The "elite" safeties and their stats through 3 games..

[JIGGYFLY]

So you would rather judge Roy on "impossible to measure stats" than the stats that every other player is judged upon?

Wow

No I judge him by what I see on the feild and what I see is a safety that now leg tackles, runs around blocks, dances with the blocker when blitzing, and oh yeah misses to many tackles to be an elite safety. The thing is a safety is not judged on numbers alone, only someone reaching would base any players abilities soley on stats.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

It seems to me an industrious soul looking to prove a point could figure that out.

No?

yeah give me all 32 teams film to break down and a list of all responsibilities and then I will figure it out Hey this forum is based on opinions and IMO Roy is not playing like an ELITE safety and even worst than that sometimes an adequate safety. I dont need stats to tell me what I see with my own eyes, I ask you once again when was the last time Roy made a truly game changing play in the last 2 years?

 

[AdamJT13]

If you're going to make a thread detailing safeties and their stats, you should at least post stats that are meaningful like the ones that footballoutsiders.com uses

Some of their stats (such as run stop rate) aren't as useful as you might think. And in PFP 2007 (a review of 2006), they say "Roy Williams's pass-coverage deficiencies have been somewhat exaggerated, and he continues to be excellent against the run. ... The problem in Dallas was not Williams ..." They also had Roy with one of the highest success rates in pass coverage, far better than guys such as Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson and Sean Taylor, and better than Brian Dawkins, as well. (STATS LLC and K.C. Joyner had similar stats, as well.)

 

[JIGGYFLY]

I understand what you are saying here, but you do realize that Roy would be a "GREAT" asset in "your" eyes if he changed that. I think it is pretty clear that the Cowboys organization already considers him a "GREAT" asset.

Just out of curiosity, how long do any of you think Roy would last on the FA market if we cut him? How much more would he make if he had a few teams bidding for his services?

Clearly he makes mistakes, show me one NFL player who doesn't, let alone show me one who is on the field as often as he is who makes no mistakes. With Roy you know what you have, I think Wade has done a remarkable job of getting Roy into position to capitalize on his strengths while playing away from his weaknesses. I think RW is going to have a monster year.

Actually I think the fans of the cowboys value him more than the open market, I feel that he would be taking a pay cut on the open market if was to be cut tomorrow.

 

[AdamJT13]

yeah give me all 32 teams film to break down and a list of all responsibilities and then I will figure it out Hey this forum is based on opinions and IMO Roy is not playing like an ELITE safety and even worst than that sometimes an adequate safety. I dont need stats to tell me what I see with my own eyes, I ask you once again when was the last time Roy made a truly game changing play in the last 2 years?

When is the last time you actually watched any other teams play? Just yesterday, you listed a number of players who have been benched, have been cut, are only backups, are washed up or have done nothing in the NFL and said you'd rather have them than Roy. That'll boost your credibility around here, that's for sure.

And do we really need to list all of Roy's game-changing plays for you?

 

[thekavorka]

Some of their stats (such as run stop rate) aren't as useful as you might think. And in PFP 2007 (a review of 2006), they say "Roy Williams's pass-coverage deficiencies have been somewhat exaggerated, and he continues to be excellent against the run. ... The problem in Dallas was not Williams ..." They also had Roy with one of the highest success rates in pass coverage, far better than guys such as Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson and Sean Taylor, and better than Brian Dawkins, as well. (STATS LLC and K.C. Joyner had similar stats, as well.)

Yeah, that was posted earlier in the thread, and I conceded that Roy might be a better player than I thought. If that's the conclusion they came up with using all of the stats from around the league, then that means I probably only paid attention to his negative plays rather than all of his positive plays.

Just wondering, why is run stop rate not useful for assessing a safety? Is it because it depends a lot on the players around him?

 

[WoodysGirl]

Usually I would, but for something like "missed assignments" and "being out of position", that would require me to watch every game over again as well as every game of every other team, something I do not have access to.

