We should definitely listen to Gil Brandt

[jterrell]

I have nothing aginst Mayock and like hearing his view on player he is not the only one I like to hear opinions from though and do not look at him as the be all personel guy.

No one is perfect but now with Joel B dead I am not aware of a more accurate forecaster in the media.

Mayock clearly outdistances the guys at BSPN.

Watching the Combine and Senior Bowl stuff the last few years it really is clear just how good a handle he has on these guys. His comments are pretty much prescient to what happens not only at the draft but afterwards. As mnetionned by someone else above he was the first guy I ever heard Ware unblockable and said he could easily handle OLB duties with his athleticism.

The comments by Brandt about Earl Thomas go to show how out of touch he is. Thomas won't last past 15 I promise you.

 

[Doomsday101]

No one is perfect but now with Joel B dead I am not aware of a more accurate forecaster in the media.

Mayock clearly outdistances the guys at BSPN.

Watching the Combine and Senior Bowl stuff the last few years it really is clear just how good a handle he has on these guys. His comments are pretty much prescient to what happens not only at the draft but afterwards. As mnetionned by someone else above he was the first guy I ever heard Ware unblockable and said he could easily handle OLB duties with his athleticism.

The comments by Brandt about Earl Thomas go to show how out of touch he is. Thomas won't last past 15 I promise you.

I have nothing aginst Mayock none what so ever as far as Bradt opinion I respect that as well if that bothers you sorry. As for Thomas he very well could be gone by our pick but every single year guys rise and fall unexpectabley the green room at the draft always has 1 or 2 guys who most everyone thought would go early sitting there waiting. So who is going to go to who? we don't know get past the top 10 picks and players rise and fall

 

[burmafrd]

From a purely physical side yes the players of today are much better.

BUT they are not as tough or love the game as much as the older players.

Its still football. Its still about blocking and tackling and executing plays.

The best teams back then had been together for years. the Packers hardly changed from 1959 to about 1965. Virtually the same starters. You get nowhere near the continuity today. The Cowboys from 1966 to 1972 changed about 6 starters I think. Most of those in the offensive backfield and defensive backfield. The O line and D line and LBS stayed the same. They were better TEAMS.

 

[jterrell]

I'm sorry I disagree with you. Yes more rounds to the draft thus more bust but I see many high picks today that are also bust. Just few rds to the draft.

1967 draft 1st rd

1 Bubba Smith DE Michigan State Baltimore Colts
2 Clint Jones RB Michigan State Minnesota Vikings
3 Steve Spurrier QB Florida San Francisco 49ers
4 Bob Griese QB Purdue Miami Dolphins
5 George Webster LB Michigan State Houston Oilers
6 Floyd Little RB Syracuse Denver Broncos
7 Mel Farr RB UCLA Detroit Lions
8 Gene Washington WR Michigan State Minnesota Vikings
9 Bob Hyland C Boston College Green Bay Packers
10 Loyd Phillips DE Arkansas Chicago Bears
11 Cas Banaszek T Northwestern San Francisco 49ers
12 Paul Seiler OT Notre Dame New York Jets
13 Ray McDonald RB Idaho Washington Commanders
14 Ron Billingsley DT Wyoming San Diego Chargers
15 Alan Page DT Notre Dame Minnesota Vikings
16 Dave Williams WR Washington St. Louis Cardinals
17 Gene Upshaw G Texas A&M - Kingsville Oakland Raiders
18 Bob Matheson LB Duke Cleveland Browns
19 Harry Jones RB Arkansas Philadelphia Eagles
20 Jim Detwiler -- Michigan Baltimore Colts
21 John Charles DB Purdue Boston Patriots
22 John Pitts DB Arizona State Buffalo Bills
23 Tom Regner G Notre Dame Houston Oilers
24 Gene Trosch DE Miami (Fla.) Kansas City Chiefs
25 Don Horn QB San Diego State Green Bay Packers
26 Les Kelley LB Alabama New Orleans Saints

I'll counter with just Cowboys because I do not know who 75% of those players you listed are and am too lazy to look them all up to see they played 1 year or sold insurance. The rate of finding players is very, very low but some of the players found were Hall of Fame caliber and drafted over 100 players into the draft.

