The great Belichick

[Reid1boys]

Belichick's Pats fell apart after Brady left. Takes 3-5 years to build a contender. BAM, logic.

You're not going anywhere w/o a QB. You're also not going anywhere w/o a good HC. Can you put that together? BAM, logic.

The great cardinals hit the QB lottery and BAM, and just like that, the rest of the roster is damn good. BAM, there is your logic.

If you actually WATCH games, you will see how many called plays for the Cards break down and Murray runs around like a Madden player and converts 3rd and 16 off of absolutely nothing. And BAM, the O coordinator is the next guru and will soon be up for a head coaching position, when reality he is no better than the guy in Houston that doesnt have a miracle worker bailing him out.

 

[Reid1boys]

Right. But he's the only coach to appear in that many super bowls when he has an elite QB.

elite qb? nah, hes considered the greatest qb ever... not just elite.

 

[Reid1boys]

You make it sound as if 11-5 with Matt Cassel was a huge accomplishment. It was 5 games worse than the previous season when they were 16-0.

Cassel also played the NFC west in 2008 which went 22-44, the worst division record in the history of the NFL. Those were 4 easy wins for the Patriots.

The 2008 Patriots under Cassel also failed to win the division or even make the playoffs, the only time that happened from 2003-2019. Without Brady they took a huge step back. And that team was loaded, except for QB. Don’t try and make it appear as if they were successful in Brady’s absence. Missing the playoffs is not a successful season.

Billy Boy, doing exactly what he is doing right now would get 70% of NFL coaches fired by the 3rd season of sucking. Pats are what??? 1-3? on their way to a 5-6 win season.... damn hes great.

 

[Pape]

You make it sound as if 11-5 with Matt Cassel was a huge accomplishment

you've obviously never seen him play.

 

[Pape]

Brady will humble Belichick tonight.

Humbled?

huh... was that a humbling defeat?

 

[Pape]

The great cardinals hit the QB lottery and BAM, and just like that, the rest of the roster is damn good. BAM, there is your logic.

If you actually WATCH games, you will see how many called plays for the Cards break down and Murray runs around like a Madden player and converts 3rd and 16 off of absolutely nothing. And BAM, the O coordinator is the next guru and will soon be up for a head coaching position, when reality he is no better than the guy in Houston that doesnt have a miracle worker bailing him out.

So the time to develop the quarterback is meaningless? The time spent teaching them how to read defenses, how to game plan an opponent all that stuff they don't learn in college just suddenly magically appears in their heads?

Its the combination of the coach and the player that brings on long term success. There are coaches who have gotten great games and seasons from players who went on to bustville... there are great players who carried poor coaches on their backs... But the special ones? Those guys learned how to work together, and when they did the league stood up and took note.

 

[Reid1boys]

So the time to develop the quarterback is meaningless? The time spent teaching them how to read defenses, how to game plan an opponent all that stuff they don't learn in college just suddenly magically appears in their heads?

Its the combination of the coach and the player that brings on long term success. There are coaches who have gotten great games and seasons from players who went on to bustville... there are great players who carried poor coaches on their backs... But the special ones? Those guys learned how to work together, and when they did the league stood up and took note.

You think Murray couldnt have gone to any team in the NFL and not ended up being what we see? All of those coordinators know how to teach reading defenses. You think the O coordinator in Houston is a dumb coACH? AND THE GUY IN aZ IS A GURU?

 

[JJHLH1]

Belichick went 11-5 with Matt Cassel in 2008.

This is actually wrong.

Cassel only started 15 games for the 2008 Patriots. His record was 10-5. Look it up.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CassMa00.htm

you've obviously never seen him play.

I’ve seen him play. He’s not great.

But that’s my point. Belichick needs a great QB to be successful. It’s not his “system”.

And Cassel also went 10-5 with the 2010 Kansas City Chiefs, and that team was much less talented than the 2008 Patriots and also played a harder schedule.

People use Cassel’s 10-5 record under Belichick as proof that he’s a great coach. Does that mean Todd Haley is as good a head coach as Belichick?

There are a dozen head coaches that would have the same results as Belichick if they had the GOAT for 20 years.

Bruce Aryans got a Super Bowl after only 1 year with Brady, and didn’t even have the benefit of a preseason to work out the kinks, which meant they had to go on the road three times in the playoffs. That’s more impressive in my opinion.

 

[Pape]

You think Murray couldnt have gone to any team in the NFL and not ended up being what we see? All of those coordinators know how to teach reading defenses. You think the O coordinator in Houston is a dumb coACH? AND THE GUY IN aZ IS A GURU?

something worked... gifted players go to teams all the time and wash out... you think sam darnold is thanking his stars he's out in jersey? I do. Thing is he's found a coach/oc he can work with... you think you are just going to plop a rookie qb in a line up and watch in awe how he grows sans being coached up? thats ridiculous.

