Vick Indicted

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
abersonc;1554202 said:
A lawyer will have to clarify this but I would think the jury system differs for federal charges. The OJ trial was a "triumph" for the art/science of jury selection -- OJ's team was able to use their tremendous resources to determine the profile of a jury that was most likely to acquit. Part of the issue here was that the prosecution simply could not match the work the defense was doing here so they ended up making lots of decisions that likely helped the defense.

Anyone know what the federal trial system jury selection (voir dire) procedure looks like?

The defense changed what and who was on trial, as I said I don't look at these trails as finding the truth. OJ team was not looking for truth they were looking to raise doubt and with that doubt they knew they could get him off. Granted their jury selection played a hugh part they found when getting opinion of the different people who would be involved with the case many Jurors found Marsha Clarke a ***** this became more about who the jury like and did not like. Same with the Mendez trail, Abrams played that jury and tried to present her clients as some poor abused kids despite the fact the mother who was shot had registration papers for UCLA for one of her killer kids. Thankfully the 2nd trail went different but anyone who wants to think that the court is the place where we find the truth is being very naive.
 

sandy007

New Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
0
I guess the Falcons regret not keeping Schaub and sit Vick down if the case overshadows the team.

The government must have a good case because Vick is high-profile and the usually win in high-profile cases.
 

AbeBeta

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,685
Reaction score
12,394
Teague31;1554204 said:
voir dire is pretty much the same but in federal court the judge will often ask the questions that the two sides have submitted in advance. the real differences lie in the rules of evidence.. the gov't can get away with much more as far as hearsay, etc. in federal court than they can in state court.

what is the jury pool like? how is it drawn?
 

Teague31

Defender of the Star
Messages
18,222
Reaction score
22,842
the jury pool you pull from in federal court is much larger because you are pulling from an entire federal district as opposed to a single county. normally that results in a more educated pool which usually favors the government.
 

Yeagermeister

Well-Known Member
Messages
47,629
Reaction score
117
Teague31;1554216 said:
the jury pool you pull from in federal court is much larger because you are pulling from an entire federal district as opposed to a single county. normally that results in a more educated pool which usually favors the government.

I got called for Federal jury duty last year but the defendant plead guilty before we made it in to the court.
 

Big Dakota

New Member
Messages
11,876
Reaction score
0
Vick faces different kind of pressure now

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


ATLANTA -- During the first three months of an off-field soap opera that Tuesday afternoon was suddenly extended indefinitely, Michael Vick somehow managed to remain above the fray.

He was not oblivious to the fact his name was linked to a reprehensible and distasteful pastime said to take place on the property of a home he owned in Surry County, Va. But Vick was apparently impervious as federal agents dug, literally, into his past for links that might tie him to a dogfighting ring.

To a man, the people who sign his pricey paychecks and a new coaching staff charged with teaching Vick the third different offense in which he has worked in six years insisted that this was his best offseason ever. Vick was more diligent, worked harder on the field and in the classroom and took on a weightier mantle of leadership than he had at any previous time in his career.

Several teammates even wondered aloud, in conversations with ESPN.com, how Vick had managed to retain such remarkable focus in the teeth of a gathering storm. A few suggested that the team's complex in Flowery Branch, Ga., where Vick hadn't exactly been a frequent voluntary visitor in springs past, had become his sanctuary. The athletic arrogance that Vick had displayed so often in the past, which manifested itself in rumors that he really didn't feel he needed to be tutored on the game's finer points, was absent.

Humility and work ethic, it seemed, had become Vick hallmarks this spring.

Poised to enter the most critical season of his career on the field, even some internal detractors noted that Vick seemed to comprehend how crucial 2007 might be for him.

But now that Vick has officially been dragged into the fight, indicted on two felony counts by a federal court, one has to wonder about the unwavering focus he demonstrated during his tumultuous offseason. And moving forward into the 2007 season, provided Vick is permitted by commissioner Roger Goodell to continue playing while due process runs its course, the question of how he now responds on the field is a critical one here.

That is not to trivialize the serious off-field issues that Vick and his defense team face. In a statement released Tuesday evening, the league termed dogfighting "cruel, degrading and illegal," and it is certainly all that and perhaps more. But for every extracurricular indiscretion in the NFL, no matter how unsavory, there is an undeniable football component.

And the football component for the Atlanta Falcons right now, discounting all the ancillary ramifications, is whether or not Vick can continue to be a viable player and a leader for the team. Can the man who is already a lightning rod, and figures to be even more so now, even play at a functional level in the face of what lies ahead? Or should the Falcons, no matter the legal timeline upcoming, suggest he take a leave of absence?

