The Impossible (but Only) Solution

[jday]

We have neighborhood filled with drug dealers, we have problems with heroin overdoes do not tell me there are victimless crimes . Let’s not lock them up, let them keep dealing on the streets and selling to kids out there. I'm sorry that is not acceptable. These are not saints by any means they are looking for the quick money and do not give a damn who ends up dead because of it. I have seen many young black men trying to improve themselves and yet are told they are trying to act white? Why because they are trying to better themselves to get the out of those conditions? I have seen so many so called black leaders who are doing more harm than good. Liberal politicians do need a scapegoat since it is easier to blame all problems on others than to deal with real problems that can be solved by attacking the root of the problems.

Part of the problem there is that once in prison it is almost impossible to find a respectable job after the time is served. And once they go to prison, they are not reformed, but only learn how to not get caught again. It's a self-perpetuating problem.

My recommendation for solution in the op only addresses a small part of the problem. We also need to figure out a way to fix our justice system. As of right now, many times, innocence is decided by the lawyer you can afford; if you can't afford one, you are guilty.

I think every officers badge should have a video camera that monitors their every arrest and traffic stop. No film, no case. If we could just implement that small change, we could avoid people being placed in prison when they are actually innocent. Because once they are placed in prison, it is very difficult to maintain innocence and once they are out it only becomes harder; especially if you have a family you are attempting to provide for.

We need programs for those who went to prison to be afforded an opportunity to provide for their families legally after they serve their time. Of course, even this doesn't fix everything, but it is a start.

 

[jday]

What is the root of the problem?

See the op.

 

[Doomsday101]

What is the root of the problem?

Root of the problem is family and another and maybe the biggest is education. When it comes to education again I think that is something politicians love to throw money at but it does not work. We spend quit a bit on education even compared to other counties but has yet to fix problems of having kids leave school without a proper education. We spend way to much time on social engineering and not enough on real education to make us more competitive in the market place. Lastly and it is a problem that goes across on ethnic groups and that is personal responsibility which we lack in this country.

 

[Doomsday101]

Part of the problem there is that once in prison it is almost impossible to find a respectable job after the time is served. And once they go to prison, they are not reformed, but only learn how to not get caught again. It's a self-perpetuating problem.

My recommendation for solution in the op only addresses a small part of the problem. We also need to figure out a way to fix our justice system. As of right now, many times, innocence is decided by the lawyer you can afford; if you can't afford one, you are guilty.

I think every officers badge should have a video camera that monitors their every arrest and traffic stop. No film, no case. If we could just implement that small change, we could avoid people being placed in prison when they are actually innocent. Because once they are placed in prison, it is very difficult to maintain innocence and once they are out it only becomes harder; especially if you have a family you are attempting to provide for.

We need programs for those who went to prison to be afforded an opportunity to provide for their families legally after they serve their time. Of course, even this doesn't fix everything, but it is a start.

I agree but that is trying to cure the patient after they contract the illness how do you prevent the illness to begin with? I think what you said is right but how about keeping young people out of prison to begin with. Not by accepting bad behavior but by instilling better values and self worth.

 

[jday]

Root of the problem is family and another and maybe the biggest is education. When it comes to education again I think that is something politicians love to throw money at but it does not work. We spend quit a bit on education even compared to other counties but has yet to fix problems of having kids leave school without a proper education. We spend way to much time on social engineering and not enough on real education to make us more competitive in the market place. Lastly and it is a problem that goes across on ethnic groups and that is personal responsibility which we lack in this country.

Family is huge. Because even with the issues I outlined in the op, with the right family there to place the various evils in this world in the proper context, children are left to their own devices to decide how they view it and, more importantly, how they will act on it.

 

[Doomsday101]

Family is huge. Because even with the issues I outlined in the op, with the right family there to place the various evils in this world in the proper context, children are left to their own devices to decide how they view it and, more importantly, how they will act on it.

You bet this mom got it right

 

[jday]

I agree but that is trying to cure the patient after they contract the illness how do you prevent the illness to begin with? I think what you said is right but how about keeping young people out of prison to begin with. Not by accepting bad behavior but by instilling better values and self worth.

