What is the plan to upgrade this roster?

[Sydla]

Are you serious? Based on what?

That statement is completely unbelieveable.

Well, they are the only team in the NFL that hasn't added an outside FA yet.

Let's revisit this question in a week. If they've signed guys like Bowman, Boston/Reid, maybe an OL or two, maybe Logan at DT............ then we can say they are at least trying. But if we get to next week and we've basically signed the 2018 version of Nolan Carroll, Damontre Moore and Stephen Paea, then I think one would be hard pressed to argue that the team was really interesting in upgrading their roster right now prior to the draft.

 

[Dylan88Wilson]

I understand and your point is well made. I just wanted to make clear that I believe roster building should be evaluated first by results, second by pro bowl, and all pro results.

Results are deceiving because they’re predicated on too many outside factors - coaching, injuries, schedules, penalties, catch rules, field goals, etc. All of those are separate from individual player talent but greatly affect which teams go deep into the playoffs. It’s the difference between going 12-4 and 4-12 like we did in 2014 & 2015.

 

[Bobhaze]

Results are deceiving because they’re predicated on too many outside factors - coaching, injuries, schedules, penalties, catch rules, field goals, etc. All of those are separate from individual player talent but greatly affect which teams go deep into the playoffs. It’s the difference between going 12-4 and 4-12 like we did in 2014 & 2015.

Regardless of those factors, Results are what most pro sports organizations judge as the bottom line for success. The individual honors are good but in most organizations they take a back seat to winning a championship.

I really could not care less about Cowboys players being in the Pro bowl. Winning in the playoffs is the goal. The other stuff to me is just...meh.

 

[ICP]

Plan? We don't need no stinkin plan, we have a PROCESS!

 

[Dylan88Wilson]

But the results are all that matters. Great, they draft well. They still have an incomplete roster that isn't one of the more talented teams in the NFL. While other teams on the cusp will then use trades and FA to fill in those last couple of holes, we seemingly sit it out.

So for all the chatter about how awesome we are at drafting, let's note that here we sit with a roster that has NUMEROUS holes. So guess what? They aren't as good at roster building as you think.

Results ≠ Player Talent. Jacksonville had nearly the same roster as they do now when they went 3-13 in 2016. The results would have told you their roster was garbage from top to bottom, but that’s why “results” are a lazy method to evaluate roster talent.

But what are these “NUMEROUS holes”? WR, LG, DT, LB, S? Literally a handful of positions. We have twice that in draft picks. You can step back from the ledge now.

 

[Ddisco22]

One of the curious aspects of this offseason so far is that it is not very clear what this FO’s strategy is to upgrade this roster in areas that were clearly problems last year. I’m sure it will be much clearer by late April.

I like the idea of not overpaying for high priced mediocre talent as many teams seem to have done this offseason. I like putting more emphasis on having a quality draft. But if there are no FAs signed that can help this team now, it puts enormous pressure on the draft having immediate impact. That’s not impossible, but it puts all eggs in one basket.

And I’m not saying yet that this front office is blowing it, I’m just curious what they seem to be counting on to upgrade this roster.

Thoughts?

Wish we knew what the plan to upgrade was, But... It's too late for that!

 

[Dylan88Wilson]

Regardless of those factors, Results are what most pro sports organizations judge as the bottom line for success. The individual honors are good but in most organizations they take a back seat to winning a championship.

I really could not care less about Cowboys players being in the Pro bowl. Winning in the playoffs is the goal. The other stuff to me is just...meh.

Like I said, results are completely irrelevant to the original point I made that Dallas is the best drafting team in the NFL and doesn’t need to be big spenders in free agency in order to build a talented roster. Results / Success ≠ Talent. That was never the argument and is only now being presented as such because the original point failed to be refuted. But if results / success did = talent, then why aren’t we saying Robert Horry was more talented than Michael Jordan?

 

[Bobhaze]

Like I said, results are completely irrelevant to the original point I made that Dallas is the best drafting team in the NFL and doesn’t need to be big spenders in free agency in order to build a talented roster. Results / Success ≠ Talent. That was never the argument and is only now being presented as such because the original point failed to be refuted. But if results / success did = talent, then why aren’t we saying Robert Horry was more talented than Michael Jordan?