Players need that development, especially the qb... They need the coach... There are obvious exceptions to the rule... do I think peyton manning would do well regardless? yes, because he had his father...Do I think drew brees would have accomplished what he did in new orleans without sean payton? no, based on his first few years in san diego... Mitch Trubisky, top of the draft, can make all the throws... *** happened there?

Its a partnership that some players and coaches create by working together that take them both from good to great.

 

[Pape]

This is actually wrong.

Cassel only started 15 games for the 2008 Patriots. His record was 10-5. Look it up.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CassMa00.htm



I’ve seen him play. He’s not great.

But that’s my point. Belichick needs a great QB to be successful. It’s not his “system”.

And Cassel also went 10-5 with the 2010 Kansas City Chiefs, and that team was much less talented than the 2008 Patriots and also played a harder schedule.

People use Cassel’s 10-5 record under Belichick as proof that he’s a great coach. Does that mean Todd Haley is as good a head coach as Belichick?

There are a dozen head coaches that would have the same results as Belichick if they had the GOAT for 20 years.

Bruce Aryans got a Super Bowl after only 1 year with Brady, and didn’t even have the benefit of a preseason to work out the kinks, which meant they had to go on the road three times in the playoffs. That’s more impressive in my opinion.

dude, im sorry, i have to put you on ignore. your avatar is just too nauseating to look at anymore

 

[Hoofbite]

This is actually wrong.

Cassel only started 15 games for the 2008 Patriots. His record was 10-5. Look it up.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CassMa00.htm

Brady went out when the score was 0-0. Seems like a win for Cassel, at it would be by MLB standards.

 

[JJHLH1]

Brady went out when the score was 0-0. Seems like a win for Cassel, at it would be by MLB standards.

It’s a good point but Brady gets credit for the win since he started the game.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

Fair or not that’s how it is counted officially.

“In the NFL, the starting quarterback is the only position that is credited with records of wins and losses.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_career_quarterback_wins_leaders

Of course it works both ways. In Dak’s rookie season in 2016 when we had HFA wrapped up Dak only played the first series in the final game against the Eagles. It was 0-0 when he left. Mark Sanchez played most of the game at QB but Dak got credited for the loss.

 

[Hoofbite]

It’s a good point but Brady gets credit for the win since he started the game.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

Fair or not that’s how it is counted officially.

“In the NFL, the starting quarterback is the only position that is credited with records of wins and losses.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_career_quarterback_wins_leaders

Of course it works both ways. In Dak’s rookie season in 2016 when we had HFA wrapped up Dak only played the first series in the final game against the Eagles. It was 0-0 when he left. Mark Sanchez played most of the game at QB but Dak got credited for the loss.

That's all well and good, but I don't think the difference is so great that arguing 10 versus 11 wins is all that critical. Brady went out halfway through the first and Cassel played the rest. This is pedantic beyond pedantic.

 

[JJHLH1]

That's all well and good, but I don't think the difference is so great that arguing 10 versus 11 wins is all that critical. Brady went out halfway through the first and Cassel played the rest. This is pedantic beyond pedantic.

I agree.

 

[jnday]

Yippers. Fans put too much emphasis on McCarthy being a Super Bowl coach. That’s something because it is difficult to even get there, but all that really means is he was a part if the specific ingredients and circumstances that produced that accomplishment. That’s the difference with coaches like Landry and Parcells.

I have seen several videos of Belichick praising Landry and how Landry’s system was more important than the players. I think he used Landry’s approach as a model for his own system and coaching. Bill has had years when Brady was injured and the Pats kept winning with some no-name back-up QB. He has been the best coach and GM in the league until the last few years. Belichick and Landry did not make friends with players and both was seen as cold and distant by the players that was on their teams.

 

[Reid1boys]

something worked... gifted players go to teams all the time and wash out... you think sam darnold is thanking his stars he's out in jersey? I do. Thing is he's found a coach/oc he can work with... you think you are just going to plop a rookie qb in a line up and watch in awe how he grows sans being coached up? thats ridiculous.

Players need that development, especially the qb... They need the coach... There are obvious exceptions to the rule... do I think peyton manning would do well regardless? yes, because he had his father...Do I think drew brees would have accomplished what he did in new orleans without sean payton? no, based on his first few years in san diego... Mitch Trubisky, top of the draft, can make all the throws... *** happened there?

Its a partnership that some players and coaches create by working together that take them both from good to great.

Darnold had zero help with the Jets. He goes to Carolina and has 2 legit WRs and the best RB in football. Of course hes better
Sure QBs need a coach to help them... but they all are the same in that department. They all know what they are doing. Some luck out and get talented QBs that make horrible plays that break down into productive first downs. See Murray, Mahomes and Herbert. Others get Trubisky and Josh Rosen.