The latter option may be discussed, but don't bet on it occurring.

A person who spoke with Vick at length after the indictments were announced said that the quarterback was "devastated" by the news. Whether those feelings were feigned or not, we can't say, because we weren't party to the conversation. But in reading the indictments, it isn't as if Vick's name is simply sprinkled into the federal documents. The pages are actually rife with references to the Atlanta star.

In late May, two federal law enforcement officials told ESPN.com they believed there was sufficient evidence to eventually indict Vick, but they were less certain of mounting a successful prosecution. There is a reason, however, that the feds own a conviction rate of better than 95 percent. The government typically doesn't indict unless it knows it can probably convict, and that should be unsettling news for the Falcons and their quarterback.

On July 7, a day after the latest raid on Vick's property, one of those same federal sources told ESPN.com for a column that the quarterback was still part of the investigation. "Just because you've got a lot of links [lying] around doesn't mean you can call in a chain," the source said. "But it also doesn't mean you abandon the notion of seeing if those links might someday become a chain."

With all of that, all the signs pointing to the fact he was clearly not out of the woods, Vick could not have been particularly comfortable with his status.

Still, whether it was natural arrogance or the misperception he was beyond the reach of the investigation, Vick was blindsided by Tuesday's news, as was his coterie of advisors. Only 10 minutes before the news of the indictments broke, we were on the phone with a Vick confidant who didn't know what was to transpire. "This is going to be a test for Michael, that's for sure," the person acknowledged later in the evening.

But not only for Vick.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank, still out of the country Tuesday, faces a test of loyalty. Vick has been at times like a surrogate son to Blank, who has been often criticized locally for what is perceived as preferential treatment of his quarterback. But there came a point, perhaps when Blank awarded Vick a record $130 million, when the tenor of the relationship changed. Blank is all about image and, more than the dollar sign attached to Vick, it is the stigma his star could potentially carry that may concern him most.

Goodell certainly faces a litmus test, given the sanctions he has already levied against players such as Tennessee cornerback Pacman Jones, Cincinnati wide receiver Chris Henry and former Chicago defensive tackle Tank Johnson. It should be pointed out, however, that, unlike the players suspended by Goodell to this point, Vick is not a repeat offender in the eyes of the NFL. His actions at times have been offensive, but have never earned him a demerit under Goodell's stewardship. So the Tuesday indictments, in and of themselves, may not be grounds for action by the commissioner.

That said, Goodell will be under intense pressure from many quarters, given the unsavory nature of the charges, to do something. It's hard to fathom that a player who has been a poster boy of sorts for the NFL, certainly the face of professional football in this city, might now be rendered the subject of a mug shot.

But make no mistake, guilty or not, Vick is a marked man in the eyes of many. Already the most polarizing sports personality in the city, sometimes along racial lines, he figures to be a divisive figure and an easy target even at homes games now. The notion of dogfighting stirs repulsive passion even in those who don't carry a PETA or Humane Society membership card around. The electrifying Vick is soon to be zapped by the catcalls of those who have already made up their minds about him.

His arduous offseason issues aside, the 2007 season figured to be a tough test for Vick, who will be playing for a new, more demanding coach and in a new offense in which the standard is a 65 percent completion rate. That's a lot to heap on a guy who has yet to evolve into a complete quarterback, who doesn't handle change well, and who owns a career completion mark of less than 55 percent.
But all of those elements combined don't equal the kind of pressure Vick will now confront under the scrutiny of federal officials and fans who believe the legal authorities unearthed more than just dog carcasses as part of their investigation.

Able to stay above the fight to this point, Vick is suddenly at the center of it, and he will be battling not only for his career but also for his reputation.

In the July 7 column cited above, we noted that Vick should not exhale just yet. On Tuesday, his breathing just got a lot more labored.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior writer with ESPN.com.
 

StanleySpadowski

Active Member
Messages
4,815
Reaction score
0
Vick's done....His only hope is to plead this out and hope to have a few bucks left for when he gets out.

He's facing the "rocket docket" in Richmond so it wouldn't surprise me to see this go to trial by September and the government has a 90+% conviction rate in that court so prison is likely, especially with at least four corroberating witnesses and at least one undercover law enforcement agent who can place him at the scene of a dog fight.

The only thing that appears to help Vick at all is the original Surrey County raid. It appears that Vick's dogfighting has been on the federal radar for quite some time and he narrowly missed indictment in another case two years ago. They'd slowly been building a solid case against him when the local drug raid uncovered what had been happening at the property. This forced the feds to reveal their involvement so there is a slight possibility that the government is acting before all their ducks are in a row.

