We should definitely listen to Gil Brandt

[KJJ]

No, this is not true. Ware got to play against Missouri, New Mexico State, LSU and South Carolina in his senior year. So there was film on him going up against the big school competition. I believe his performance against LSU (tapewise, not sure about statwise) is one of the things that helped move him up draft boards.

What helped move him up draft boards was his Senior Bowl and combine performance. It wasn't till after the season that his stock went way up.

 

[Eskimo]

What helped move him up draft boards was his Senior Bowl and combine performance. It wasn't till after the season that his stock went way up.

Yes, those things brought him notoriety. But then you go back and look at game film against the big schools and realize that he was still a dominant player.

So his draft stock wasn't entirely based upon a good combine. It was supported by game film which might have otherwise been discounted.

 

[KJJ]

Yes, those things brought him notoriety. But then you go back and look at game film against the big schools and realize that he was still a dominant player.

So his draft stock wasn't entirely based upon a good combine. It was supported by game film which might have otherwise been discounted.

I'm not saying his entire draft stock was based off his Senior Bowl and combine performances. All season he was looked at as a first round pick because he was dominant but after his Senior Bowl, combine and pro days teams started looking at him as a possible top 10 pick which wasn't the case immediately after the season.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Pass on Campbell please.

In any round. Let him be a pain for some other team.

 

[zrinkill]

If the scouts are worth anything they can determine if he can play or not. I don't want them relying on awards determined by the media.

 

[Eskimo]

I'm not saying his entire draft stock was based off his Senior Bowl and combine performances. All season he was looked at as a first round pick because he was dominant but after his Senior Bowl, combine and pro days teams started looking at him as a possible top 10 pick which wasn't the case immediately after the season.

I wouldn't dispute anything you wrote above. I'm just pointing out that Ware's ability was demonstrated on the field against good competition which made him a safer first round pick then a big school player who didn't distinguish himself (B Campbell) or a small school guy who didn't get a chance to play against big schools. competition.

 

[burmafrd]

Ware was considered a late first rd pick until the combine.

That showed tremendous agility- and remember that we were looking at him as an OLB which is a change of position situation. That is tougher to read.

I listen to Sirius NFL and they have Gil on twice a week. After listening to him over the last couple of years he has been right most of the time on players.

He spends all his time just watching the young players-and about Campbell consider this: he did not get ONE single vote for the ALL CONFERENCE team. NOT ONE REPORTER thought he was good enough. That has to make you think; hard to believe they could ALL BE WRONG.

 

[TheCount]

You want us to listen to Gil Brandt or to you?

 

[Doomsday101]

Brandt started as a scout in 1960 from the Cowboys inception. He did an excellent job from 1960 to around 78-79 and that's about when the Cowboys drafts started going real sour. He was the one who RAVED over Rod Hill in 82 who ended up being one of the biggest draft busts in Cowboys history. His poor talent evaluting is one of the main reasons the Cowboys started declining in the 80's. Brandt built his reputation in the 60's and 70's. I remember how he DROOLED over Gaston Green back in 88 who played for UCLA. He compared him to Tony Dorsett. Green ended up being a complete flop for the Rams. I don't put much weight into Brandts evaluations anymore. Jim Garrett spent most of his career as a player and then a coach. He became a scout much later on and has two sons he groomed to be players. Even at Jim Garretts age I'm sure he's more in tuned with todays game and the modern player than Gil Brandt but he doesn't carry the weight Brandt did when he was with the Cowboys. The Cowboys have alot more scouts now than they did 30-40 years ago. The game passes everyone by eventually players, coaches and scouts.

The game has not changed there is not 1 single offense ran today that was not ran before same with defense zone coverage came into play in the 60's guess what those same zones are ran today you had team ran by Paul Brown who was running the west coast offense before Bill Walsh and SF and the same could be said with the offense that Sid Gilman put into place and offense around the league still run that type of passing offense.

Yes players are bigger and faster so what it is relative to the athletes they compete against. Biggest change is money and attitude now days most players are getting paid much more than the Head Coach who is suppose to oversee them, how many jobs do you know of where the subordinate gets paid more than the supervisor? As for scouting you are still looking for the same things as you always looked for size, speed, agility

 

[Woods]

You want us to listen to Gil Brandt or to you?

rhetorical question, correct?

 

[KJJ]

The game has not changed there is not 1 single offense ran today that was not ran before same with defense zone coverage came into play in the 60's guess what those same zones are ran today you had team ran by Paul Brown who was running the west coast offense before Bill Walsh and SF and the same could be said with the offense that Sid Gilman put into place and offense around the league still run that type of passing offense.