In 2004 and 2005 Brees basically was a pro bowl QB who only went to the Saints because of an injury. Most QBs take off in year 3 to 4..... Dak Prescott anyone???
It just so happened that Peyton was inheriting a QB that was ready to take off... and he did. Trubisky can make all the throws??? What games have you been watching? Cardinals drafted Rosen. Didnt work out so good did it? Drafted Murray the very next year. Working out pretty well. Not because of coaching.

When I see Billy do it again, when I see Peyton do it again, when I see Tomlin do it again, then come back and see me. But right now, is Peyton seeing some drastic improvements with Winston, or is he basically the same guy????

Like clockwork, the Saints, Colts, Denver, and Pats all went from being premier teams to being basically garbage at the same time their all pro QBs retired.
At the same time, garbage teams have all become legit teams at the exact same time their young QBs are taking off...... Chargers, Cardinals, Cowboys. Amazing how the coach hasnt been able to stop the inevitable from happening.

 

[Pape]

When I see Billy do it again, when I see Peyton do it again, when I see Tomlin do it again, then come back and see me. But right now, is Peyton seeing some drastic improvements with Winston, or is he basically the same guy????

Like clockwork, the Saints, Colts, Denver, and Pats all went from being premier teams to being basically garbage at the same time their all pro QBs retired.
.

of course coaches need talent, but no one has said they don't. Its on the coaches to recognize that talent and develop it. and its like everyone has said - it takes time to develop that talent.

and it takes time to replace that talent... your clockwork comment - its not easy replacing guys with multiple years of institutional knowledge, and you think that's done overnight? that's the standard you are trying to hold them to - its ridiculous.

 

[Reid1boys]

of course coaches need talent, but no one has said they don't. Its on the coaches to recognize that talent and develop it. and its like everyone has said - it takes time to develop that talent.

and it takes time to replace that talent... your clockwork comment - its not easy replacing guys with multiple years of institutional knowledge, and you think that's done overnight? that's the standard you are trying to hold them to - its ridiculous.

its not ridiculous. Its just the point that all of these coaches are just like all the others. Is it a coincidence that this brand new coach in Charger land is looking great? I mean, wow, he did design a play that saw the RB leak out of the backfield and run straight down the sideline as Herbert hit him in stride for a td. It aint like that is something new. My point has always been that 90+ percent of all NFL head coaches are very capable of doing the same as all the others.. IF, and ONLY IF they hit the QB lottery. That is being shown right now in AZ, Chargers,.

 

[Pape]

its not ridiculous. Its just the point that all of these coaches are just like all the others. Is it a coincidence that this brand new coach in Charger land is looking great? I mean, wow, he did design a play that saw the RB leak out of the backfield and run straight down the sideline as Herbert hit him in stride for a td. It aint like that is something new. My point has always been that 90+ percent of all NFL head coaches are very capable of doing the same as all the others.. IF, and ONLY IF they hit the QB lottery. That is being shown right now in AZ, Chargers,.

So why don't those great talented players keep on the track of success after the ordinary, good coach gets replaced?

Manning wasn't successful after dungy left indy... couldn't get fox over the hump in Denver... Was embarrassed 8n the super bowl by the Seahawks...

Russell Wilson ... One of the best ever if you believe razon...

Drew Brees broke open the record books... Yet only found gold once...

The ultra talented Marino ... Just a stats are great now...

Ad nauseum... Game is littered with talented guys who never won or won once and disappeared...

Why? Because it takes more than just talent to win. It takes a team. Which is assembled and taught by ????

The coach.

Think Brady would have won last year if he signed with the Jags?

Think BB could have won in Green Bay with that talented roster?

It's the pairing of player and coach the determines sustained success.

So yeah, on its face your argument is ridiculous.

 

[Reid1boys]

Huh??? The Broncos were 8-8 the year before Manning arrived. Manning arrives and they immediately went 13-3 and were in the SB in 2 of his 4 seasons in Denver.... so what are you talking about? Yep, Brees found Gold once... why? Because Wilson, Rodgers, Manning, Manning, Brady and other HOF QBs were finding gold as well.
Saying Marino was talented and since he didnt win my argument is invalid.. yeah, he didnt win a SB, and neither did Dan Fouts...... being a HOF QB is no guarantee to win, it only ensures you will be in the hunt.
BUt Ill repeat it again.. all of these coaches are good... ALL of them. Some are just blessed to land Herbert.

The question isnt if Brady would have won if he went to the Jags, but would the Bucs have won if they didnt land Brady... and that is an EASY answer, and a big NO WAY. They hadnt even made the playoffs in the previous 11 years..... yet they had the great arians the year before, didnt they.