Yep. I said is much in the op. I get it. It's not in any way, shape, or form an easy fix.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yep. I said is much in the op. I get it. It's not in any way, shape, or form an easy fix.

Of course not. I just get tired of seeing the same so called black leaders putting blame on anything and everything except for dealing with real issues. They have managed to do more harm than good, these same old tired faces still in office and their communities no better off while they live high on the hog. When I hear terms like White Privilege that irks me big time and many others I know who have worked our arses off for a long time who have played by the rules who have not been given anything and have had our shares of being knocked down and now we are told we are part of the problem? I want to see change for all people of this country to have the opportunity for success and it is not easy but I refuse to be talked at as some scapegoat so some idiot like Maxine Waters can get her butt re-elected. She has made a fortune and yet her community is no better off.




You can't pit people against each other and expect things to ever improve. For me I have always lived by a simple rule, which is treating others as they treat me. I have friends of all color and religion and wish no ill will towards anyone but I will not tolerate being labeled by these lefties groups

 

[jday]

Of course not. I just get tired of seeing the same so called black leaders putting blame on anything and everything except for dealing with real issues. They have managed to do more harm than good, these same old tired faces still in office and their communities no better off while they live high on the hog. When I hear terms like White Privilege that irks me big time and many others I know who have worked our arses off for a long time who have played by the rules who have not been given anything and have had our shares of being knocked down and now we are told we are part of the problem? I want to see change for all people of this country to have the opportunity for success and it is not easy but I refuse to be talked at as some scapegoat so some idiot like Maxine Waters can get her butt re-elected. She has made a fortune and yet her community is no better off.




You can't pit people against each other and expect things to ever improve. For me I have always lived by a simple rule, which is treating others as they treat me. I have friends of all color and religion and wish no ill will towards anyone but I will not tolerate being labeled by these lefties groups

Here's how I look at it. In some cases, there very well may be white privilege. I'm not sure I've ever been the beneficiary of it, but when people sight it, they don't acknowledge that there are alot of privileges that specific races, sex, and religions enjoy, without realizing it. In sports, the overwhelming majority are black...no athletic privilege there? Big men enjoy the privilege of people leaving them alone for the most part (I am a beneficiary of that, I know). Males get paid more than females in the workforce; another privilege I likely enjoy. The only time you hear about the various privileges though is from the people who think they don't get it. I wonder when the last time was that a white person got a job as a result of affirmative action? The problem is, most people don't realize that there are certain privileges they enjoy that others don't. So when these same people complain about others privileges, I always ask them if they are willing to give up there's....I have yet to receive an answer to that, which, in my opinion, is an answer.

 

[jwooten15]

Whats interesting is we have had this "War on Drugs" and this "Tough on Crime" policy since 1981. We had 300k people locked up in federal prison in 1980. We now have 3.5 million people locked up. Do you feel any safer? Show me where it has helped?

Lets lock up millions more and that will show em..then they will stop dealing drugs. Guess what? The only way you can and will ever stop the flow of drugs is to attack the root of the problem......the demand for the drugs. The only way you will stop the demand is if you look at the conditions that create drug users.

Yelling personal responsibility and BOOTSTRAPS! does nothing to solve any problems.
The death penalty doesn't lead to less murders and locking people up for drugs doesn't lead to less drugs. In fact it leads to more.

So your basic premise is that since incarceration and the punishment for breaking the law obviously "isn't working", America should just stop locking them up altogether? This can't be what you really think.

And how would you stop the demand for drugs/address the conditions that create drug users?

This isn't some utopian, fantasy world where problems ***poof** vanish by wishing them away. Since the dawn of time, humans have consumed substances which altered the state of their natural mind. Now, would it be cool if there was a way to make everybody want to live a sober life? Of course, but it will never happen. Ever. And the exact same thing goes for committing crimes or doing immoral things.

 

[superonyx]

Root of the problem is family and another and maybe the biggest is education. When it comes to education again I think that is something politicians love to throw money at but it does not work. We spend quit a bit on education even compared to other counties but has yet to fix problems of having kids leave school without a proper education. We spend way to much time on social engineering and not enough on real education to make us more competitive in the market place. Lastly and it is a problem that goes across on ethnic groups and that is personal responsibility which we lack in this country.

