What do you guys think about this?

vta

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KJJ;3436036 said:
No but anytime a white police officer strikes or shoots a black person the race card always comes up. That's the way our society is and will always be. Had she been an attractive white girl would have punched her in the face? These are the kind of situations that can cause riots and civil unrest. When you look at the video he could have grabbed her, subdued her and cuffed her case closed!

Why don't you try to handle two unruly people then talk about the ease of closing the case? It's pretty obvious he was having a bit of trouble subduing the small one as it was, the interference by the other, bigger one was just further complication.

And you should know, that that's not how our society will always be. This country is full of people, via immigration, not at all connected to slavery and it's point of relevance in matters of right and wrong, and pandering to someone because of that past will certainly, as it should, diminish. Equality doesn't hold anyone above the masses; law is law and sex, color or otherwise doesn't mean squat.
 

KJJ

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bbgun;3436044 said:
Well, I hope you have the good sense not to stoop to that level.



Oops. Too late.

I wouldn't stoop to the level of punching a woman in the face for grabbing my arm especially if I was a police officer.
 

KJJ

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vta;3436046 said:
Why don't you try to handle two unruly people then talk about the ease of closing the case? It's pretty obvious he was having a bit of trouble subduing the small one as it was, the interference by the other, bigger one was just further complication.

And you should know, that that's not how our society will always be. This country is full of people, via immigration, not at all connected to slavery and it's point of relevance in matters of right and wrong, and pandering to someone because of that past will certainly, as it should, diminish. Equality doesn't hold anyone above the masses; law is law and sex, color or otherwise doesn't mean squat.

All he had to do was pepper spay or taser them and he wouldn't be facing the firestorm he's going through now. Are you telling me his only choice was to punch her in the face? He got angry and tried taking her head off. Maybe Seattle should hire more intimidating looking officers because that one looked like a wimp and proved what a coward he is by punching an unarmed woman in the face. At least pair officers up if you have one who can't handle a couple of women jaywalking. Lucky that wasn't a man or that cop would have shot them dead.
 

bbgun

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KJJ;3436047 said:
I wouldn't stoop to the level of punching a woman in the face for grabbing my arm especially if I was a police officer.

Fine. Just don't ascribe racist motives while you're second-guessing him.
 

Bob Sacamano

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KJJ;3435954 said:
Maybe he pushed her which caused her to push him. Who knows what happened before the video started rolling. It had already turned into a situation by the time the video came on. The cop not only punched a woman in the face in front of a crowed with a video camera rolling but he punched a black woman. You don't think he regrets the situation now? If I were in his shoes I would have done everything I could to restrain her without throwing a punch.

He grabbed her arms and subdued her after he punched her you don't think he could have done that before he threw that punch? She was unarmed and she grabbed at him and he lost control now his life has been turned upside down. All I know is he threw the first punch and it connected to a young woman's face and now this cop is in alot of trouble. If he did the right thing the video wouldn't be all over the news and no one would be talking about it.

There was a good amount of time before the punch to figure out that the cop didn't provoke her at all.

And I don't think there was much more that the officer could have done to subdue the one he punched. She was either getting punched or body-slammed.
 

JustDezIt

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The question is was it immediately neccesary to punch her in the face. No. He made no attempt to subdue her in lighter ways before escalating his level of force. He did not react in the way that he was trained. We get it, you think cops can do anything. But there is procedure, and i posted it earlier in this thread. Even under the hard open hand force level your are supposed to only use force that would only result in moderate chance of injury.
Level Three

"Empty Hand Control. Certain situations will arise where words alone will not reduce the aggression. This is the time police officers will need to get involved physically. This is a level of control employed by police officers minus the aid of equipment or weapons. There are two subcategories called, “soft empty hand techniques” and “hard empty hand techniques.” Soft Empty Hand Techniques: At this level minimal force would involve the use of bare hands to guide, hold, and restrain -- applying pressure points, and take down techniques that have a minimal chance of injury. Hard Empty Hand Techniques: At this level the use of force includes kicks, punches or other striking techniques such as the brachial stun or other strikes to key motor points that have a moderate chance of injury."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1181286114887356316#

