The Umpteenth Roy Williams Gripe Thread **Merge | Deion Apology Audio Post #589**

[BlindFaith]

So Romo has the 21st rated completion percentage.

He has the lowest percentage of completions to any wide receiver.

None of our WRs are in the top 30 for dropped passes.

Yet all the blame goes to Roy Williams.

Top it all off with a OC that cant show any patience or continuity and you have what we have. A stuggling if not completely impotent offense.

Keep your Romo colored glasses on, good for you.

I see what I see and have posted numbers to back up my stance. And I'm sticking by them.

 

[BlindFaith]

However, catchable ball is fluid in this argument and one that you cannot define without some bias.

Well, I would say if I throw it to you and you catch it, it's catchable.

If I throw it to you and you drop it, it's a drop.

If I throw it to you and I don't drop it or catch it, it's not catchable.

The only thing to question is the stats on drops and how accurate they are. Not many reporting sources for that. But it's the same source everyone used in the past to show how terrible TO was for his drops.

And they pass the eye test, at least to those who are objectively watching errant passes sailing around the field and not those wanting to scape goat Roy Williams.

 

[JeffInDC]

So Romo has the 21st rated completion percentage.

He has the lowest percentage of completions to any wide receiver.

None of our WRs are in the top 30 for dropped passes.

Yet all the blame goes to Roy Williams.

Top it all off with a OC that cant show any patience or continuity and you have what we have. A stuggling if not completely impotent offense.

Keep your Romo colored glasses on, good for you.

I see what I see and have posted numbers to back up my stance. And I'm sticking by them.

Oh, no you didn't

 

[wileedog]

What I see is a QB very comfortable with his TE and if they take that away, he struggles with getting the ball to his other WRs.

Which could also mean that an undrafted free agent, a 7th round pick, and an over-rated WR aren't very good, considering he has no issues with a guy who is considered an excellent route runner.

Furthermore, if you are trying to put this all on Romo you hurting your argument when Roy - the #1 WR - is way behind numbers wise a JAG like Crayton.

Curious, where did you pull these numbers from? (and nice work BTW)

 

[BlindFaith]

Which could also mean that an undrafted free agent, a 7th round pick, and an over-rated WR aren't very good, considering he has no issues with a guy who is considered an excellent route runner.

Furthermore, if you are trying to put this all on Romo you hurting your argument when Roy - the #1 WR - is way behind numbers wise a JAG like Crayton.

Curious, where did you pull these numbers from? (and nice work BTW)

Why so quick to blame the receivers always? Maybe Romo just isn't throwing to the open guy. Maybe he's making poor throws.

Maybe it is the scheme.

And it helps the arguement for those saying it isn't on Roy. It says that less than half of the balls thrown his way are on target. Try putting up good numbers when your QB is hanging you out to dry and not able to get it to you in a catchable position.

There is definitely something wrong and it goes far beyond our three receivers.

I just used ESPN stats.

 

[Stautner]

OK, I'm not argueing that fact. Yes, if a WR dropped 35 percent of the catchable balls thrown his way it would be horrendously poor.

But all I have to go by is number of times targeted and drops.

After doing some research, I came accross some interesting numbers.

The leading receiver in the league right now in Receptions to Times Targeted (I'll call this RTT) is Wes Welker at 79%. Here are the top 10:

Wes Welker, NWE 79 100 79.00%
Kevin Walter, HOU 31 40 77.50%
Steve Breaston, ARI 39 52 75.00%
Sidney Rice, MIN 50 68 73.53%
Jason Avant, PHI 27 37 72.97%
Hines Ward, PIT 63 88 71.59%
Antwaan Randle WAS 34 48 70.83%
Davone Bess, MIA 46 65 70.77%
Reggie Wayne, IND 76 108 70.37%
Kelley Washin, BAL 26 37 70.27%

All at 70% or better. Now these are just for receivers.

Now for where the Dallas WRs are:

Miles Austin, DAL 35 62 56.45%
Patrick Crayton, DAL 27 51 52.94%
Roy Williams, DAL 24 57 42.11%

These RTT numbers to our receivers are dramatically lower than those of the other team leaders.