It's not about education either. Since 1975 the percentage of people with a college education has increased from 21% to 34% yet incomes are now lower per person (factoring in inflation) than they were in 1975.
So what happens when 100% of people have college educations? You get millions and millions of people working at McDonalds, Walmart,and Taco Bell with college educations.

Look at who the 10 largest employers are in the country now and what they pay vs 30 years ago. What you will find is a system of income inequality that should make you sick. People are working more hours, with record productivity and yet in millions of cases the job they have doesn't pay them enough to stay off of government assistance. If you want to improve moral and values in the communities then increase the minimum wage so a person working full time have the dignity to take care of themselves and their family. Then you can judge them. The fact that over 50% of our country works full time and makes less than $30k per year is troubling. The fact that 70% of US households cant afford a $700 emergency is scary. When you have this level of income inequality while we work more hours than every industrialized nation you should expect your population to be under unhealthy levels of stress.

The condition that leads to drug abuse is general the loss of hope and purpose.
Our system of economic inequality can't be ignored when looking for the root cause of crime and drug abuse. Until this improves you wont see an improvement in the drug epidemic in our country.
Adding thousands more in college debt wont fix this.

 

[jwooten15]

Here's how I look at it. In some cases, there very well may be white privilege. I'm not sure I've ever been the beneficiary of it, but when people sight it, they don't acknowledge that there are alot of privileges that specific races, sex, and religions enjoy, without realizing it. In sports, the overwhelming majority are black...no athletic privilege there? Big men enjoy the privilege of people leaving them alone for the most part (I am a beneficiary of that, I know). Males get paid more than females in the workforce; another privilege I likely enjoy. The only time you hear about the various privileges though is from the people who think they don't get it. I wonder when the last time was that a white person got a job as a result of affirmative action? The problem is, most people don't realize that there are certain privileges they enjoy that others don't. So when these same people complain about others privileges, I always ask them if they are willing to give up there's....I have yet to receive an answer to that, which, in my opinion, is an answer.

Good point.

 

[superonyx]

So your basic premise is that since incarceration and the punishment for breaking the law obviously "isn't working", America should just stop locking them up altogether? This can't be what you really think.

And how would you stop the demand for drugs/address the conditions that create drug users?

This isn't some utopian, fantasy world where problems ***poof** vanish by wishing them away. Since the dawn of time, humans have consumed substances which altered the state of their natural mind. Now, would it be cool if there was a way to make everybody want to live a sober life? Of course, but it will never happen. Ever. And the exact same thing goes for committing crimes or doing immoral things.

I just answered your question in another post.

Ask yourself why Americans have this drug problem and other countries do not?

And of course I don't believe and never said people shouldn't be punished for committing crimes...however, shouldn't we look at what we consider a crime and if the punishment for this crime should be as long as it is?
Do drug users need to be locked up or treated?

Its interesting to see how we have so many problems so many other countries in the world don't have and we cant figure out a fix....why? Maybe because we are lazy and we think its easier to punish than treat.
Ask yourself why 60% of the people currently locked in prison are actually mentally ill. Look into the for profit prison system and like everything FOLLOW THE MONEY.

And if locking up people was the answer then we would have already solved this problem.

1980- 300k people in prison
2015- 3,500,000 people in prison.

And we are worse off than ever. You tell me how this is working.

 

[jwooten15]

I just answered your question in another post.

Ask yourself why Americans have this drug problem and other countries do not?

And of course I don't believe and never said people shouldn't be punished for committing crimes...however, shouldn't we look at what we consider a crime and if the punishment for this crime should be as long as it is?
Do drug users need to be locked up or treated?

Its interesting to see how we have so many problems so many other countries in the world don't have and we cant figure out a fix....why? Maybe because we are lazy and we think its easier to punish than treat.
Ask yourself why 60% of the people currently locked in prison are actually mentally ill. Look into the for profit prison system and like everything FOLLOW THE MONEY.