Exhibit 4–3: Officer use of weaponless tactics in 7,512 arrests
Arrests Percent of Arrests
No Tactics Used 6,328 84.2
At Least One Tactic Used 1,184 15.8
All Arrests 7,512 100.0
Type of Tactic*
Spit 32 0.4
Grab 954 12.7
Twist Arm 281 3.7
Wrestle 233 3.1
Push/Shove 145 1.9
Hit 30 0.4
Kick 14 0.2
Bite/Scratch 11 0.1
Pressure Hold 83 1.1
Carotid Hold 31 0.4
Control Hold 164 2.2
Other Tactic 70 0.9
Number of Tactics 2,048
* Since some arrests involved the use of more than one tactic, the percentages under

from this survey of six police jurisdictions, the only weaponless tactics used less then the hit are the kick and the scratch- and spitting was used more often. if you cant read that chart here is the link- feel free to educate yourself on the subject.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330-2.pdf#search="use of force continuum"

while a veteran police trainer says he was well within his rights in the force continuum, the seattle police department is questioning it.

SEATTLE -- Seattle police officials said Tuesday that their officers are trained to throw a punch in certain situations, but said they have a "number of concerns" regarding the tactics an officer used in dealing with a 17-year-old girl he punched in the face while trying to cite a group of women for jaywalking.

"The issue we have to investigate is whether the force he used is reasonable given the combative resistance he was facing... and we're not going to pass judgment on that until the matter has been thoroughly investigated,"
said Assistant Seattle Police Chief Nick Metz.

Seattle police have directed a review of Seattle police tactics and training to ensure the training and implementation of those tactics are appropriate and consistent, Metz said.

The review comes in the wake of an altercation captured on video that shows Officer Ian Walsh punching the teenage girl in the face while struggling to get her and another teen under control in South Seattle.

The incident began when Walsh spotted four young women jaywalking the 3100 block of Martin Luther King, Jr. Way S. Walsh asked the group to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being "verbally antagonistic toward the officer," according to officials.

Police said the 19-year-old woman, identified in documents as Marilyn Levias, was resisting when Walsh tried to place handcuffs on her.

Officials said the 17-year-old girl intervened and placed her hands on Walsh's arm, "causing the officer to believe she was attempting to physically affect the first subject's escape," police said.

Walsh pushed back the second girl, but the girl came back at him. Walsh then punched her, police said.

Metz said Walsh will be transferred to a training section and the department will conduct an internal review.

"The officer is going to be transferred to the training section for a few days to review the tactics that he's been taught," Metz said. "The issue we have to investigate is whether the force he used is reasonable given the combative resistance he was facing. We're not going to pass judgment on that until the matter has been thoroughly investigated."

Veteran police trainer: Officer was 'well within scope' of appropriate response.

A 30 year veteran of law enforcement training told KOMO News Tuesday Walsh was "well within the scope of appropriate responses to the situation."

Robert Bragg, the program manager for Fitness and Force Training, said a blow to the face is also within the scope of their training and would be considered a "reasonable response".

It was a potentially threatening situation for the officer, Bragg said, not only with respect to the physical actions of the two women involved but also the group of on-lookers surrounding them and the comments they were making.

Bragg said one area where the officer might have done better was in getting control of the first woman faster. He says Walsh should probably have taken her to the ground quickly instead of trying to cuff her standing up.

Metz: Situation could have been easily defused

Metz said his department has been proactive in reaching out to the African-American community over this recent incident, but added the two women bear some responsibility for their actions because "even if you believe an arrest is unlawful, it does not give you the right to resist."

He added the situation could have been defused if the women had just cooperated.

"It certainly would have not escalated to what it did and the these women have to bear much of the responsibility in the altercation that occurred," Metz said.