Even after a plea, he'll face forfeiture of some assests that were derived from or used in the commision of his crime. He just has to hope that they don't go after his primary residence if he placed any phone calls from there or there's evidence that a meeting took place there. Then he'll face an IRS proceeding regarding his failure to report income so that'll take a chunk.
 

Concord

Mr. Buckeye
Messages
12,825
Reaction score
119
superpunk;1554197 said:
I am an attorney.

butaan18.jpg


I am monitoring this thread.

:laugh2:
 

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....
Messages
58,929
Reaction score
27,716
As was briefly touched upon earlier in the post, what happens if Vick losses this case. Do they take him out back and provide shock theropy? Does he get hanged, drowned or generally beaten till he is dead?

Of course, this language is a bit extreme so I appoligize for that, however, it is a relivant comparative to what has been going on at that compound. Just sad that this young man can not see how devicive his behavior has been.
 

joseephuss

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,041
Reaction score
6,920
He should plead insanity and as evidence show some of his game tape where he makes some bad decisions. :p:
 

sacase

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,348
Reaction score
2,612
If Vick is found guilty then I will condemn him, but at this point I won't. I neither like nor dislike Vick as a person (I don’t know him) or a player (I don’t worry about the Falcon’s). Honestly the Vick thing, is more of a passing curiosity to me, since it really doesn’t affect me or my life an any way. I actually find it entertaining to see how much people dislike him.

I don't see Vick being brought up on RICO charges at all. Right now they only have him on one charge and that is a conspiracy charge. I don't believe that falls under the 35 crimes under RICO. Also the charge they have him on is sponsoring a dog in a fight. It is not for running the whole dog fighting ring. If he was running the whole ring then the racketeering charges would apply and he could be punished under RICO. From the evidence in the indictment it seems that he only participated.

One question I do have about RICO laws: do you have to have done something 2 or more times or do you have to be charged with 2 or more counts.

One thing I do find odd is that they only have him for one count of sponsoring a dog in a fight but they have him listed at dog fights at various times. From my understanding each time he attended he was in violation and he could have had a charge each time he attended.

One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.
 

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....
Messages
58,929
Reaction score
27,716
joseephuss;1554249 said:
He should plead insanity and as evidence show some of his game tape where he makes some bad decisions. :p:

Another good option for the man. When I first looked at this thing, I figured there was no way he could escape conviction but there have been at least two suggestions that might actually work, this being one of them.

;)
 

Chocolate Lab

Run-loving Dino
Messages
37,128
Reaction score
11,485
sacase;1554253 said:
If Vick is found guilty then I will condemn him, but at this point I won't. I neither like nor dislike Vick as a person (I don’t know him) or a player (I don’t worry about the Falcon’s). Honestly the Vick thing, is more of a passing curiosity to me, since it really doesn’t affect me or my life an any way. I actually find it entertaining to see how much people dislike him.

I don't see Vick being brought up on RICO charges at all. Right now they only have him on one charge and that is a conspiracy charge. I don't believe that falls under the 35 crimes under RICO. Also the charge they have him on is sponsoring a dog in a fight. It is not for running the whole dog fighting ring. If he was running the whole ring then the racketeering charges would apply and he could be punished under RICO. From the evidence in the indictment it seems that he only participated.

One question I do have about RICO laws: do you have to have done something 2 or more times or do you have to be charged with 2 or more counts.

One thing I do find odd is that they only have him for one count of sponsoring a dog in a fight but they have him listed at dog fights at various times. From my understanding each time he attended he was in violation and he could have had a charge each time he attended.

One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.

Absolutely unbelievable.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
sacase;1554253 said:
If Vick is found guilty then I will condemn him, but at this point I won't. I neither like nor dislike Vick as a person (I don’t know him) or a player (I don’t worry about the Falcon’s). Honestly the Vick thing, is more of a passing curiosity to me, since it really doesn’t affect me or my life an any way. I actually find it entertaining to see how much people dislike him.

I don't see Vick being brought up on RICO charges at all. Right now they only have him on one charge and that is a conspiracy charge. I don't believe that falls under the 35 crimes under RICO. Also the charge they have him on is sponsoring a dog in a fight. It is not for running the whole dog fighting ring. If he was running the whole ring then the racketeering charges would apply and he could be punished under RICO. From the evidence in the indictment it seems that he only participated.

One question I do have about RICO laws: do you have to have done something 2 or more times or do you have to be charged with 2 or more counts.