Now according to the only source I could find reporting drops, Roy isn't listed. The list shows all of those with 5 drops or more, so if we say Roy has 4 drops and I make those flat out completions his numbers still look like this:

Roy Williams, DAL 28 57 49.12%

Still very poor. So less than half of the times Roy is targeted the ball is completed. This with adding in the 4 drops as completions. This is a direct reflection on QB accuracy.

As you can see with Austin and Crayton as well. Slighter better than 50%.

Now looking at Wittens numbers you will see a big difference.

Jason Witten, DAL 54 71 76.06%

He ranks just behind these two:

Heath Miller, PIT 54 64 84.38%
Dallas Clark, IND 65 81 80.25%

It's clear from this that Romo is far more comfortable throwing to his buddy than he is at throwing to any other WR on the team. And it's not even close.

Now let's look at the team numbers of the better offenses in the league.

Tim Highter, RB ARI 47 59 79.66%
Steve Breast, WR ARI 39 52 75.00%
Anquan Boldin, WR ARI 51 76 67.11%
Larry Fitzgld, WR ARI 71 107 66.36%

Donald Driver, WR GNB 46 72 63.89%
Greg Jennigs, WR GNB 43 73 58.90%

Steve Slaton, RB HOU 37 47 78.72%
Kevin Walter, WR HOU 31 40 77.50%
Owen Daniels, TE HOU 40 57 70.18%
Andre Johnso, WR HOU 58 104 55.77%

Dallas Clark, TE IND 65 81 80.25%
Reggie Wayne, WR IND 76 108 70.37%
Austin Collie, WR IND 39 57 68.42%
Pierre Garcon, WR IND 32 64 50.00%

Sidney Rice, WR MIN 50 68 73.53%
Percy Harvin, WR MIN 36 55 65.45%

Jeremy Shocky, TE NOR 39 55 70.91%
Devery Hendes, WR NOR 31 47 65.96%
Marques Colston, WR NOR 44 68 64.71%

Wes Welker, WR NWE 79 100 79.00%
Randy Moss, WR NWE 63 104 60.58%

Steve Smith, WR NYG 65 97 67.01%
Hakeem Nicks, WR NYG 28 46 60.87%
Kevin Boss, TE NYG 24 40 60.00%
Mario Mannim, WR NYG 40 68 58.82%

Heath Miller, TE PIT 54 64 84.38%
Hines Ward, WR PIT 63 88 71.59%
Santonio Holmes, WR PIT 50 86 58.14%
Mike Wallace, WR PIT 28 49 57.14%

Antonio Gates, TE SDG 52 76 68.42%
Vincent Jackson, WR SDG 47 72 65.28%
Malcom Floyd, WR SDG 20 35 57.14%

Jason Witten, TE DAL 54 71 76.06%
Miles Austin, WR DAL 35 62 56.45%
Patrick Crayton, WR DAL 27 51 52.94%
Roy Williams, WR DAL 24 57 42.11%

What I see is a QB very comfortable with his TE and if they take that away, he struggles with getting the ball to his other WRs.

Argue all you want about drops, poor route running, blah, blah, blah.

The elite offensive teams find ways to get the ball to the open guys.

This is still all deflection, because you are still trying to make the focus about Romo misthrowing and not about Roy not doing his job.

As I said before, nobody is blaming Roy for missing an uncatchable pass. A pass that is 10 feet over Roy's head is not part of the topic of discussion.

It's the dropped passes AND the tough catches that may not qualify as drops but that truly quality recievers make much of the time AND its being so much more dramatically out of sync with Romo than any other receiver on the team.

Some of that can be looked at statistically, some not, but it's a collective consideration of all these factors that creates concern with regard to Williams. As I've said before, you just can't explain all of that by saying Romo misthrows too often.

 

[Bleu Star]

All this bickering is rediculous. You don't need to look furhter than hte last game to see a completely useless and ineffective Roy Willliams, and then Tony Romo doing what he does best, where in a critical momnet, on a busted coverage play, he squeeks out of the rush while playing with an injury, moves the pocket, communicates with an adjusting WR not named Roy Williams, and throws the game winning TD.