But at a press conference later Tuesday, leaders of the Urban League and NAACP said the officer's reaction didn't fit the action, and that the punching was extreme, even if it was a taught tactic.

"That appears to be an overreaction to what appears to be a nonviolent jaywalking situation," said James Kelly, President and CEO of the Urban League of Seattle. "Unfortunately this seems to become too far and too often of the typical police response. The provocation of the 17-year-old may have presented a confrontation situation but the violence in the form of a full-blown fist to the face was wrong.

"This is another case where we stand here and say to the police, 'Shame on you.' "

Kelly added that while he wasn't making excuses for the way the 17-year-old acted, two wrongs don't make a right. "The overreaction of non violent situation should be the last resort, not standard police practice," Kelly said.

He called upon Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn and the two candidates for Seattle police chief to determine how to "put an end to this kind of overreaction."

"If not, the video will keep playing and the world will keep wondering how we've lost our niceness to Seattle."

Both teens were cited for jaywalking. Levias was booked into the King County Jail for investigation of obstructing an officer and released on her own recognizance. Her next court appearance is scheduled for Thursday. The 17-year-old girl was booked into the Youth Service Center for investigation of assault of an officer.

Nobody was injured during the incident, police said.
 

Bob Sacamano

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sm0kie13;3436072 said:
"That appears to be an overreaction to what appears to be a nonviolent jaywalking situation," said James Kelly, President and CEO of the Urban League of Seattle.

:laugh2:Yeah, skip over the overreaction of the 2 sistas.

It's not like the guy just walked up to her, and walloped her in the face for jay-walking.
 

Cajuncowboy

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CowboyWay;3435224 said:
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Life is really pretty easy. A cop tells you to do something, you do it. He tells you to shut up. You shut up. He tells you to go sit down, you go sit down. You argue with him, and act the damn fool, you get what you get. Its not rocket science here.

A cop shows weakness, other people might try to take advantage of the situation. He needs to quell the situation as quickly as he can. If that means a roundhouse kick to the head....well, you get a roundhouse kick to the head.

100% agree.

Besides, many women fought long and hard for equal rights.

There ya go!

:D
 

KJJ

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bbgun;3436060 said:
Fine. Just don't ascribe racist motives while you're second-guessing him.

I didn't say there was any racist motives I don't know the officer but the race card always comes up in these situations.
 

bbgun

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KJJ;3436123 said:
I didn't say there was any racist motives I don't know the officer but the race card always comes up in these situations.

Really? Here's what you wrote:

"Had she been an attractive white girl would he have punched her in the face?"

Knock off the race hustling.
 

vta

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KJJ;3436053 said:
All he had to do was pepper spay or taser them and he wouldn't be facing the firestorm he's going through now. Are you telling me his only choice was to punch her in the face?

No I'm telling you his natural reaction (do remember he is a human being) to being physically confronted is to punch someone in the face.

KJJ;3436053 said:
He got angry and tried taking her head off.

No he didn't, which is why he did not pursue her. He tried to taker her off of him and go back to his duty, which is exactly what he did. The video is the proof of this.

KJJ;3436053 said:
Maybe Seattle should hire more intimidating looking officers because that one looked like a wimp and proved what a coward he is by punching an unarmed woman in the face. At least pair officers up if you have one who can't handle a couple of women jaywalking. Lucky that wasn't a man or that cop would have shot them dead.

Maybe people should stop thinking cops should be mindless bulls, taking all sorts of nonsense from irrational people and understand that they're humans with a job to do to. If his actions are found to be faulty, that is handled in the court, not on the street fighting him, then crying foul when he fights back.

And for the sex angle of it, I have no urge to hit a woman and I never have, but if a woman is falsely under the impression she can take advantage of an old code and start lifting her hands to a man, she and everyone taking notice should be well aware that she might just deserve a good shot in the face. Civility goes both ways.
 

KJJ

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Bob Sacamano;3436067 said:
There was a good amount of time before the punch to figure out that the cop didn't provoke her at all.