I agree with you on certain points. Drugs are universally used in all parts of the world, though. The only reason it's an "epidemic" in the US is that there are such strict laws in regard to their use/distribution. So you think that if we were to become more lax on drugs for personal use, that in turn would create a more stable home environment since that parent wouldn't be locked up? Just trying to understand your train of thought here.

And as far as treatment for drug users, those programs are by-and-large just money grabs. You can't help anybody until they want to help themselves. So placing them in rehab, etc will do nothing except boost that facility's already fat pockets. The vast majority of patients would be discharged, and have a needle in their arm within the next 24 hours. Offering help to someone who doesn't want it is pointless.

 

[jday]

I agree with you on certain points. Drugs are universally used in all parts of the world, though. The only reason it's an "epidemic" in the US is that there are such strict laws in regard to their use/distribution. So you think that if we were to become more lax on drugs for personal use, that in turn would create a more stable home environment since that parent wouldn't be locked up? Just trying to understand your train of thought here.

And as far as treatment for drug users, those programs are by-and-large just money grabs. You can't help anybody until they want to help themselves. So placing them in rehab, etc will do nothing except boost that facility's already fat pockets. The vast majority of patients would be discharged, and have a needle in their arm within the next 24 hours. Offering help to someone who doesn't want it is pointless.

Good point!

 

[Denim Chicken]

LOL, that old man was rude as hell and slammed my cap into my chest. But to his credit, I never forget my hat anymore.

Ha. That reminds me of the time I had an old lady ring my doorbell because my American Flag somehow blew off the pole and landed on the ground. She gave me the business bc she was a retired post office worker and then told me I needed to burn it or I could give it to her so she could properly dispose of it. I politely declined and just hung it up again. She was a friend of my neighbor and gave me the stink eye every time I saw her after that.

I found out later that destroying the flag bc it touches the ground is an urban legend.

 

[Doomsday101]

It's not about education either. Since 1975 the percentage of people with a college education has increased from 21% to 34% yet incomes are now lower per person (factoring in inflation) than they were in 1975.
So what happens when 100% of people have college educations? You get millions and millions of people working at McDonalds, Walmart,and Taco Bell with college educations.

Look at who the 10 largest employers are in the country now and what they pay vs 30 years ago. What you will find is a system of income inequality that should make you sick. People are working more hours, with record productivity and yet in millions of cases the job they have doesn't pay them enough to stay off of government assistance. If you want to improve moral and values in the communities then increase the minimum wage so a person working full time have the dignity to take care of themselves and their family. Then you can judge them. The fact that over 50% of our country works full time and makes less than $30k per year is troubling. The fact that 70% of US households cant afford a $700 emergency is scary. When you have this level of income inequality while we work more hours than every industrialized nation you should expect your population to be under unhealthy levels of stress.

The condition that leads to drug abuse is general the loss of hope and purpose.
Our system of economic inequality can't be ignored when looking for the root cause of crime and drug abuse. Until this improves you wont see an improvement in the drug epidemic in our country.
Adding thousands more in college debt wont fix this.

And how many are worthless degrees? Going for majors in subjects that do you no good unless you become a teacher in the subject or taking majors in areas that are flooded in the market place. Mike Rowe did an interview and I checked his stats to back it up but there are over 5.5 Million jobs that are good paying jobs that people here are unqualified for such as electricians, plumbers, AC tech and many more jobs that people act as if these jobs are beneath them. I agree with him that people need to wake up to the realities that these jobs are important, pay well and there are many openings for them because there are so few qualified to do them. They do not require 4 years of college but you can make a very good living to support yourself and your family on.





As for condition as a contributing factor of drug abuse? BS. This nations has gone through hard time much harder than we see it currently like during the great depression but those people pulled themselves up through hard work. While they got Government assistance they did not remain on it. You get turned down for a job 100 times you go to the 101 interview and you keep pushing. Acting as if someone else is going to change your life well that is not going to happen. It beings and ends with each one of us that is part of personal responsibility and to act as if people of color can't do this to me is racist because I know they can and many who have.

