RELEASED Thornton released

[xwalker]

the amount of misses on defensive players for this current front office are staggering.

They seriously need to find someone who can identify talent or they need to switch the scheme but that won't happen after building the roster around this scheme for 3 seasons.

Its really kind of pathetic how much they have been wrong on defensive talent. This is andy reid scouting wr level bad.

Who are talent misses since they've been in this scheme?

Greory was not a talent miss.

Greg Hardy was good on the field.

Claiborne was during the Rob Ryan era. Same with Carr.

T.Crawford is overpaid but not a miss.

They made T McClain into a quality player.

DLaw was really good the last time he was healthy (2015).

 

[xwalker]

Neal is a 1/3/5. But a 1 first. I'd say he's a 1/3 as he can shoot as well as shoot and hold or hold.

He is not a 1tech. He can barely hold up against the run at 3tech.

Neither DT plays a true 1tech on obvious passing downs although the alignment sometimes looks similar.

He was 261 pounds when drafted.

Teams rarely use stubby players at 5tech.

 

[Zordon]

it absolutely was and that points out another flaw in the front office. Making bad decisions on defensive hires. Rob Ryan being hired was a travesty. Then to spend rescources like they did for players he wanted was even worse.

I still insist he was fired not for poor performance or the struggles of the defense but because of the way he handled himself at Cincy that day when he got the 15 yard penalty. I think that is why he was fired.

They could have hired todd bowles to run the 34 here and they didnt and he went to arizona and had a great season.

I hope they turn it around this year because I think the D line is better but its a bummer to watch these great offenses have their seasons torpedo'd because of all the poor defensive decisions.

Idk I think Rob Ryan's behavior Mon-Sat was also an issue if the reports of him being totally unprofessional in defensive meetings and having Eberflus run them were true.

Todd Bowles would have been a better personality fit with Garrett. Also, when the Cards passed up on Ray Horton for their HC gig and he couldn't find any other HC opportunities, I would have called him. There's no better stage to showcase for a HC opportunity than Dallas.

 

[theebs]

Idk I think Rob Ryan's behavior Mon-Sat was also an issue if the reports of him being unprofessional in defensive meetings and having Eberflus run them were true.

Todd Bowles would have been a better personality fit with Garrett. Also, when the Cards passed up on Ray Horton for their HC gig and he couldn't find any other HC opportunities, I would have called him. There's no better stage to showcase for a HC opportunity than Dallas.

yea no doubt he did not fit with garrett. Which makes it nuts that he was hired in the first place. I imagine Norv Turner and Belichick spoke highly of him and Garrett accepted that.

Ridiculous. There was still a bunch of talent on that 11 defense and Romo was exceptional that year. The o line was a mess but he still made it all go.

 

[KingintheNorth]

Where are all the fans that criticize the GM all the time for holding on to an unproductive player? Are you going to show up and give due props?

Double edged sword.

Same front office that signed him.

Last two year's free agent class of Thornton and Carroll are extremely underwhelming. Better drafting, but this bargain-hunting, cutesy free agent targeting has not been great.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Neal is better than Thornton

Not at the 1 he wouldn't be. He couldn't handle single blocks unless he beat them with quickness outright. When you are lined up in the A gap and both are going for you it is that much harder to win like that.

He would be Haydenesque getting blown off the ball at the 1.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Had high hopes for him... What happened to this guy?

They projected him to transition from the 2 gap DE he was playing and into a 1T. He struggled and then got hurt.

 

[Floatyworm]

Double edged sword.

Same front office that signed him.

Last two year's free agent class of Thornton and Carroll are extremely underwhelming. Better drafting, but this bargain-hunting, cutesy free agent targeting has not been great.

yup...agree.

 

[TheHerd]

Double edged sword.

Same front office that signed him.

Last two year's free agent class of Thornton and Carroll are extremely underwhelming. Better drafting, but this bargain-hunting, cutesy free agent targeting has not been great.