1967

1 3 23 76 Phil Clark DB Northwestern
2 4 23 103 Curtis Marker G Northern Michigan
3 6 24 157 Sims Stokes WR Northern Arizona
4 7 23 182 Rayfield Wright T Ft. Valley State
5 8 23 208 Steve Laub QB Illinois Wesleyan
6 9 23 234 Byron Morgan DB Findlay
7 10 23 260 Eugens Bowens RB Tennessee A&I
8 11 22 285 Pat Riley WR Kentucky
9 12 22 312 Harold Deters K North Carolina State
10 13 23 338 Al Kerkian DE Akron
11 14 23 364 Tommy Boyd G Tarleton State
12 15 23 390 Leavie David DB Edward Waters
13 16 23 416 Paul Brothers QB Oregon State
14 17 23 442 George Adams LB Morehead State
1966

1 1 5 5 John Niland G Iowa
2 2 6 22 Willie Townes T Tulsa
3 5 15 79 Walt Garrison RB Oklahoma State
4 6 6 86 Bob Dunlevy WR West Virginia
5 7 5 100 Arthur Robinson WR Florida A&M
6 8 6 116 Don Kunit RB Penn State
7 9 5 130 Darrell Elam WR West Virginia Tech
8 10 6 146 Mason Mitchell RB Washington
9 11 5 160 Austin Denny WR Tennessee
10 12 3 173 Les Shy DB Long Beach State
11 12 6 176 Craig Baynham RB Georgia Tech
12 13 5 190 Ron Lamb RB South Carolina
13 14 6 206 Lewis Turner RB Norfolk State
14 15 5 220 Mark Gartung T Oregon State
15 16 6 236 Tom Piggee RB Cal State-San Francisco
16 17 5 250 George Allen T West Texas State
17 18 6 266 Steve Orr T Washington
18 19 5 280 Byron Johnson T Central Washington
19 20 6 296 Lou Hudson WR Minnesota
1965

1 1 5 5 Craig Morton QB California
2 2 5 19 Malcolm Walker LB Rice
3 4 5 47 Jimmy Sidle RB Auburn
4 4 11 53 Bob Svihus T USC
5 5 5 61 Roger Pettee LB Florida
6 6 5 75 Sonny Utz RB Virginia Tech
7 7 5 89 Brig Owens QB Cincinnati
8 8 5 103 Russell Wayt LB Rice
9 9 5 117 Jim Zanios RB Texas Tech
10 10 5 131 Gaylon McCullough C Alabama
11 11 5 145 Jethro Pugh T Elizabeth City State
12 12 5 159 Ernie Kellerman QB Miami (OH)
13 13 5 173 Jack Schraub E California
14 14 5 187 Gary Porterfield WR Tulsa
15 15 5 201 Gene Foster B Arizona State
16 16 5 215 Doug McDougal E Oregon State
17 17 5 229 Mitch Johnson T UCLA
18 18 5 243 Marty Amsler T Evansville
19 19 5 257 Marv Rettenmund RB Ball State
20 20 5 271 Don Barlow T Kansas State

 

[Doomsday101]

I'll counter with just Cowboys because I do not know who 75% of those players you listed are and am too lazy to look them all up to see they played 1 year or sold insurance. The rate of finding players is very, very low but some of the players found were Hall of Fame caliber and drafted over 100 players into the draft.

1967

1 3 23 76 Phil Clark DB Northwestern
2 4 23 103 Curtis Marker G Northern Michigan
3 6 24 157 Sims Stokes WR Northern Arizona
4 7 23 182 Rayfield Wright T Ft. Valley State
5 8 23 208 Steve Laub QB Illinois Wesleyan
6 9 23 234 Byron Morgan DB Findlay
7 10 23 260 Eugens Bowens RB Tennessee A&I
8 11 22 285 Pat Riley WR Kentucky
9 12 22 312 Harold Deters K North Carolina State
10 13 23 338 Al Kerkian DE Akron
11 14 23 364 Tommy Boyd G Tarleton State
12 15 23 390 Leavie David DB Edward Waters
13 16 23 416 Paul Brothers QB Oregon State
14 17 23 442 George Adams LB Morehead State
1966

1 1 5 5 John Niland G Iowa
2 2 6 22 Willie Townes T Tulsa
3 5 15 79 Walt Garrison RB Oklahoma State
4 6 6 86 Bob Dunlevy WR West Virginia
5 7 5 100 Arthur Robinson WR Florida A&M
6 8 6 116 Don Kunit RB Penn State
7 9 5 130 Darrell Elam WR West Virginia Tech
8 10 6 146 Mason Mitchell RB Washington
9 11 5 160 Austin Denny WR Tennessee
10 12 3 173 Les Shy DB Long Beach State
11 12 6 176 Craig Baynham RB Georgia Tech
12 13 5 190 Ron Lamb RB South Carolina
13 14 6 206 Lewis Turner RB Norfolk State
14 15 5 220 Mark Gartung T Oregon State
15 16 6 236 Tom Piggee RB Cal State-San Francisco
16 17 5 250 George Allen T West Texas State
17 18 6 266 Steve Orr T Washington
18 19 5 280 Byron Johnson T Central Washington
19 20 6 296 Lou Hudson WR Minnesota
1965

