Takk, Williams, Watt and whoever else you want to throw into that group don't belong.

(in no order)
Garrett
Barnett
Taco
Harris
Allen
Thomas
McDowell
Brantley

If we draft a DL'man other than 1 of those 8 it's going to be a reach for need imo. People are so DE thirsty that they are forgetting how the team was built in the 1st place.

Considering how McKinley, for example, is in almost 90% of the top 32s you see listed, this notion that he doesn't belong is peculiar to me.

 

[Alexander]

This logic is bizarre to me.

It doesn't matter if you take the 7th ranked DE over the 3rd ranked DT if that 7th rated DE is still rated higher on your board than the DT.

Perhaps I did not clarify it enough. Nobody is talking about jumping the board.

It does matter if you take the 7th rated DE over the 3rd rated DT if the value is not there.

I just see a lot of posters getting myopic about having to get a pass rush.

Trust me, I want that bad.

But if it comes down to picking the "last of the Mohicans" as Jones likes to say over an equal or better ranked WR, TE, etc., I want that player highest on the board. Just because the DE class is rich has zero to do with individual value.

So I don't quite understand when people say I'd rather have the 3rd ranked WR over the 8th ranked DE. If the third ranked WR is a crappy WR because the WR class is crappy, that seems quite silly to me.

A common theme here in this draft is that this class is long on DEs. Most of the early boards (granted, from media types and not real scouts) has multiple DEs listed before you even get to a DT. So if the Cowboys have 6 DEs rated higher than their highest rated DT, taking the DT would seem to be a foolish move.

All depends on value. The DE crop is pretty good, but once you get down to the likes of what we will have to pick from at our spot, the board has to be trusted.

That also means stacking your board appropriately, without taking the DE need with a design to artificially elevate due to need.

We have done it before.

 

[tm1119]

Considering how McKinley, for example, is in almost 90% of the top 32s you see listed, this notion that he doesn't belong is peculiar to me.

Don't care about his rankings. Watch his tape and show me where he beats o lineman with either a pass rush move or bending around the edge. I'll wait...

I've watched all of his games on draft breakdown but here's a highlight of his best plays of 2016 and the very last play is the only 1 I see of him demonstrating a pass rush of a 1st round DE. Said it before, but Takk reminds me a ton of Lawrence. Athletic and has an above average 1st step, but what else? I don't see anything else, besides the fact that he does have a good motor, from Takk.

 

[Doomsdayblitz]

Don't want to derail your thread, but when McDowell was playing outside his play was much better. I think he was severely miscast as a DT, he made it work, but it's not where he belongs. He has speed off the edge, uses his hands well, has multiple moves including a solid spin, and converts his speed to power. I think he's the top edge guy behind Allen and Garrett.

I don't want to derail either, but I prefer Derek Barnett over almost anyone, including Garrett. If you look at Garrett's last 3-5 games, he hardly had any production at all. In his bowl game, he played not to get hurt. While that may be smart business sense, maybe some of his teammates might have actually wanted to win that game. Barnett, on the other hand, was a one-man wrecking crew vs Nebraska. He was only credited with one sack, but got stiffed by the refs. Replays showed that he had a strip sack earlier in the game, but the refs had already blown the whistle-& the call. He broke Reggie White's all-time sack record of 32 in only 3 seasons, ending with 33. He may not be the athlete Garrett is, but he more than makes up for it with an almost obsessive need to blow up every opponent's backfield for 60 full minutes. Give me the guy with the most heart & a more vicious attitude towards his opponents than a prime-dona who thinks only of himself.

 

[stilltheguru88]

Every year people want to draft a 1T high.

Every year those people walk away disappointed.

Frankly I stand with the brain trust on this. Not worth investing there early.

Also, if your bar for success is 10 sacks as a rookie... You're almost always going to be disappointed no matter where you pick in the draft.

the brain trust needs to realize why our run d was so good last year. 1tech playing well.

 

[AzorAhai]

Don't care about his rankings. Watch his tape and show me where he beats o lineman with either a pass rush move or bending around the edge. I'll wait...

I've watched all of his games on draft breakdown but here's a highlight of his best plays of 2016 and the very last play is the only 1 I see of him demonstrating a pass rush of a 1st round DE. Said it before, but Takk reminds me a ton of Lawrence. Athletic and has an above average 1st step, but what else? I don't see anything else, besides the fact that he does have a good motor, from Takk.