It's a bargain hunting front office. They'd rather buy a 5000 VW for 3500 than spend 50k for a Corvette, as would I. Better value and keeps your options open. But in a race, I'd rather have the Corvette!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

DLaw had a down year last year but he was a rising star the previous two years. Jury is out.
Jones has rounded into a solid starter. He needs to start turning the ball over more to take the step to pro bowl level.
Gregory obviously had talent. He couldn't stop smoking the weed.
Jaylon will start showing what he can do in one weeks time.
98 generates consistent pressure but cannot stay completely healthy even if he plays through it. Annually underrated.
Hitchens has started multiple seasons as a 4th round pick. He keeps improving too. Injury is a setback but solid player.
Wilson broke into a starting role last year. Another great 4th round pick.
Collins broke out as a rookie and is primed for a big season.
Irving flashes dominance at the age of 22.
Thornton could not transition from the 3-4 to our 4-3. Disappointing.
Mayowa got 6 sacks transitioning from the 3-4 and really had the light come on at the end of last season. Good rotation DE.
Tapper redshirted last year due to a back injury and still working on his technique and timing. His explosiveness off the line is apparent and DE are a position that often takes time to put things together.

I don't think they've done that bad. The successes have been more plentiful than failure. We just have not had the elite season out of anyone yet. Just a lot of solid. Nonetheless the defense has performed better each year for the past 4.

People sure do like to overreact to the immediate anecdote though.

 

[jobberone]

He is not a 1tech. He can barely hold up against the run at 3tech.

Neither DT plays a true 1tech on obvious passing downs although the alignment sometimes looks similar.

He was 261 pounds when drafted.

Teams rarely use stubby players at 5tech.

We don't hold in place often. He does play the one here and he is more a 1/3 as opposed to a 3/1. Everyone shoots here most of the time. And he has played the 5 although that's rare for a player built like him. It's just an aside not an important role for him. And Neal is listed at 298.

 

[rpntex]

Is there a message in this for Crawford?? He is another grossly overpaid stiff.

BIG difference between the two players… Crawford has shown production in spurts, but he has been injured so much that his playing time has been hampered. Compound that with the fact that he is constantly playing a different position – and rarely the one is best suited for (3-tech), and it goes a long way toward explaining his performance. Oh, he is still overpaid, but at least he has produced. I don't believe we can say anything positive about Thorton, however.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

That's the game you play when you sign free agents.

In this case, it's a big disappointment.

Bring him back after week one at a reduced rate?

If you're going to make a free agent mistake...make it to he tune of 4 years 17MM.

 

[unionjack8]

At what point is marinelli questioned on his choice if DL?

Where are all the fans that criticize the GM all the time for holding on to an unproductive player? Are you going to show up and give due props?

I honestly pin blame on marinelli. 100% he tells jj who he wants

 

[unionjack8]

its not about money its about evaluation. They could have payed brian orakpo what they used on hardy and he has been better than anyone we have the past two years in Tennessee. The decisions they have made on defense in the draft are theirs to own, they took risks and they have all failed.

its this damn defensive scheme. You need a super specific type of defensive end and they are obsessed with the 3 technique tackle which is also difficult to find. Bill Parcells told Jerry that in the modern nfl it is so hard to find Defensive ends for the 43 we always played that it is better to be 34 because of the different types of athletes that can help you. We are seeing this now just like before parcells got here and finding ends has become impossible again.

now having said that the patriots dont have a single pass rusher on their team and they have played a lot of four man fronts but they have the greatest defensive coach ever so they figure it out.

anyway. Its like they can't miss on offensive talent and can hit on defensive talent.