My point is that the stats in the OP do not say one thing or another. If you're going to make a thread detailing safeties and their stats, you should at least post stats that are meaningful like the ones that footballoutsiders.com uses

I can respect that.

When I looked at the thread, I don't know that the goal was to show what you were looking for. I think this was a quick and dirty look at how all the top safeties numbers look after three weeks of play.

As for missed assignments and being out of position, I think that's an impossible task and very subjective stat. I think only a few orgs can really guess as to what assignment is missed or tell when a player is out of position and be considered credible. Some or obvious and some are not so obvious. Does footballoutsiders even have either one of those as a stat?

 

[zrinkill]

When is the last time you actually watched any other teams play? Just yesterday, you listed a number of players who have been benched, have been cut, are only backups, are washed up or have done nothing in the NFL and said you'd rather have them than Roy. That'll boost your credibility around here, that's for sure.

And do we really need to list all of Roy's game-changing plays for you?

I was hoping Adam would get in this discussion.

 

[thekavorka]

I can respect that.

When I looked at the thread, I don't know that the goal was to show what you were looking for. I think this was a quick and dirty look at how all the top safeties numbers look after three weeks of play.

As for missed assignments and being out of position, I think that's an impossible task and very subjective stat. I think only a few orgs can really guess as to what assignment is missed or tell when a player is out of position and be considered credible. Some or obvious and some are not so obvious. Does footballoutsiders even have either one of those as a stat?

They don't have it as a stat. The only stats I can find for Safeties and Db's are thrown to rate, completion rate, and yards per completion against the player.

So I suppose only the coaches have a true idea about how well their safety is playing.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

When is the last time you actually watched any other teams play? Just yesterday, you listed a number of players who have been benched, have been cut, are only backups, are washed up or have done nothing in the NFL and said you'd rather have them than Roy. That'll boost your credibility around here, that's for sure.
And do we really need to list all of Roy's game-changing plays for you?

Ok lets get one thing straight first I have no need for credibility on this site and I listed one player that was a backup or was cut and the rest are very productive at there positions but whatever, I have been watching football for over 25 years.

See this is the flaw in your argument you want me to be happy with because he is COMPARABLE to other safeties where once he was thought of as maybe the best which is not even a plausible discussion any more.


And no you do not need to list his game changing plays because I watch all the games and can see that he does do it much anymore.

 

[joseephuss]

Usually I would, but for something like "missed assignments" and "being out of position", that would require me to watch every game over again as well as every game of every other team, something I do not have access to.

My point is that the stats in the OP do not say one thing or another. If you're going to make a thread detailing safeties and their stats, you should at least post stats that are meaningful like the ones that footballoutsiders.com uses

Aren't interceptions a part of being a safety? That is meaningful. I wouldn't use that single stat to evaluate a player, but it is a meaningful stat. Interceptions can be used along with other meaningful stats, so I would say the original post included some meaningful stats. Just not all of them. It is meaningful to me that Bob Sanders has 2 interceptions in 3+ seasons of play while Roy has 2 in the last 2 games. I watch the games to make other determinations, but that is a telling stat.

 

[thekavorka]

Aren't interceptions a part of being a safety? That is meaningful. I wouldn't use that single stat to evaluate a player, but it is a meaningful stat. Interceptions can be used along with other meaningful stats, so I would say the original post included some meaningful stats. Just not all of them. It is meaningful to me that Bob Sanders has 2 interceptions in 3+ seasons of play while Roy has 2 in the last 2 games. I watch the games to make other determinations, but that is a telling stat.

Interceptions can be useful, yes. But then he should have posted interceptions per number of balls thrown in the player's direction or at least a stat detailing the completion rate against the player.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

I was hoping Adam would get in this discussion.

:laugh2: and what is Adam supposed to do. Hey I respect Adams abilitie to find stats to fit his argument and I use a lot of them to form my opinions on certain players but stats are not gonna make a difference when it comes to grading Roy.