To me he's athletic, but is pretty bad with his hands. He let's OTs get into his body very easily. It seems like a lot of projection based on his athleticism.

I'm still hopeful Barnett falls because he lacks the typical athleticism scouts love. Right now I like Harris. He does something nobody on this team can do on the edge and Mizzou has been pass rush university lately. I know he doesn't have the ideal size, but I would take the chance on him bulking up some.

 

[xwalker]

Don't care about his rankings. Watch his tape and show me where he beats o lineman with either a pass rush move or bending around the edge. I'll wait...

I've watched all of his games on draft breakdown but here's a highlight of his best plays of 2016 and the very last play is the only 1 I see of him demonstrating a pass rush of a 1st round DE. Said it before, but Takk reminds me a ton of Lawrence. Athletic and has an above average 1st step, but what else? I don't see anything else, besides the fact that he does have a good motor, from Takk.

The problem is that he didn't have to use "moves" to win as a pass rusher in that video. You can't really determine from that video that he can't win with "moves" or that he can't bend.

Highlight videos are just not a good way to evaluate players. The highlights only show what a player can do. Watching full games is the best way to evaluate players to see what they can't do as well as what they can do.

 

[Oh_Canada]

Absolutely.

A difference maker to pair with Collins would be just as impactful as an edge. Pressure does not have to come from the outside. Inside pressure is just as crucial.

Way these guys are getting rid of the ball it might be more important.

 

[xwalker]

For good reason all of the talk had been on DT so far, but there are also some really DT prospects in this draft that could also have a big impact on our D. I'll highlight a few guys I like but please go ahead and add others you like as well.


Malik McDowell, Mich St- He's a bit of a tweener and not a 1 tech at all...but he is 1 heck of a pass rusher when he is on. Would have liked to see more consistency from him throughout the year, but he has a rare blend of athleticism and size at 6'5 280. Fights violently with his hands and long arms and uses a really nice swim move. Some boards have him in the teens which is a little high for me, but at 28 he'd definitely be worth it.
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/malik-mcdowell-vs-indiana-2016/

Caleb Brantley, Florida- REALLY like Brantley. He can play either the 1 or 3 for us. Sports a compact muscular frame that generates power and quickness. Consistently wreaks havoc on the pocket. Would like to see him finish plays and bring ball carriers down a little more consistently. Really can be a disruptive pocket crasher tho who is also good vs the run. Would definitely consider him at 28 as well
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/caleb-brantley-vs-vanderbilt-2016/

Jarron Jones, Nortre Dame- Missed all of 2015 with a knee injury and has other nagging injuries while at Notre Dame plus has never put up big production, but man does this kid flash on tape when healthy. Huge at 6'5 315 but plays with a sudden quickness and power. Manhandles opposing o lineman and can at least consistently walk his man back. Overall better athlete than you would expect as well, can bend and run for a big guy. Watch him below vs Miami, he's just downright mean to the o lineman at times. Would definitely consider him in the 3rd if all of his medicals check out, I run to the podium if he's still there in the 4th.
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jarron-jones-vs-miami-2016/

I need to study more games, but I don't see any of them as 1st round picks. Maybe 2nd for McDowell and 3rd or later for the other two.
The interesting thing that all 3 have in common is that they often line up really close to the line. On many snaps they would be considered off-sides in the NFL. You can see some snaps where their head appears to be over the ball.

McDowell - Maybe he can hold up at DT but it's definitely a question mark. If he is a DE, then he is probably way down the list in this draft.

Brantley - Not really a high energy type player, at least not consistently. Tends to lose sight of the RB.

Jones - Good size with better than average quickness for a 1-tech type. Medical and lack of production points to somewhere around the 4th round, IMO.

If Maliek Collins was in this draft, I would have him rated ahead of all three of these guys.

 

[tm1119]

The problem is that he didn't have to use "moves" to win as a pass rusher in that video. You can't really determine from that video that he can't win with "moves" or that he can't bend.

Highlight videos are just not a good way to evaluate players. The highlights only show what a player can do. Watching full games is the best way to evaluate players to see what they can't do as well as what they can do.