1 1 5 5 Craig Morton QB California
2 2 5 19 Malcolm Walker LB Rice
3 4 5 47 Jimmy Sidle RB Auburn
4 4 11 53 Bob Svihus T USC
5 5 5 61 Roger Pettee LB Florida
6 6 5 75 Sonny Utz RB Virginia Tech
7 7 5 89 Brig Owens QB Cincinnati
8 8 5 103 Russell Wayt LB Rice
9 9 5 117 Jim Zanios RB Texas Tech
10 10 5 131 Gaylon McCullough C Alabama
11 11 5 145 Jethro Pugh T Elizabeth City State
12 12 5 159 Ernie Kellerman QB Miami (OH)
13 13 5 173 Jack Schraub E California
14 14 5 187 Gary Porterfield WR Tulsa
15 15 5 201 Gene Foster B Arizona State
16 16 5 215 Doug McDougal E Oregon State
17 17 5 229 Mitch Johnson T UCLA
18 18 5 243 Marty Amsler T Evansville
19 19 5 257 Marv Rettenmund RB Ball State
20 20 5 271 Don Barlow T Kansas State

What I posted you shows 7 Hall of Fame players I'm not looking just at the Cowboys pick but the draft in general

 

[adbutcher]

I've always believed Brandt was overrated as a personnel guy.

He and the Cowboys were better than most teams in the 1970s because they put so much time and resources into scouting. Brandt was great at knowing the right people and collecting information. He hustled.

In the 1980s, other teams caught up to Dallas and the Cowboys took too many shots at prospects instead of players. While Tex and Landry may have made the final call, much of their information came from Brandt.

I blame Brandt for touting guys like Rod Hill and Kevin Brooks so highly, when they didn't have the heart or intelligence to do anything in the NFL.

It was Brandt who said Mike Singletary was too short. But he loved the fact that Mike Walter could "run just as fast backwards as he can forwards."

The guy still hustles, still gathers information, but I don't trust his eye for talent.

Having said all that, I want no part of Campbell.

 

[jazzcat22]

Gil Brandt had his day but the game has changed and so has the requirements for what players of today have to do to be effective NFL players. Offensive and defensive schemes have changed dramatically from the time Brandt was scouting players for the Cowboys. We have hybrid DE/LB's. Brandt's drafting record wasn't good the last 9 years he was apart of the Cowboys. He's still living off his reputation from 40-plus years ago when he use to discover excellent players from small schools. I put alot more stock into guys like Mike Mayock. He was onto Ware a few years ago before anyone else was. He nailed his projection of the type of impact player he would be in the NFL.

Football is still football, and it takes a great athlete to play it.
The game has changed from the media perspective, than the actual game itself.
I would take Gil's word for what he says. Still one of the smartest football guys out there IMO.

 

[CowboyMike]

Mayock is clearly more in tune with players today because he does more study of them. He is hired by the same entity but paid to be a far more intensive presence.

Mayock is very, very good. He is about as good as it gets honestly. His takes on guys have been eerily accurate. When he doesn't like a guy they tend to fall, when he does they rise. Not saying teams heed him or anything just that what he sees, scouts see.

I totally agree. I was not a big fan of his the first couple years he was at NFL Network. I think he was still getting in tune with things. But after that he really turned it on. He's the only one I really trust nowadays because he puts the most time and work in. Charles Davis is good too.

 

[MONT17]

Its not that drafting cambell at 27 is a bad move... Its just drafting Campbell at any point is a bad move bc The Cowboys don't have the support system to draft a player like Campbell...



Marty B is all the proof u need...

 

[dcfanatic]

I totally agree. I was not a big fan of his the first couple years he was at NFL Network. I think he was still getting in tune with things. But after that he really turned it on. He's the only one I really trust nowadays because he puts the most time and work in. Charles Davis is good too.

You just said 'don't trust the media guys', lol.

 

[KJJ]

Football is still football, and it takes a great athlete to play it.
The game has changed from the media perspective, than the actual game itself.
I would take Gil's word for what he says. Still one of the smartest football guys out there IMO.

I don't feel Brandt is nearly in tune with the players of today like Mayock and a few others. Brandt lost touch the final 9 years he was with the Cowboys. I haven't seen anyone nail it on players like Mayock has the last few years. He was a former player and knows what it takes to play into todays game.