Teams win championships, not individual players. Pro sports are full of great players who never win a championship. Robert Horry was a perfect role player in a bunch of championship teams. Michael Jordan didn’t win a championship until all players around him gelled as a team.

Look...my original point of this thread was to simply ask what the plan was to build a better roster. It evolved into a good discussion of talent vs team, which was fine with me.

One other thing. I’m not trying to “win” an argument. I like the discussion. You made some good points about talent and drafting. I’m fine with dissenting views. I just have a bottom line belief that talent is only as good as what it does to help you win a championship.

 

[RoboQB]

Ever hear of Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith? The 90s teams wouldn’t have gotten very far with Charles Haley, Deion and Jay Novacek without the triplets who we drafted.

I believe Jimmy Johnson said "we couldn't even spell Super Bowl until we got Charles Haley."

 

[Stash]

One of the curious aspects of this offseason so far is that it is not very clear what this FO’s strategy is to upgrade this roster in areas that were clearly problems last year. I’m sure it will be much clearer by late April.

I like the idea of not overpaying for high priced mediocre talent as many teams seem to have done this offseason. I like putting more emphasis on having a quality draft. But if there are no FAs signed that can help this team now, it puts enormous pressure on the draft having immediate impact. That’s not impossible, but it puts all eggs in one basket.

And I’m not saying yet that this front office is blowing it, I’m just curious what they seem to be counting on to upgrade this roster.

Thoughts?

It's difficult for me to fully understand "the plan" at this point too. Several moves and non-moves have me puzzled.

Starting at receiver. So, they were in on Sammy Watkins and money wasn't the reason why he signed in Kansas City? Ok. That tellms that they were going to pay that guy $16 million a year and replace Bryant. Not smart in my opinion.

But then, when Jordy Nelson was released, they showed no interest before he signed with Oakland for $15 million over two years. Another head scratcher for me.

And, despite losing Hitchens, there's little or no sense of urgency to do anything at linebacker? As if they can only look at receivers and offensive line right now and maybe look at linebackers at another time?

Again, head scratching.

What certainly doesn't help, even from a perception point of view is the fact that the Joneses picked this time to take a family vacation. Even to the most diehard fan, that's just not a good look. Plenty of other time for that.

At this point, I'm seeing reactionary thinking more than a concrete plan. Not that improving your swing tackle options isn't a wise decision, but more that it's not much of any big picture thinking either.

 

[KJJ]

I believe Jimmy Johnson said "we couldn't even spell Super Bowl until we got Charles Haley."

The Cowboys had already built a good team before Haley arrived and he helped push them over the top but they would have had no team without those drafts that brought Irvin, Aikman, Emmitt, Ken Norton and most of the Great Wall of Dallas. That team was but through the draft. The Cowboys traded for Charles Haley he wasn’t a free agent. They invested draft picks to get him.

 

[ESisback]

I understand and your point is well made. I just wanted to make clear that I believe roster building should be evaluated first by results, second by pro bowl, and all pro results.

Hazey, I think you're BOTH right, and it's a VERY thin line, all influenced by a collection of many different variables.

 

[Dylan88Wilson]

Teams win championships, not individual players. Pro sports are full of great players who never win a championship. Robert Horry was a perfect role player in a bunch of championship teams. Michael Jordan didn’t win a championship until all players around him gelled as a team.

Look...my original point of this thread was to simply ask what the plan was to build a better roster. It evolved into a good discussion of talent vs team, which was fine with me.

One other thing. I’m not trying to “win” an argument. I like the discussion. You made some good points about talent and drafting. I’m fine with dissenting views. I just have a bottom line belief that talent is only as good as what it does to help you win a championship.

For the record, Bob, you’re one of my favorite posters on here and I always appreciate your insight and opinions, even when we don’t agree.

 

[RoboQB]

The Cowboys had already built a good team before Haley arrived and he helped push them over the top but they would have had no team without those drafts that brought Irvin, Aikman, Emmitt, Ken Norton and most of the Great Wall of Dallas. That team was but through the draft. The Cowboys traded for Charles Haley he wasn’t a free agent. They invested draft picks to get him.