One thing I do find odd is that they only have him for one count of sponsoring a dog in a fight but they have him listed at dog fights at various times. From my understanding each time he attended he was in violation and he could have had a charge each time he attended.

One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.

It is only dog fighting and it is against the law. This has nothing to do with hate for Vick I would feel the same about any idiot who was out there doing these cruel acts. While animal welfare may mean nothing to you it does to the vast majority of people in this country who strongly oppose these types of acts.
 

AbeBeta

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,685
Reaction score
12,394
What happens if Vick turns informant on his friends? Folks here assume that Vick is the "big fish" -- but I don't think that any of us believe that Vick was running the day to day operations - as we know, Vick did have a day job that likely limited his availability for such activities.

To me, that suggests that Vick would likely be the one they are pressuring to testify.
 

joseephuss

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,041
Reaction score
6,920
I don't see the league doing anything to Vick until this has played out a lot longer. It is very different from the Pacman, Henry and Tank cases.

Pacman broke a specific NFL rule about not reporting his arrests to go along with some pending cases that were near the end.

Henry already pled guilty in a case and his pending cases were also near the end.

Tank was found guilty and served jail time.

Vick's case is just now really getting started. It will take some time to see what direction it will go in, so I think the NFL will wait because this is a complicated case. The pending cases against Pacman and Henry were straight forward and had gotten to the point where all sides had an idea of how they would possibly end. It is so early in the Vick case that the possibilities are endless.

I think in the end Vick will get a league suspension, but it is way too early to determine the severity. If things go worse case it won't matter what the league does because he will be seeing jail time. He will play this year, but after that his future is uncertain.
 

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....
Messages
58,929
Reaction score
27,716
sacase;1554253 said:
If Vick is found guilty then I will condemn him, but at this point I won't. I neither like nor dislike Vick as a person (I don’t know him) or a player (I don’t worry about the Falcon’s). Honestly the Vick thing, is more of a passing curiosity to me, since it really doesn’t affect me or my life an any way. I actually find it entertaining to see how much people dislike him.

I don't see Vick being brought up on RICO charges at all. Right now they only have him on one charge and that is a conspiracy charge. I don't believe that falls under the 35 crimes under RICO. Also the charge they have him on is sponsoring a dog in a fight. It is not for running the whole dog fighting ring. If he was running the whole ring then the racketeering charges would apply and he could be punished under RICO. From the evidence in the indictment it seems that he only participated.

One question I do have about RICO laws: do you have to have done something 2 or more times or do you have to be charged with 2 or more counts.

One thing I do find odd is that they only have him for one count of sponsoring a dog in a fight but they have him listed at dog fights at various times. From my understanding each time he attended he was in violation and he could have had a charge each time he attended.

One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.


Dog fighting is a Federal offense. I don't think it's as easy as paying a fine and going about your business. I definatly see RICO in play here. They have him in multiple states conducting gambling and or fighting. Emotion is irrelivant. When the Feds drew up this list of charges, they were not doing it with emotion as the driving force. They looked at the evidence and decided what they had a realistic chance of convicting him on. The discussion might be of an emotional variety but the case, itself, is devoid of any such emotion. It's there in black and white and I think there going to get him.
 

Vintage

The Cult of Jib
Messages
16,714
Reaction score
4,888
Chocolate Lab;1554257 said:
Absolutely unbelievable.


Well, he's partially right.

The government punishes people involved in Enron more so than dog fighting...

Which is understandable. Money affects the government, economy, and more people than dog fighting.

I disagree with him in that its not serious (the government does classify it as a felony).
 

AbeBeta

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,685
Reaction score
12,394
sacase;1554253 said:
One of my coworkers put it best. If you take a step back and take the emotion out of it; when it comes down to it, its only dog fighting. Chances are even if he gets convicted he pays a fine and that is it. It is rather ridiculous to compare dog fighting to Enron. Enron hurt a lot of people as well as took money out of the federal government’s pocket. Dog fighting only hurt the dogs.

It is also a gambling activity -- that's a whole different class of crime there.
 

joseephuss

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,041
Reaction score
6,920
abersonc;1554262 said:
What happens if Vick turns informant on his friends? Folks here assume that Vick is the "big fish" -- but I don't think that any of us believe that Vick was running the day to day operations - as we know, Vick did have a day job that likely limited his availability for such activities.

To me, that suggests that Vick would likely be the one they are pressuring to testify.

Vick is the one with the money. That could make him the big fish. You make a good point though that someone else probably was running the show. A mafia boss is rarely running the day to day operations. He is just the one with the money, power and connections.
 
Top