Preach it

 

[rpntex]

its not about money its about evaluation. They could have payed brian orakpo what they used on hardy and he has been better than anyone we have the past two years in Tennessee. The decisions they have made on defense in the draft are theirs to own, they took risks and they have all failed.

its this damn defensive scheme. You need a super specific type of defensive end and they are obsessed with the 3 technique tackle which is also difficult to find. Bill Parcells told Jerry that in the modern nfl it is so hard to find Defensive ends for the 43 we always played that it is better to be 34 because of the different types of athletes that can help you. We are seeing this now just like before parcells got here and finding ends has become impossible again.

now having said that the patriots dont have a single pass rusher on their team and they have played a lot of four man fronts but they have the greatest defensive coach ever so they figure it out.

anyway. Its like they can't miss on offensive talent and can hit on defensive talent.

Actually, it IS about money…

The majority of the guys we have drafted/signed, since Will McClay took over personnel, have played at a level commensurate with what the Cowboys invested in them. Not all of them (Thornton, for instance), but most of them.

You cannot expect to get an impact pass rusher for $3 million per season. What you can expect is someone who gets eight sacks or so… like Mayowa.

What are your expectations for a linebacker drafted in the fourth round? Do you really think you're getting a perennial all pro? Or, more likely, are you getting a solid inconsistent contributor – good tackler, good run defender, average coverage skills, etc. ? Does not Hitchens fit that description to a T?

And rarely do you get an all pro defensive tackle in the third round. Collins is showing the potential to be just that, however.

People can throw out Brandon car and Claiborne all day long, but remember, those guys were brought in by a regime before Mcclay. There is nothing wrong with the talent evaluation skills on the scouting staff. If the front office chose to invest more resources on the defensive side, you would see better production. It's that old saying "you get what you pay for".

 

[silver]

Paea made Thornton expendable. 1Tech guys only play on running downs in this defense, so there was no point in keeping two similar guys with little upside. Once the suspended guys return, specially Irving, some other DT will be cut or at least be inactive. Guys like Irving and Crafowrd and to some extent Charlton have position flex. Thornton was the weakest link.

 

[visionary]

It's a bargain hunting front office. They'd rather buy a 5000 VW for 3500 than spend 50k for a Corvette, as would I. Better value and keeps your options open. But in a race, I'd rather have the Corvette!

The problem is that you end up in a beat up car that will break down

 

[visionary]

Paea made Thornton expendable. 1Tech guys only play on running downs in this defense, so there was no point in keeping two similar guys with little upside. Once the suspended guys return, specially Irving, some other DT will be cut or at least be inactive. Guys like Irving and Crafowrd and to some extent Charlton have position flex. Thornton was the weakest link.

This

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

its not about money its about evaluation. They could have payed brian orakpo what they used on hardy and he has been better than anyone we have the past two years in Tennessee. The decisions they have made on defense in the draft are theirs to own, they took risks and they have all failed.

its this damn defensive scheme. You need a super specific type of defensive end and they are obsessed with the 3 technique tackle which is also difficult to find. Bill Parcells told Jerry that in the modern nfl it is so hard to find Defensive ends for the 43 we always played that it is better to be 34 because of the different types of athletes that can help you. We are seeing this now just like before parcells got here and finding ends has become impossible again.

now having said that the patriots dont have a single pass rusher on their team and they have played a lot of four man fronts but they have the greatest defensive coach ever so they figure it out.

anyway. Its like they can't miss on offensive talent and can hit on defensive talent.

You are making an assumption that Orakpo was willing to come over here. He went to the AFC. The decisions are not completely their own. In FA it takes two to tango.

The RDE needing to be the 265 speed end is a lie to me. Marinelli has done it with the 285 lbs Peppers and the 265 lbs Rice. The LB position requires athletes but are interchangeable. Much the same with the secondary. The 3T is the hard one to find needing to be able to penetrate with quickness and anchor with power. Collins fits the mold and to this point has looked the part.

The issue is not that they have not hit. The starting lineup is not devoid of drafted talent. They just need couple guys like Jones, Collins, Irving, DLaw, Jaylon, and this year's crop to develop and hit big.