Vick Indicted

[Vintage]

It is also a gambling activity -- that's a whole different class of crime there.

Illegal gambling, which means they weren't reporting their incomes properly, most likely. And thus, the government couldn't tax them appropriately.

 

[AbeBeta]

I don't see the league doing anything to Vick until this has played out a lot longer. It is very different from the Pacman, Henry and Tank cases.

Pacman broke a specific NFL rule about not reporting his arrests to go along with some pending cases that were near the end.

Henry already pled guilty in a case and his pending cases were also near the end.

Tank was found guilty and served jail time.

Vick's case is just now really getting started. It will take some time to see what direction it will go in, so I think the NFL will wait because this is a complicated case. The pending cases against Pacman and Henry were straight forward and had gotten to the point where all sides had an idea of how they would possibly end. It is so early in the Vick case that the possibilities are endless.

I think in the end Vick will get a league suspension, but it is way too early to determine the severity. If things go worse case it won't matter what the league does because he will be seeing jail time. He will play this year, but after that his future is uncertain.

and Vick told the commish he knew nothing about the dog fighting -- and the feds investigation -- with which NFL security has been reported to be participating -- suggests otherwise -- the league and the feds have investigated the situation and based on the information they uncovered, Goodell might think he's got enough to suspend Vick at this point.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't see the league doing anything to Vick until this has played out a lot longer. It is very different from the Pacman, Henry and Tank cases.

Pacman broke a specific NFL rule about not reporting his arrests to go along with some pending cases that were near the end.

Henry already pled guilty in a case and his pending cases were also near the end.

Tank was found guilty and served jail time.

Vick's case is just now really getting started. It will take some time to see what direction it will go in, so I think the NFL will wait because this is a complicated case. The pending cases against Pacman and Henry were straight forward and had gotten to the point where all sides had an idea of how they would possibly end. It is so early in the Vick case that the possibilities are endless.

I think in the end Vick will get a league suspension, but it is way too early to determine the severity. If things go worse case it won't matter what the league does because he will be seeing jail time. He will play this year, but after that his future is uncertain.

ESPN Chris Mortenson said after talking to some league officals that because guys like Pacman and Tank had past history of problem the league was not going to give the benifet of the doubt thus punishment was handed down quick. In this case they are keeping a close eye and may hold off until more information comes forward.

 

[sacase]

Dog fighting is a Federal offense. I don't think it's as easy as paying a fine and going about your business. I definatly see RICO in play here. They have him in multiple states conducting gambling and or fighting. Emotion is irrelivant. When the Feds drew up this list of charges, they were not doing it with emotion as the driving force. They looked at the evidence and decided what they had a realistic chance of convicting him on. The discussion might be of an emotional variety but the case, itself, is devoid of any such emotion. It's there in black and white and I think there going to get him.

And when the Feds drew up the charges they didn't even mention RICO or Rackateering. People are just making stuff up and adding it in.

Look I personally find some of the things people do to dogs disgusting. I quit hunting becuase I felt bad for the birds. But comapred to taking hundredes of people's life savings and ruining lives dog fighting is very minor, especially when he was a just a participant. People get convicted in Federal court every day. Some of them pay fines, some of them go to jail. Federal court does not mean automaticl jail time.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What happens if Vick turns informant on his friends? Folks here assume that Vick is the "big fish" -- but I don't think that any of us believe that Vick was running the day to day operations - as we know, Vick did have a day job that likely limited his availability for such activities.

To me, that suggests that Vick would likely be the one they are pressuring to testify.

It's interesting you mention this. According to ESPN legal assets, the Feds are indeed going after Vick. They view him as the driving force behind this whole thing, which is essentially correct. They can tie him to the start up money, the property that houses the opperation, the purchase of the tools needed to conduct the opperation, the licenses used as the front, the property improvements needed to hide the opportation, the purchase of materials used to feed, care for and even build the dogs into fighting stature, the money used to set up the fights and lastly the money used to transport the dogs. He is the focal point of this case. They are not going after any of the guys doing the day to day stuff. I think Vick is the guy they are trying to nail here.

 

[sacase]

It is also a gambling activity -- that's a whole different class of crime there.

He wasn't charged with it in the federal case.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

ESPN Chris Mortenson said after talking to some league officals that because guys like Pacman and Tank had past history of problem the league was not going to give the benifet of the doubt thus punishment was handed down quick. In this case they are keeping a close eye and may hold off until more information comes forward.

One thing I learned from hearing Mort on ESPN radio last night is that dbair is right: Mort is a huge Vick defender.

I almost don't think Mort had read the indictment, as much as he was trying to gloss this over. I hope he hadn't.

 

[Doomsday101]

And when the Feds drew up the charges they didn't even mention RICO or Rackateering. People are just making stuff up and adding it in.

Look I personally find some of the things people do to dogs disgusting. I quit hunting becuase I felt bad for the birds. But comapred to taking hundredes of people's life savings and ruining lives dog fighting is very minor, especially when he was a just a participant. People get convicted in Federal court every day. Some of them pay fines, some of them go to jail. Federal court does not mean automaticl jail time.

Both acts are wrong be it Enron or this situation. People in the Enron case where convicted and punished. What Vick did is also wrong and if convicted deserves what ever he is given.

 

[sacase]

I disagree with him in that its not serious (the government does classify it as a felony).

I belive any federal offense is a felony.

 

[joseephuss]

ESPN Chris Mortenson said after talking to some league officals that because guys like Pacman and Tank had past history of problem the league was not going to give the benifet of the doubt thus punishment was handed down quick. In this case they are keeping a close eye and may hold off until more information comes forward.

Actually the punishment of Pacman was not handed down quickly. His cases were from last year. I know some questioned why Goodell sought to punish Pacman while Tagliabue waited. It was because they wanted to see how the cases played out. They didn't wait until the very end, but waited long enough to see the general direction.