Everything that led up to the altercation wasn't on video. He may not have handled the situation right from the very beginning. He may have touched her or used a racial slur to set her off all I know is the video shows he made no attempts to subdue any of those women before throwing that punch. Some think because these guys carry a badge they can do whatever they want. You have cops who speed around when there's no emergencies. Run red lights just because they don't feel like waiting. I don't have anything against cops but there are some bad ones out there who take advantage of their position. A cop has to be pretty stupid to punch a woman in the face in front of a group of people and think it's not going to lead to a firestorm of controversy.


Bob Sacamano;3436067 said:
And I don't think there was much more that the officer could have done to subdue the one he punched. She was either getting punched or body-slammed.


There was alot he could have done but he chose to end it quick by punching her in the face. His abrasive approach from the time he tried to ticket them for jaywalking is probably what led to that outcome. We'll just have to see how it all turns out for him I know one thing that girl has probably already contacted a lawyer.
 

CowboyWay

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KJJ;3436135 said:
We'll just have to see how it all turns out for him I know one thing that girl has probably already contacted a lawyer.

According to the news I saw last night, the police chief already came out and said the cop was totally in the right for what he did. Its a dead issue as far as they are concerned.

As far as a lawyer goes, you'll never find a jury that will award a woman money for not obeying an officer.
 

KJJ

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vta;3436133 said:
No I'm telling you his natural reaction (do remember he is a human being) to being physically confronted is to punch someone in the face.

He's a police officer who's trained and has to show some restraint. He can't handle it like you, me or someone else. If a police officer loses control they've committed a crime just like everyone else and have to pay the price. The investigation will have to show there was just cause for him to punch her in the face.


vta;3436133 said:
No he didn't, which is why he did not pursue her. He tried to taker her off of him and go back to his duty, which is exactly what he did. The video is the proof of this.

If you look at the video it appears she was trying to pull away from him while he was trying to grab her. Looks to me like he was trying to arrest her and she was resisting. This is why the girls friend stepped in. Then he punched the friend and went after her. After he punched her he then started to subdue her. He should have stopped playing tiddlywinks with the first girl who wasn't as big as the one he punched and forcefully grabbed her and subdued her and avoided the entire situation. That officer did not go about it the right way and now he's in hot water.
 

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CowboyWay;3436152 said:
According to the news I saw last night, the police chief already came out and said the cop was totally in the right for what he did. Its a dead issue as far as they are concerned.

As far as a lawyer goes, you'll never find a jury that will award a woman money for not obeying an officer.
Thank you! Case closed she deserved it, period.
 

KJJ

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CowboyWay;3436152 said:
According to the news I saw last night, the police chief already came out and said the cop was totally in the right for what he did. Its a dead issue as far as they are concerned.

As far as a lawyer goes, you'll never find a jury that will award a woman money for not obeying an officer.


If that's how the Seattle police handle things then don't cross them up or you could end up the same way. It's not the first time they've been under fire for punching an unarmed person. If a jury doesn't see just cause for a woman being punched in the face by a police officer they will award them money.
 

vta

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KJJ;3436177 said:
He's a police officer who's trained and has to show some restraint. He can't handle it like you, me or someone else. If a police officer loses control they've committed a crime just like everyone else and have to pay the price. The investigation will have to show there was just cause for him to punch her in the face.


If you look at the video it appears she was trying to pull away from him while he was trying to grab her. Looks to me like he was trying to arrest her and she was resisting. This is why the girls friend stepped in. Then he punched the friend and went after her. After he punched her he then started to subdue her. He should have stopped playing tiddlywinks with the first girl who wasn't as big as the one he punched and forcefully grabbed her and subdued her and avoided the entire situation. That officer did not go about it the right way and now he's in hot water.

He didn't commit a crime and he's not in hot water. You're playing too many what if propositions throughout to prop up how you feel about what's obviously in play. In the end, the department might give mouth honor to a hand-slapping and he will go on about his business. He didn't do anything wrong, you just don't like it. There's a difference.
 
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