Forget about numbers and conversion percentages; stats be dammed! The bottom line is that Romo is a top QB in this league that connects with any Cowboys WR not names Roy Williams, while Roy Williams is a waste of roster space that sucks so hard, he swallows!

Can we all move on now - please?

& bingo was his nameo.

 

[wileedog]

Why so quick to blame the receivers always? Maybe Romo just isn't throwing to the open guy. Maybe he's making poor throws.

Because if it was Romo he wouldn't be connecting 76% with the only quality target he has in Witten.

Maybe it is the scheme.

Quite possibly. I'm sure Khalid will chime in here any moment with his thoughts on Garrett, but you can definitely say Jason had issues getting WRs open last year. Certainly the calls against Denver at the goal line were poor.

There is definitely something wrong and it goes far beyond our three receivers.

Those numbers don't conclude that definitively. Like I said before, I think we have some of the most average WRs in the league. Other than one catch against the Eagles Austin hasn't proven he can beat double teams, and he's had consistent route running problems every game. Williams has done nothing in 20 games here and has one good season in his career in a Mike Martz offense. Crayton is Crayton.

Not absolving Romo, I don't think he has been perfect either. But I don't see anything in the numbers you posted to suggest it is all his fault, or even a majority, especially when he is completing a well above average amount to the one guy who is considered a bona fide talent.

just used ESPN stats.

I didn't know they had targetted-to stats, thanks.

 

[BlindFaith]

Those numbers don't conclude that definitively. Like I said before, I think we have some of the most average WRs in the league. Other than one catch against the Eagles Austin hasn't proven he can beat double teams, and he's had consistent route running problems every game. Williams has done nothing in 20 games here and has one good season in his career in a Mike Martz offense. Crayton is Crayton..

That part I can't answer. All I hear though is that WRs are getting open. I'm not in the film room breaking down routes and seeing who is open or not. If they are running the correct routes or not.

But this all takes me back to last year and the hoopla about TO, and the conspiracy of Romo and Witten drawing up plays together.

Thats all fine and good. I'm sure the two of them spend alot of time together going over things.

But he needs to be going over things with the WRs too. The numbers clearly show that there are problems between Romo and the wideouts.

You blame all the wideouts, I blame Romo.

The only ones who really know are those calling the plays and breaking down the film.

 

[Bleu Star]

Romo has definitely not been perfect but for someone to say it's more Romo's fault over the venerable Christmas ornament littered garbage bag... That's laughable. :laugh2:

 

[BlindFaith]

This is still all deflection, because you are still trying to make the focus about Romo misthrowing and not about Roy not doing his job.

As I said before, nobody is blaming Roy for missing an uncatchable pass. A pass that is 10 feet over Roy's head is not part of the topic of discussion.

It's the dropped passes AND the tough catches that may not qualify as drops but that truly quality recievers make much of the time AND its being so much more dramatically out of sync with Romo than any other receiver on the team.

Some of that can be looked at statistically, some not, but it's a collective consideration of all these factors that creates concern with regard to Williams. As I've said before, you just can't explain all of that by saying Romo misthrows too often.

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm pointing out facts and numbers to back them up.

Tell me how many drops Roy has. Tell me how many bad routes he ran. Show me the film.

The numbers I posted are clear in that the completion percentages to his wideouts, ALL OF THEM, are dramatically lower than to his TE and are dramatically lower than the numbers put up by elite level QBs and offenses.

To deny that simply indicates you have an agenda with Roy and are oblivious or simply ignorant to the fact.

 

[BlindFaith]

Romo has definitely not been perfect but for someone to say it's more Romo's fault over the venerable Christmas ornament littered garbage bag... That's laughable. :laugh2:

What's laughable are your peanut gallery comments that are neither informative, amusing nor insightful.

Enjoy being a sheep amongst the herd.

 

[wileedog]

You blame all the wideouts, I blame Romo.

.

I'm not sure its one or the other. It could just be a combo of a guy who is admittedly not super-accurate playing with guys who really require QBs who are. All for an OC in his 4th season of coaching at any level who is undoubtedly still experiencing growing pains.

But I don't think Romo is better with Witten though because they are buds, and hang out and work together on things. Austin and Crayton have been on the team as long or longer than Romo and he's certainly spent a ton of time with them. I think they are better together because Witten is the only one of them with proven ability.