 

[superpunk]

I dont need stats to tell me what I see with my own eyes,

Good call.

I ask you once again when was the last time Roy made a truly game changing play in the last 2 years?

You're asking for something here...something like...a statistic?

 

[tomson75]

Ok lets get one thing straight first I have no need for credibility on this site and I listed one player that was a backup or was cut and the rest are very productive at there positions but whatever, I have been watching football for over 25 years.

...and Roy thus far has been proven MORE productive. Perhaps you should watch golf.

See this is the flaw in your argument you want me to be happy with because he is COMPARABLE to other safeties where once he was thought of as maybe the best which is not even a plausible discussion any more.

You're not keeping up with this argument very well. Not only is it "plausible", but it seems it's "probable" that he is, indeed, one of the best.

And no you do not need to list his game changing plays because I watch all the games and can see that he does do it much anymore.

Not that this sentence makes any sense, but I'll just go ahead and reiterate my golf suggestion.

 

[tomson75]

Interceptions can be useful, yes. But then he should have posted interceptions per number of balls thrown in the player's direction or at least a stat detailing the completion rate against the player.

This is true, but if the league has half the contempt for Williams that many of the fans on the internet do, he's probably thrown at more than anyone in the league.

I would like to see that stat though...although I doubt it would be too far off from those of the other "elite" safeties on this list.

 

[AdamJT13]

Just wondering, why is run stop rate not useful for assessing a safety? Is it because it depends a lot on the players around him?

It's not that useful for any players because it only measures plays when you are credited with a tackle (never mind the subjectivity and inaccuracy of the tackle stats kept during the game).

Let's say it's third-and-1 at midfield and a player makes the tackle after a 2-yard gain. Football Outsiders counts that as a "defeat" -- a bad play that lowers a player's "stop rate." But was it a bad play for a safety who came up from the secondary to make the tackle? Was it a bad play for a player who pursued from the other side of the field? Was it a bad play for a cornerback who made an open-field tackle and saved a big play? And if another player missed the tackle behind the line of scrimmage, that doesn't affect his "stop rate" because FO doesn't track those. Similarly, a player who hustles and makes a tackle downfield to save a touchdown is penalized because it counts as a "defeat," even if he wasn't responsible for the big gain.

There are just too many flaws (I could come up with more) in that stat to make it all that useful, if you ask me.

 

[adamknite]

Ok lets get one thing straight first I have no need for credibility on this site and I listed one player that was a backup or was cut and the rest are very productive at there positions but whatever, I have been watching football for over 25 years.

See this is the flaw in your argument you want me to be happy with because he is COMPARABLE to other safeties where once he was thought of as maybe the best which is not even a plausible discussion any more.


And no you do not need to list his game changing plays because I watch all the games and can see that he does do it much anymore.

So you want to have the best player in the league at every position on the field?

Tough luck.

 

[Danny White]

And no you do not need to list his game changing plays because I watch all the games and can see that he does do it much anymore.

How about his goal line interception in the Colts game last year?

How about his pick-six against McNabb and the Eagles on MNF?

That's just off the top of my head... both within the last 2 years.

 

[superpunk]

What follows is a standard Roy bash / Roy apologist exchange reenactment.

Roy Basher: Roy is horrible! he's stealing from Jerry.
Roy Apologist: No. He's a good safety.
RB: No wai. Fat, biscuit, can't cover, misses tackles, blah.
RA: All safeties get beat, miss tackles, etc. Look at Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson, Troy Polamalu.
RB: I don't care how other safeties play, I only care about Roy screwing up.
RA: So what are you grading him against? He produces like the best safety in the league.
RB: Garrrr.....I grade him against me own unrealistic expectations. I view him in a vacuum, and expect the impossible.
RA: [Shoots self in head]

Rinse, repeat. Maybe add something in where they want more in depth stats, then when those are provided, they are degraded and viewed as inconsequential.

Some people just are what they are.