 

[KJJ]

I'm glad you saw that. You keep talking about how the guys today would beat guy in the 60's no one will argue that but you rate players the same way vs their peers today as you would back then. Scouts are not comparing todays player to players in the 60's they look at their skill level based on what they are doing vs people they compete aginst here and now. We have seen rule changes that help make it easier for offense to score but many of todays offense where not invented today they have been around for many years.

The thread is about Gil Brandt and I'm arguing that he's not as in tune with the modern players. He lost touch with what type of player it took to be successful with the final 9 years he was with the Cowboys. The Cowboys drafted one first round bust after another until finally they hit on Irvin in 88. By then it was too late the damage had been done. It takes a different type of player to play todays game then the players Brandt hit on in the 60's and 70's. This is the point I'm trying to make. The game passes coaches by because it's changing. Parcells kept trying to win by pounding the ball getting the lead and leaving his defense on the field to hang on. He was still living in the 80's trying to win games the way he did then. The same thing happened to Joe Gibbs when he came back it's hard teaching an old dog new tricks.

These coaches get stuck in their ways. The game passed Landry, Shramm, Gil Brandt and the rest of the old regime by a good 8-9 years prior to their departure. The money players make has changed things alot because some are just in it for the money. They lose their motivation with these huge guaranteed contracts that have them set for life whether they pan out or not. Back in the day some players had to take on a second job during the offseason to make ends meet. Duane Thomas was only making $25,000 a season playing for the Cowboys in the early 70's. He was forced to work part-time as was a few other Cowboys because Shramm was low balling his players.

 

[BourbonBalz]

No one, and I mean NO ONE, knows talent better than Gil Brandt. He is a man that we and every other team in the league should pay attention to.

 

[Doomsday101]

The thread is about Gil Brandt and I'm arguing that he's not as in tune with the modern players. He lost touch with what type of player it took to be successful with the final 9 years he was with the Cowboys. The Cowboys drafted one first round bust after another until finally they hit on Irvin in 88. By then it was too late the damage had been done. It takes a different type of player to play todays game then the players Brandt hit on in the 60's and 70's. This is the point I'm trying to make. The game passes coaches by because it's changing. Parcells kept trying to win by pounding the ball getting the lead and leaving his defense on the field to hang on. He was still living in the 80's trying to win games the way he did then. The same thing happened to Joe Gibbs when he came back it's hard teaching an old dog new tricks.

These coaches get stuck in their ways. The game passed Landry, Shramm, Gil Brandt and the rest of the old regime by a good 8-9 years prior to their departure. The money players make has changed things alot because some are just in it for the money. They lose their motivation with these huge guaranteed contracts that have them set for life whether they pan out or not. Back in the day some players had to take on a second job during the offseason to make ends meet. Duane Thomas was only making $25,000 a season playing for the Cowboys in the early 70's. He was forced to work part-time as was a few other Cowboys because Shramm was low balling his players.

Believe what you choose to believe many of the offense we see today are the offense that were invented and started up by men who coached early on. I have been watching and playing this game for over 40 years and there is nothing being ran in the NFL that was not ran before.

As for scouting again you are looking for the same things you always looked for size, speed, agility, strenght just because todays players are gifted with more size, speed, agility and strenght does not change anything scouts compare apples to apples not what a guy ran in the 60's but how that player performs by todays standards.

 

[KJJ]

Believe what you choose to believe many of the offense we see today are the offense that were invented and started up by men who coached early on. I have been watching and playing this game for over 40 years and there is nothing being ran in the NFL that was not ran before.

As for scouting again you are looking for the same things you always looked for size, speed, agility, strenght just because todays players are gifted with more size, speed, agility and strenght does not change anything scouts compare apples to apples not what a guy ran in the 60's but how that player performs by todays standards.

Every NFL head coach out there will tell you the game has changed from 30-40 years ago and if you want to believe differently then that's up to you but I listened to Belichick, Holmgren, Ditka and several coordinators defensive and offensive talking about how the game has changed over the years. I don't come on here making things up. LOL Any fan who's been following the game for a long period of time can see the changes sorry you can't. Even the equipment players are wearing has been tweaked and improved over the years or do you think the equipment is exactly the same as it was 30 and 40 years ago? LOL It may look similar but you can see the differences especially with the helmets. QB's are wearing radio's in their helmets to get plays you don't think that's changed the game at least some? Even one defensive player is allowed to wear a radio. The advancements in the game have helped change it. Even the way we view the game has changed over the years with technology. Goal posts use to be placed on the goalline. Kickoffs use to be from the 40. They have kicking balls now.