Yes players are bigger and faster so what it is relative to the athletes they compete against. Biggest change is money and attitude now days most players are getting paid much more than the Head Coach who is suppose to oversee them, how many jobs do you know of where the subordinate gets paid more than the supervisor? As for scouting you are still looking for the same things as you always looked for size, speed, agility

The game has changed alot in the last 30-40 years and alot of the players back then couldn't play todays game. There's still tackling and the object of the game is the same but the strategies of defending your opponent and attacking them and getting from one end of the field to the other has changed. The rule changes alone have forced teams to adopt different strategies. No one runs the flex defense anymore and the LB's of 30-40 years ago don't have the speed from sideline to sideline to play into todays defenses. There's alot more projecting on positions and everything has become more specialized. A QB like Vick presents a challenge that teams didn't face 30-40 years ago. That alone forces unique adjustments when you have a QB who can kill you by land and air. Today teams are rotating 2 and sometimes 3 backs all with a particular role. Teams rotate players more on defense than in the past. The drafting process has changed alot also with the combine and all the prodding and poking teams do to potential draft picks trying to avoid making a mistake.

The Packers of the 60's would get mowed over by the shear size of teams today. Olines are averaging at least 50 lbs per man more. I was watching Suh run his 40 at the combine and the guy looked like a freight train running down that track at just over 300 lbs. You never saw 300 lb defensive players back in the day and these players even the ones who look fat can move! You have these hybrid type players now. With bigger, faster, stronger players you have to adopt different strategies. Alot of teams are moving to the 3-4 now. Gone are the days of winning championships with a cloud of dust offense like the Dolphins were doing in the 70's. It's a real passing league now and the numbers QB's put up week after week is staggering compared to years ago.

 

[Doomsday101]

The game has changed alot in the last 30-40 years and alot of the players back then couldn't play todays game. There's still tackling and the object of the game is the same but the strategies of defending your opponent and attacking them and getting from one end of the field to the other has changed. The rule changes alone have forced teams to adopt different strategies. No one runs the flex defense anymore and the LB's of 30-40 years ago don't have the speed from sideline to sideline to play into todays defenses. There's alot more projecting on positions and everything has become more specialized. A QB like Vick presents a challenge that teams didn't face 30-40 years ago. That alone forces unique adjustments when you have a QB who can kill you by land and air. Today teams are rotating 2 and sometimes 3 backs all with a particular role. Teams rotate players more on defense than in the past. The drafting process has changed alot also with the combine and all the prodding and poking teams do to potential draft picks trying to avoid making a mistake.

The Packers of the 60's would get mowed over by the shear size of teams today. Olines are averaging at least 50 lbs per man more. I was watching Suh run his 40 at the combine and the guy looked like a freight train running down that track at just over 300 lbs. You never saw 300 lb defensive players back in the day and these players even the ones who look fat can move! You have these hybrid type players now. With bigger, faster, stronger players you have to adopt different strategies. Alot of teams are moving to the 3-4 now. Gone are the days of winning championships with a cloud of dust offense like the Dolphins were doing in the 70's. It's a real passing league now and the numbers QB's put up week after week is staggering compared to years ago.

The game has not changed that much of course todays players are bigger and faster and play aginst players who are more equal to them as did player in the 80, 70, 60's and so on. They played aginst equal compitition it does not change the game because the players remain equal to their era in which they played.

Saying a team in the 60's would get smoked by one of todays team yes chance are they would because size and speed are not equal but the game itself is still the same game only differance is they are bigger and faster and when judgeing player from a scouts point of view he is juding them vs their own peers not those players from the 70's.

As for real passing league yes they put up number because no longer can a CB bump a WR all the way down the field it was much harder before the rule change but the same attributes that make up a WR is still the same attributes scouts looked for in WR in the past.

 

[KJJ]

The game has not changed that much of course todays players are bigger and faster and play aginst players who are more equal to them as did player in the 80, 70, 60's and so on. They played aginst equal compitition it does not change the game because the players remain equal to their era in which they played.

Saying a team in the 60's would get smoked by one of todays team yes chance are they would because size and speed are not equal but the game itself is still the same game only differance is they are bigger and faster and when judgeing player from a scouts point of view he is juding them vs their own peers not those players from the 70's.

As for real passing league yes they put up number because no longer can a CB bump a WR all the way down the field it was much harder before the rule change but the same attributes that make up a WR is still the same attributes scouts looked for in WR in the past.

I saw an interview with several head coaches including Belichick talk about how the game has changed over the years. Go argue with them because I've covered it all on this topic.

 

[Doomsday101]

I saw an interview with several head coaches including Belichick talk about how the game has changed over the years. Go argue with them because I've covered it all on this topic.

I'm glad you saw that. You keep talking about how the guys today would beat guy in the 60's no one will argue that but you rate players the same way vs their peers today as you would back then. Scouts are not comparing todays player to players in the 60's they look at their skill level based on what they are doing vs people they compete aginst here and now. We have seen rule changes that help make it easier for offense to score but many of todays offense where not invented today they have been around for many years.

 

[CowboyMike]

If the scouts are worth anything they can determine if he can play or not. I don't want them relying on awards determined by the media.

This. This this this this this.

Screw what the media thinks. Tell me what the football guys have evaluated.

 

[jterrell]

Brandt never drafted a player he was head of scouting and gave the information to Landry and Tex.

Also what does the game change mean? Please the game has changed some not allot and the things scouts look at in players is no different today than years back.