And I don't think its because they are buds that on 3rd and critical Romo almost always locks in on Witten - I think its because he's the only one he trusts to be exactly where he's supposed to be.

I do hope Williams has a break out game Thursday and gets some confidence, because I do think that has become an issue now too.

 

[ethiostar]

Why the rush to blame a single person for the offensive struggle anyways? There are way too many variables at play for it to be that simple.

 

[BlindFaith]

I'm not sure its one or the other. It could just be a combo of a guy who is admittedly not super-accurate playing with guys who really require QBs who are. All for an OC in his 4th season of coaching at any level who is undoubtedly still experiencing growing pains.

Now that's something I can endorse. It's a combination of things.

I still point more of the blame on OC an QB than I do WR, but there is room for improvement there as well.

I guess I've come down so hard on Romo because he seems to be deflecting much of the blame from this forum. Roy has gotten far too much blame. And I think the opinion is mixed on Garrett.

Romo has been better in the past. I will give him credit for that. He lost me with the Pitt game though. I tried again this year to pull for him, but I've seen him digress.

I'll still root for him to do well and I hope he does. Hell, I have his jersey. I'm just not one to be fooled twice and I'm starting to feel that way.

 

[Stautner]

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm pointing out facts and numbers to back them up.

Tell me how many drops Roy has. Tell me how many bad routes he ran. Show me the film.

The numbers I posted are clear in that the completion percentages to his wideouts, ALL OF THEM, are dramatically lower than to his TE and are dramatically lower than the numbers put up by elite level QBs and offenses.

To deny that simply indicates you have an agenda with Roy and are oblivious or simply ignorant to the fact.

I'm not denying anything about Romo. I agree completely that Romo has had some accuracy problems, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

Once again, if Romo throws an uncatchable pass, THAT DOES NOT FALL ON WILLIAMS. Do the bold letters help you understand it better? I've said it 2-3 times but I guess you've missed it.

If Roy drops a pass you can't say he didn't drop it or that the drop was Romo's fault because 3 plays earlier Romo threw a bad pass.


What you are saying does not address Roy's drops, or Roy's inability to make the tough catches that may not officially qualify as drops but that quality recievers make much of the time, or Roy's inability to get at least somewhat in sync with Romo the way the other receivers have.

Once again, and I'll type it in bold again so you will see it this time, ROMO MISTHROWING AT TIMES DOES NOT EXPLAIN AWAY ALL THAT.

 

[wileedog]

Romo has been better in the past. I will give him credit for that. He lost me with the Pitt game though. I tried again this year to pull for him, but I've seen him digress.
.

Well for my part I hated the Roy trade, but really really thought he would at least be decent. Not 1st rounder, 3rd rounder $45M good, but I thought he could pick up at least some of the slack of the departed Mouthy One. Unfortunately he hasn't come close, and I'm a little tired of the "everyone gets better passes than me" schtick from him.

Mostly I hope we draft a WR next year, because I'm not sure the answer is on the roster. I think Austin will be a fine, even great #2 when there is a bonafide #1 across from him, but I don't trust him to be a much more than a better Alvin Harper.

 

[DallasEast]

Why the rush to blame a single person for the offensive struggle anyways? There are way too many variables at play for it to be that simple.

:shush: You're interrupting an epic ruing!

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

The media (and the fans have been sucked right in) have finally found the spark they have been looking for to get the forest fire going. Roy, because of the contract and the amount of draft picks was ALWAYS going to be a prime canidate...and now they have got all the evidence they need (because for those that missed the memo, we were just eliminated from the playoffs and/or playoff race) to take off and run with this. Once again, we have allowed the enemy on the FIELD to be an afterthought! Roy is going to have to spend the rest of the season trying to beat the MEDIA first.....then the opposition. Winning in Dallas is NEVER enough. And the funny thing is we really have not WON anything or LOST anything...but you would think we just got eliminated from the playoffs with all the swirl that is going on. I have been a fan a long time...and just when I thought this was finally the season where we could just play football and concentrate on the team in the other lockeroom...the style police are slowly gaining control of the Cowboy lockeroom!

 

[DallasEast]

SHOOT ME! :bang2: ​