Come on man, I clearly stated "I've watched all of his tape on draftbreakdown"....I'm not basing my opinion on that 1 highlight video at all. There's 5 videos from 2016 on there. I'll throw the challenge to you as well.. Show me evidence of a pass rush move. You MIGHT find 2 or 3 individual plays out of those 5 full games.

And it's not just my opinion, this is from his NFL.com draft profile

"Weaknesses
Hand skill and overall usage is completely uncultivated and impedes pass rush potential. Lacks slaps, swipes and a serviceable rip move to grease the edge as a rusher. Punch has very little force. Needs to get hands and feet need in unison. Long arms are irrelevant at times due to slow punch. Lacks bend around the edge. Upright pass rush allows tackles to flatten him up and over the rush arc with just an average punch. Movements are a little bit stiff. Redirected too easily. Needs to continue to add play strength. Success predicated on effort over rush talent and functional power. Needs to combine all three elements to his game."
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/takkarist-mckinley?id=2557872

So they are saying he has 0 hand usage, doesn't bend well, and doesn't play with enough power...given all that he better be Usain Bolt bolt around the edge, which he isn't at all. They are spot on with their assessment at the end. He put up stats in the PAC 12 by being an above average athlete with a good motor and very little else.
I'll agreee that the skeleton of a decent pass rusher is there, but he's incredibly far from being a quality NFL pass rusher.

 

[xwalker]

Come on man, I clearly stated "I've watched all of his tape on draftbreakdown"....I'm not basing my opinion on that 1 highlight video at all. There's 5 videos from 2016 on there. I'll throw the challenge to you as well.. Show me evidence of a pass rush move. You MIGHT find 2 or 3 individual plays out of those 5 full games.

And it's not just my opinion, this is from his NFL.com draft profile

"Weaknesses
Hand skill and overall usage is completely uncultivated and impedes pass rush potential. Lacks slaps, swipes and a serviceable rip move to grease the edge as a rusher. Punch has very little force. Needs to get hands and feet need in unison. Long arms are irrelevant at times due to slow punch. Lacks bend around the edge. Upright pass rush allows tackles to flatten him up and over the rush arc with just an average punch. Movements are a little bit stiff. Redirected too easily. Needs to continue to add play strength. Success predicated on effort over rush talent and functional power. Needs to combine all three elements to his game."
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/takkarist-mckinley?id=2557872

So they are saying he has 0 hand usage, doesn't bend well, and doesn't play with enough power...given all that he better be Usain Bolt bolt around the edge, which he isn't at all. They are spot on with their assessment at the end. He put up stats in the PAC 12 by being an above average athlete with a good motor and very little else.
I'll agreee that the skeleton of a decent pass rusher is there, but he's incredibly far from being a quality NFL pass rusher.

I'm not disagreeing with you on his ability. You posted the video and said find evidence in it. My point was the video you posted didn't mean much pro or con.

I'm not sure why you're posting draft reports about him when you previously said you didn't care about rankings.

Just post your own analysis. I would like to see your analysis of the other DEs in a side by side comparison.

I'll probably post one at some point.

The good thing is there are several DEs that might be really good in this draft.

The bad thing is that not many of them really differentiate themselves all that much.

 

[visionary]

Why just be OK at DT? If you can improve it, you do it. And if we strive for a BPA style of draft over need, in the mid rounds, a DT might be the best guy on our board.

There isn't a position on defense other than say WLB with Lee that would couldn't stand to improve if the opportunity presents itself.

We need a difference make at DT and DE
Add in Smith at MLB and Berry at safety and suddenly we have a real defense

 

[tm1119]

I'm not disagreeing with you on his ability. You posted the video and said find evidence in it. My point was the video you posted didn't mean much pro or con.

I'm not sure why you're posting draft reports about him when you previously said you didn't care about rankings.

Just post your own analysis. I would like to see your analysis of the other DEs in a side by side comparison.

I'll probably post one at some point.

The good thing is there are several DEs that might be really good in this draft.

The bad thing is that not many of them really differentiate themselves all that much.

I posted the highlight video because me posting 5 full games is pointless because the guy clearly isn't going to watch them all and give me feedback. And my point was that a highlight of all of the best plays of his '16 season should show some pass rush moves. The highlight videos of all of the other DE's will show something. Takk's didn't because there's very little there to actually highlight. Harris you will see a great spin, Taco bends around the edge well, Barnett's hand usage is outstanding...none of that from Takk.