Mayock is clearly more in tune with players today because he does more study of them. He is hired by the same entity but paid to be a far more intensive presence.

Mayock is very, very good. He is about as good as it gets honestly. His takes on guys have been eerily accurate. When he doesn't like a guy they tend to fall, when he does they rise. Not saying teams heed him or anything just that what he sees, scouts see.

 

[jterrell]

I'm glad you saw that. You keep talking about how the guys today would beat guy in the 60's no one will argue that but you rate players the same way vs their peers today as you would back then. Scouts are not comparing todays player to players in the 60's they look at their skill level based on what they are doing vs people they compete aginst here and now. We have seen rule changes that help make it easier for offense to score but many of todays offense where not invented today they have been around for many years.

Not really.

Today's game is totally different. You have far more to consider then you did in 1960 and you can draft far fewer players.

Go back and look at the early drafts and just how many guys were total busts.

It's a whole different ball game and rating them is as well.

Landry/Tex/Brandt were one of the pre-cursors to change in scouting and drafting but that meant they were ahead of their time by 10 years, not 50.

Teams have always valued athleticism, speed and quickness to be sure but now there's so much more to it than that.

 

[Doomsday101]

Mayock is clearly more in tune with players today because he does more study of them. He is hired by the same entity but paid to be a far more intensive presence.

Mayock is very, very good. He is about as good as it gets honestly. His takes on guys have been eerily accurate. When he doesn't like a guy they tend to fall, when he does they rise. Not saying teams heed him or anything just that what he sees, scouts see.

I have nothing aginst Mayock and like hearing his view on player he is not the only one I like to hear opinions from though and do not look at him as the be all personel guy.

 

[jterrell]

The game has not changed that much of course todays players are bigger and faster and play aginst players who are more equal to them as did player in the 80, 70, 60's and so on. They played aginst equal compitition it does not change the game because the players remain equal to their era in which they played.

Saying a team in the 60's would get smoked by one of todays team yes chance are they would because size and speed are not equal but the game itself is still the same game only differance is they are bigger and faster and when judgeing player from a scouts point of view he is juding them vs their own peers not those players from the 70's.

As for real passing league yes they put up number because no longer can a CB bump a WR all the way down the field it was much harder before the rule change but the same attributes that make up a WR is still the same attributes scouts looked for in WR in the past.

A team from the 1960's would get drilled today. It wouldn't even be close.

In the 1960's teams were running simple offenses based on blocking by 240 pound OL. You really think they could even a single first down versus an NFL line today with 330 pound DTs and linebackers bigger than the OL plus running faster than the 1960's WRs, much less RBs.

The guys who played in the 60's helped remake the game in the 70's thru 90's. They are part of why the players today are so much better.

High school kids now do more football related work than 1960's pros did. Football is now a year round event starting about 7th grade.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not really.

Today's game is totally different. You have far more to consider then you did in 1960 and you can draft far fewer players.

Go back and look at the early drafts and just how many guys were total busts.

It's a whole different ball game and rating them is as well.

Landry/Tex/Brandt were one of the pre-cursors to change in scouting and drafting but that meant they were ahead of their time by 10 years, not 50.

Teams have always valued athleticism, speed and quickness to be sure but now there's so much more to it than that.

I'm sorry I disagree with you. Yes more rounds to the draft thus more bust but I see many high picks today that are also bust. Just few rds to the draft.

1967 draft 1st rd

1 Bubba Smith DE Michigan State Baltimore Colts
2 Clint Jones RB Michigan State Minnesota Vikings
3 Steve Spurrier QB Florida San Francisco 49ers
4 Bob Griese QB Purdue Miami Dolphins
5 George Webster LB Michigan State Houston Oilers
6 Floyd Little RB Syracuse Denver Broncos
7 Mel Farr RB UCLA Detroit Lions
8 Gene Washington WR Michigan State Minnesota Vikings
9 Bob Hyland C Boston College Green Bay Packers
10 Loyd Phillips DE Arkansas Chicago Bears
11 Cas Banaszek T Northwestern San Francisco 49ers
12 Paul Seiler OT Notre Dame New York Jets
13 Ray McDonald RB Idaho Washington Commanders
14 Ron Billingsley DT Wyoming San Diego Chargers
15 Alan Page DT Notre Dame Minnesota Vikings
16 Dave Williams WR Washington St. Louis Cardinals
17 Gene Upshaw G Texas A&M - Kingsville Oakland Raiders
18 Bob Matheson LB Duke Cleveland Browns
19 Harry Jones RB Arkansas Philadelphia Eagles
20 Jim Detwiler -- Michigan Baltimore Colts
21 John Charles DB Purdue Boston Patriots
22 John Pitts DB Arizona State Buffalo Bills
23 Tom Regner G Notre Dame Houston Oilers
24 Gene Trosch DE Miami (Fla.) Kansas City Chiefs
25 Don Horn QB San Diego State Green Bay Packers
26 Les Kelley LB Alabama New Orleans Saints