If a kicker misses a FG the ball returns to the spot you don't think that changes the game some? We have a 2 point conversion now they didn't have that option 30-40 years ago you don't think that changes the game some? We have instant replay that's helped change the game. If you hit a QB a fraction of a second too late or hit them in the head or in the knees it's a penalty. You don't think that's changed the game? LOL They outlawed the wedge last season. Horse collar tackles are illegal which has affected how some players tackle such as Roy Williams. They don't have the force out rule anymore a player now has to have both feet in bounds on a catch. You honestly don't think that changes the game some from what it was years ago? I could go on and on and on with all the changes that have been made through the years that has changed the game alot. The OT rule helped changed the game some. Where have you been? LOL All these changes influence strategy and can affect the outcome of a game.

 

[Doomsday101]

Every NFL head coach out there will tell you the game has changed from 30-40 years ago and if you want to believe differently then that's up to you but I listened to Belichick, Holmgren, Ditka and several coordinators defensive and offensive talking about how the game has changed over the years. I don't come on here making things up. LOL Any fan who's been following the game for a long period of time can see the changes sorry you can't. Even the equipment players are wearing has been tweaked and improved over the years or do you think the equipment is exactly the same as it was 30 and 40 years ago? LOL It may look similar but you can see the differences especially with the helmets. QB's are wearing radio's in their helmets to get plays you don't think that's changed the game at least some? Even one defensive player is allowed to wear a radio. The advancements in the game have helped change it. Even the way we view the game has changed over the years with technology. Goal posts use to be placed on the goalline. Kickoffs use to be from the 40. They have kicking balls now.

If a kicker misses a FG the ball returns to the spot you don't think that changes the game some? We have a 2 point conversion now they didn't have that option 30-40 years ago you don't think that changes the game some? We have instant replay that's helped change the game. If you hit a QB a fraction of a second too late or hit them in the head or in the knees it's a penalty. You don't think that's changed the game? LOL They outlawed the wedge last season. Horse collar tackles are illegal which has affected how some players tackle such as Roy Williams. They don't have the force out rule anymore a player now has to have both feet in bounds on a catch. You honestly don't think that changes the game some from what it was years ago? I could go on and on and on with all the changes that have been made through the years that has changed the game alot. The OT rule helped changed the game some. Where have you been? LOL

There are things that have been added and rule changes the game itself by and large no it has not changed. It is still a game of passing, rushing, tackling and blocking. The league has added rules to make the offense easier but the plays that team run both offensively and defensively have been used for many many years. Where have I been right here during all those years

 

[KJJ]

There are things that have been added and rule changes the game itself by and large no it has not changed. It is still a game of passing, rushing, tackling and blocking. The league has added rules to make the offense easier but the plays that team run both offensively and defensively have been used for many many years. Where have I been right here during all those years

Dude the game has changed from 30-40 years ago let it go!

 

[Doomsday101]

Dude the game has changed from 30-40 years ago let it go!

Really? You may want to let it go you keep coming back with these lame things like radio in the helmet or some rule changes. I'm talking about the game it is the same game changes of rules yes been many but the basic of football is still the same game passing, rushing, tackling, blocking and catching if you can't figure that out then so be it but as I said there is not 1 single offense or defense in the NFL that has not been ran before

 

[KJJ]

Really? You may want to let it go you keep coming back with these lame things like radio in the helmet or some rule changes. I'm talking about the game it is the same game changes of rules yes been many but the basic of football is still the same game passing, rushing, tackling, blocking and catching if you can't figure that out then so be it but as I said there is not 1 single offense or defense in the NFL that has not been ran before

The rules alone have changed the game. LOL You can't play the same game with some of the rules they have now. Everyone knows there's still blocking, tackling and catching. You're not only arguing with me but NFL head coaches that have said the same things I'm relaying to you. LOL

 

[Doomsday101]

The rules alone have changed the game. LOL You can't play the same game with some of the rules they have now. Everyone knows there's still blocking, tackling and catching. You're not only arguing with me but NFL head coaches that have said the same things I'm relaying to you. LOL

Rules have changed things you can do in the game it did not change the game. As for the HC that is your talk you make a claim back it up. The size of the field is the same the object of the game is still the same teams still look to run and stop the run team run the same kinds of offensive schemes they have ran for years. Many of the things you are talking about are changes in rules yet the game is still the same game. No doubt teams look to take advantage of the rules if you make it easier to pass the ball teams will look to throw more often yet the routs these guys run same old routs.