 

[jwooten15]

And how many are worthless degrees? Going for majors in subjects that do you no good unless you become a teacher in the subject or taking majors in areas that are flooded in the market place. Mike Rowe did an interview and I checked his stats to back it up but there are over 5.5 Million jobs that are good paying jobs that people here are unqualified for such as electricians, plumbers, AC tech and many more jobs that people act as if these jobs are beneath them. I agree with him that people need to wake up to the realities that these jobs are important, pay well and there are many openings for them because there are so few qualified to do them. They do not require 4 years of college but you can make a very good living to support yourself and your family on.





As for condition as a contributing factor of drug abuse? BS. This nations has gone through hard time much harder than we see it currently like during the great depression but those people pulled themselves up through hard work. While they got Government assistance they did not remain on it. You get turned down for a job 100 times you go to the 101 interview and you keep pushing. Acting as if someone else is going to change your life well that is not going to happen. It beings and ends with each one of us that is part of personal responsibility and to act as if people of color can't do this to me is racist because I know they can and many who have.

100% agree. And you opened another pandoras box with the welfare thing! That is right up there with the biggest problems this country is facing!



Btw, thanks to the mods who are allowing this type of discussion to take place. It's appreciated!

 

[superonyx]

I agree with you on certain points. Drugs are universally used in all parts of the world, though. The only reason it's an "epidemic" in the US is that there are such strict laws in regard to their use/distribution. So you think that if we were to become more lax on drugs for personal use, that in turn would create a more stable home environment since that parent wouldn't be locked up? Just trying to understand your train of thought here.

And as far as treatment for drug users, those programs are by-and-large just money grabs. You can't help anybody until they want to help themselves. So placing them in rehab, etc will do nothing except boost that facility's already fat pockets. The vast majority of patients would be discharged, and have a needle in their arm withing the next 24 hours. Offering help to someone who doesn't want it is pointless.

Well actually we have the highest level of drug use in the world.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-the-world-in-illegal-drug-use/

Its a very difficult and complex problem and their isn't one simple answer. Its a combination of reasons and most are legit in their own way. For example in America we are raised to be ultra consumers. From the time we are young we are raised to consume. Check out the documentary "Requiem for an American Dream" for a better historical explanation of how western ways create consumerism...Now the reason I am mentioning this is because a person who uses drugs are turning to what they know to do to fill the emptiness and pain they feel in their hearts. What we know is that "if I take this I will feel better". "If I can buy that new car I will be happy". The answers for these people will never be found in consumption. Its looking for an external stimulus to make them happy because human nature wont just sit around and ignore a pain.......
but anyway I am getting long winded here....

People need treatment once they are hooked obviously...I know its not cheap and easy but its more effective than prison for sure.

The thing we need to do as a nation is to make sure everyone feels a sense of purpose. A sense that they have the 1 thing we all need to keep us moving in the right direction.... HOPE.
We don't do that. Instead we prefer to punish and think that's going to fix a broken person.

Sorry if I am not explaining it properly. I have this on one screen a corporate presentation I am working on at the same time.

 

[Dracula]

While I preferred the Steelers way of doing things, I've come to the realization that it ticked off their fanbase like no other fanbase. Watch YouTube videos and it's mostly Steelers fans, out of all 32 teams who are disowning their team and the NFL.

Where I started to find fault with the Steelers protest was that it was clear to me that they were pressuring players to do so. Even Villeneuva who said he wish he would have been out there with his teammates later talked about how apprehensive he was and it was clearly due to peer pressure from teammates. Roethlisberger has now seen the light and regrets not being on the field.

I believe the end game will be that they get rid of the anthem all together. I hope not, but I see that as what will happen.





YR

Getting rid of the anthem and flag ceremony or having the teams hiding in the tunnel during the ceremony is unacceptable and the NFL will never agree. The NFL pr department understands that, if you think there is a backlash now, try that one and see what happens. Ask the Steelers what happened after they hid in the tunnel and their lame excuse for doing so. There are few occasions where a totally anonymous crowd, of American or otherwise, citizens can gather and have the opportunity to pay respect to or not to two of the most enduring symbols of America. I think that the owners will follow the Cowboy method, which gives some to both sides, and those that don't, will in the long run, will wish they had.