Rankings this early I don't put much stock in. A scouting report from a respected source on the guy's ability isn't the same thing at all.

My take is that he's a guy with average size, an above average burst, a good motor....and nothing else. Not only does he not have aggressive pass rush moves to beat OT's with like a spin or swim, but he also has no counter moves once engaged. His bull rush is decent but nothing to be feared. I do see him walking some guys back when he gets his arms extended, but not with great enough force and he doesn't disengage once close to the QB. Like I said, the skeleton of a guy who COULD be a good pass rusher is there, but he needs to learn pretty much everything if he's going to play with his hand in the dirt for 3 downs. Right now he completely relies on beating OT's with his 1st step or nothing and I don't see it as special enough to propel him at the next level. If he's there at the end of the 2nd where we pick, ok sure I can see that. But 1st round? No way.

 

[ghst187]

Barnett is my fave and I would consider a short trade up to get him. I like Harris, Tak, and Taco after that in that order. I like Walker a LOT but not in the first because I would move him inside on passing downs. I actually like Hall too but I think he will sneak a lot higher than folks are currently projecting, like late second early third, which is a bit rich for my tastes but if we don't have an edge rusher by then I'd consider him.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Caleb Brantley, Florida- REALLY like Brantley. He can play either the 1 or 3 for us. Sports a compact muscular frame that generates power and quickness. Consistently wreaks havoc on the pocket. Would like to see him finish plays and bring ball carriers down a little more consistently. Really can be a disruptive pocket crasher tho who is also good vs the run. Would definitely consider him at 28 as well
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/caleb-brantley-vs-vanderbilt-2016/

Brantley should pay someone to scrub the internet of any evidence of his game against 'Bama this year. The first 2-3 snaps he looked unstoppable against Bama's OGs, from there it was downhill. I was not impressed by his effort in pursuit as he routinely shut it down way too early while the play was active.

In one play at the goal line he was loafing around in short distance of the play as the Gator RB was fighting for extra yards and eventually broke through for the score. On a different play he lazily put on a spin move and lost track of the RB as he ran right past him near the Gator sideline. I'm guessing the coaching staff wasn't too please as he raised his arms like "what did I do?" after the play. He's a bit of an enigma to me.

 

[xwalker]

Brantley should pay someone to scrub the internet of any evidence of his game against 'Bama this year. The first 2-3 snaps he looked unstoppable against Bama's OGs, from there it was downhill. I was not impressed by his effort in pursuit as he routinely shut it down way too early while the play was active.

In one play at the goal line he was loafing around in short distance of the play as the Gator RB was fighting for extra yards and eventually broke through for the score. On a different play he lazily put on a spin move and lost track of the RB as he ran right past him near the Gator sideline. I'm guessing the coaching staff wasn't too please as he raised his arms like "what did I do?" after the play. He's a bit of an enigma to me.

It was just that game. He looks lazy in other games also.

 

[tm1119]

Brantley should pay someone to scrub the internet of any evidence of his game against 'Bama this year. The first 2-3 snaps he looked unstoppable against Bama's OGs, from there it was downhill. I was not impressed by his effort in pursuit as he routinely shut it down way too early while the play was active.

In one play at the goal line he was loafing around in short distance of the play as the Gator RB was fighting for extra yards and eventually broke through for the score. On a different play he lazily put on a spin move and lost track of the RB as he ran right past him near the Gator sideline. I'm guessing the coaching staff wasn't too please as he raised his arms like "what did I do?" after the play. He's a bit of an enigma to me.

Yeah I won't even argue that. The Bama game was really bad to watch. Still really likes the way he fires off the ball and how low he keeps his pad level. More consistency would be nice, but I really see him as a guy who can be disruptive even if he isn't a guy who doesn't register a ton of sacks. Probably belongs somewhere in between our 1st and 2nd round picks though

 

[RS12]

I'm all aboard the Larry Ogunjobi train. Choo Choo

He s on the Cowboys radar, have spoken with him.

 

[RandyOh]

He s on the Cowboys radar, have spoken with him.

oh really? thats great. He along with Collins could give us that very disruptive interior for the next 10 years.