I'm aware that Haley wasn't a free agent. I believe we gave a 4th for him. His name was mentioned so I thought it
relevant to bring up the quote.

 

[Wolf2k5]

I’m just wondering who is left in FA that people actually would get excited about? I’m not on the side that said we should have made a splash and spent tons of $$$ but who is left that people are really pining for now?

 

[ESisback]

For the record, Bob, you’re one of my favorite posters on here and I always appreciate your insight and opinions, even when we don’t agree.

I know I'm not really part of this conversation, but I agree with your view on Bob. I like many of your posts as well.

 

[Plankton]

 

[Sydla]

Results ≠ Player Talent. Jacksonville had nearly the same roster as they do now when they went 3-13 in 2016. The results would have told you their roster was garbage from top to bottom, but that’s why “results” are a lazy method to evaluate roster talent.

But what are these “NUMEROUS holes”? WR, LG, DT, LB, S? Literally a handful of positions. We have twice that in draft picks. You can step back from the ledge now.

Well, for starters, the Jags went from 3-13 because of a new coaching staff AND they brought in a bunch of free agents, especially on defense - Campbell, Church, Bouye, etc. So Jacksonville would be an example of my point, not yours. They also traded for Dareus. They drafted a core of guys like Ramsey, etc. and then supplemented them with free agents/trade.

Secondly, I love when you guys talk about all these drafts picks we have as if each is equal in value. 7 our our 10 picks are in the 4th round or later. The likelihood of landing starters and key contributors with those later picks is often low. You guys act like we have 6 picks in the first two rounds.

In other words, it's unlikely this team will find a starting LG, a starting 1 Tech, a starting MLB, a starting S, a top 3 WR and possibly a high level swing tackle out of this draft, even with 10 picks. That also doesn't change the fact we probably need another edge rusher (we were middle of the pack in sacks and QB pressures last year) and if Gathers isn't ready, a legit #2 TE too.

Further, when you have that many needs, your draft board often then skews towards need over best player. That's why FA is important. You can fill a couple of needs that way and then it frees up the draft to take BPA and takes the pressure off of having to not only nail half your picks but also those picks have to be clear needs.

 

[KJJ]

I'm aware that Haley wasn't a free agent. I believe we gave a 4th for him. His name was mentioned so I thought it
relevant to bring up the quote.

He was a very important player for the Cowboys but the point I’m making is you build great teams through the draft. One player doesn’t make a great team or a great unit it takes several players. Haley only put up 10 sacks his first two seasons with the Cowboys but he was very disruptive which opened up our pass rush. Having to account for him gave us a fierce pass rush. We had a number of players that put up sacks. I’m not one of those who believes we would have never won a Super Bowl without Charles Haley.

SF ended up winning the Super Bowl in 94 without him and we were more talented than they were. No question Haley made us even better but what made those great teams was the great drafts we had. Ware put up a lot more sacks than Charles Haley ever did but we had very few good things because we didn’t have many good players around him.

 

[Sydla]

Let's look at this belief system that says that Cowboys don't need to be more active in FA because they have 10 picks in the draft.

As I noted above, 7 of the 10 are the 4th round or later, so assuming you will land some players that can make immediate impacts with those picks might be a reach. I am sure someone will point out that Prescott was a 4th round pick.

Over the last 5 years, here are our picks from the 4th round on:

BW Webb
Joseph Randle
DeVonte Holloman
Anthony Hitchens
Devin Street
Will Smith
Ahmad Dixon
Ken Bishop
Terrance Mitchell
Damien Wilson
Ryan Russell
Mark Nzeocha
Laurence Gibson
Geoff Swaim
Charles Tapper
Dak Prescott
Anthony Brown
Kevon Frazier
Darius Jackson
Rico Gathers
Ryan Switzer
Xavier Woods
Marquez White
Joey Ivie
Noah Brown
Jordan Carrell

That's 26 picks from the 4th round on. Two are/were legit starters - Prescott and Hitchens. One, Woods, has potential. Two, Brown and Frazier are situational players at this point. And then you have Gathers and Switzer - talent but little production.

So basically in 26 4th round or later picks, 6-7 are actually quality or could be quality players. And yet people are acting like we are going to pluck productive players left and right with our plethora of 4th through 7 round picks.