Tanks case was pretty open and shut. He was found guilty and served jail time. It was a no brainer that he should be suspended, so it happened quickly.

 

[sacase]

Both acts are wrong be it Enron or this situation. People in the Enron case where convicted and punished. What Vick did is also wrong and if convicted deserves what ever he is given.

I agree completly.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And when the Feds drew up the charges they didn't even mention RICO or Rackateering. People are just making stuff up and adding it in.

Look I personally find some of the things people do to dogs disgusting. I quit hunting becuase I felt bad for the birds. But comapred to taking hundredes of people's life savings and ruining lives dog fighting is very minor, especially when he was a just a participant. People get convicted in Federal court every day. Some of them pay fines, some of them go to jail. Federal court does not mean automaticl jail time.

The fact that they named the Kennel as opposed to Vick specifically, leads you to believe it's RICO. If they prove the gambling, that constitutes Rackatering which then sets up RICO, if I understand the process. There are several legal sources on this board that can explain it much better then I. I agree, the average poster probably doesn't understand this well enough to be conclusive but there are a few people posting here who do. I would not be surprised to see them use RICO at all. It simply allows for the Feds to have more access. More leverage.

 

[Doomsday101]

One thing I learned from hearing Mort on ESPN radio last night is that dbair is right: Mort is a huge Vick defender.

I almost don't think Mort had read the indictment, as much as he was trying to gloss this over. I hope he hadn't.

Mort was only saying what the league office was telling him. Guys with a history of problems are not going to be given the benifet of the doubt. How will this impact there view of Vick is anyones guess.

 

[Doomsday101]

Actually the punishment of Pacman was not handed down quickly. His cases were from last year. I know some questioned why Goodell sought to punish Pacman while Tagliabue waited. It was because they wanted to see how the cases played out. They didn't wait until the very end, but waited long enough to see the general direction.

Tanks case was pretty open and shut. He was found guilty and served jail time. It was a no brainer that he should be suspended, so it happened quickly.

I'm just saying punishment was handed down before any trial took place. Pacman pretty much blew any benefit of the doubt after many different run ins with the law. How will the league deal with Vick? Will they let this play out in court before handing down punishment or will they suspended him ahead of time? I don't know the answer to this only what I heard last night

 

[03EBZ06]

He wasn't charged with it in the federal case.

No he wasn't but that isn't to say he won't be charged in later time either. If Feds can prove their case with current charges then they can then charge him with tax evasion later.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm just saying punishment was handed down before any trial took place. Pacman pretty much blew any benefit of the doubt after many different run ins with the law. How will the league deal with Vick? Will they let this play out in court before handing down punishment or will they suspended him ahead of time? I don't know the answer to this only what I heard last night

I think they might have to. Because this is Federal, the Feds are not going to allow any info that might impact the case become public. They may issue a gag order which they are well withing there power to do. This would limit what and when Goodell could do. If reporst are accurate, it may be in court by Novermber, December time frame anyway. This is a nightmare for the Falcons.

 

[iceberg]

What happens if Vick turns informant on his friends? Folks here assume that Vick is the "big fish" -- but I don't think that any of us believe that Vick was running the day to day operations - as we know, Vick did have a day job that likely limited his availability for such activities.

To me, that suggests that Vick would likely be the one they are pressuring to testify.

1. it's vicks house.
2. it's on vicks property
3. in 2002 he told his PR rep that he spends a vast majority of his time at his remote house playing video games and with his dogs
4. he told his PR rep he's got like 50 pittbulls
5. the "bad newz kennels" is named after his hometown paper

now, when the charges come out he's never at that house and clueless as to what was going on there?

i'm only willing to give enough benefit of doubt to the point where i start looking stupid for believing an obvious lie.

vick is a liar and i hope he gets what's coming to him not only for the dog fighting but for his blatant lies in the process.

 

[joseephuss]

I'm just saying punishment was handed down before any trial took place. Pacman pretty much blew any benefit of the doubt after many different run ins with the law. How will the league deal with Vick? Will they let this play out in court before handing down punishment or will they suspended him ahead of time? I don't know the answer to this only what I heard last night

I don't think that is correct. Pacman was never going to be on trial for his offenses. At least a jury trial. It was all handled by a judge and that process had already started before Goodell handed down the suspensions. His cases weren't finished, but Pacman and his attorney's had started the process. Plus those cases were secondary to the punishment of Pacman not reporting his arrests. It didn't matter how those cases ended. He could be free and clear or sentenced to 20 years. He did not report them and that made it possible for him to be punished. Goodell was also careful not to include any mention of the Las Vegas incident, which had not started any formal actions against Pacman.

 

[AtlCB]

:laugh2: Now, the dog biscuit throwing would be a good and funny idea!


But, I think the fans in Atlanta love Senior Mexico so much that they would cheer loudly when he runs his first 10 yards for a first down.... , then they will forget about the dogs like it never happened!

I disagree. I live in Atlanta. You should hear the fans calling into talk radio. They are pissed!!!! If he plays this season, he will get booed.

 

[AtlCB]

One ought not overlook the old adage that "you can indict a ham sandwich."

Nevertheless, this does not portend well for Vick for two reasons:

1. It's a clear indication that the Feds have looked at this and want to proceed with it. If they didn't have the stomach for it, they wouldn't have gone with the indictment. Since they want to go forward, you can bet they have some smoking guns and some further indictments going forward. And that is where RICO might come in.

2. Other individuals were indicted, and they are going to be put in position to potentially "roll over" on others, especially the high-value-target Vick. If some people place him involved after plea bargaining, Vick is in some deep poo.

The scary thing for Vick is that the Feds have a 95% conviction rate!