Witten might be at the end of his rope

[Galian Beast]

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/its-time-to-cut-demarcus-ware.276978/

that is me last December saying it was time to cut Ware.

Ware was scheduled to make $13m in salary and had a cap hit of ~$20m. Witten is scheduled to make $5.1m ins salary for all your handwaving at sunk costs.

Yeah and the biggest differences between Ware and Witten is that Ware represented a larger role on our team, and was a better player at his position that we held on to for longer than we should have at his compensation, which came at a cost to the rest of the team. We also didn't have any replacements for Ware on the team already.

This isn't the case for Witten.

We have Hanna AND Escobar. And Jason Witten isn't worth enough to this team to cost 8 million dollars. And yes, I repeat it is 8 million, as you have to look at his cost through 2017.

The defensive player we can sign in turn for Jason Witten combined with the contribution of Hanna/Escobar more than makes up for the loss of Jason Witten.

That being said, I'd more than be willing to keep Witten at lower compensation.

 

[ActualCowboysFan]

The same people said Ware would never be cut.

No they didn't. At his number a pay cut or release were a foregone conclusion.

As for Witten making the hall of fame, I think you overestimate how many Tight Ends make it into the NFL and you overlook the fact that Witten's touchdown numbers are anemic compared to other tight ends of this era.

Witten is referred to as a future hall of famer as consistently as any active player. He has widely been considered the most well rounded TE in the league for a decade. He is well liked and respected for his performance both on and off the field league wide. He holds numerous team and league records for a position that has grown significantly in importance during his career. He'll likely never catch Tony Gonzalez in yards or catches, although he could feasibly do so. But he'll finish his career at second in virtually every category for his position. He'll walk into the hall at the first opportunity. Sorry bro.

 

[Galian Beast]

Witten is referred to as a future hall of famer as consistently as any active player. He has widely been considered the most well rounded TE in the league for a decade. He is well liked and respected for his performance both on and off the field league wide. He holds numerous team and league records for a position that has grown significantly in importance during his career. He'll likely never catch Tony Gonzalez in yards or catches, although he could feasibly do so. But he'll finish his career at second in virtually every category for his position. He'll walk into the hall at the first opportunity. Sorry bro.

Again, his TD numbers will be looked at when he is eligible and they will be found lacking. The idea that he is the most well rounded tight end in the league is also a myth that Cowboys fans have been pushing for a decade. His blocking until recently (especially his pass blocking) has left a lot to be desired. Today, Bennett is probably a better blocker and a better receiver than Witten.

When you look at the number of tight ends with more touchdowns than Witten, and they will, he's going to have trouble. Unless we win a super bowl, Witten certainly won't be a first ballot hall of famer.

 

[dragon_mikal]

Yeah and the biggest differences between Ware and Witten is that Ware represented a larger role on our team, and was a better player at his position that we held on to for longer than we should have at his compensation, which came at a cost to the rest of the team. We also didn't have any replacements for Ware on the team already.

This isn't the case for Witten.

We have Hanna AND Escobar. And Jason Witten isn't worth enough to this team to cost 8 million dollars. And yes, I repeat it is 8 million, as you have to look at his cost through 2017.

The defensive player we can sign in turn for Jason Witten combined with the contribution of Hanna/Escobar more than makes up for the loss of Jason Witten.

That being said, I'd more than be willing to keep Witten at lower compensation.

Escobar and Hanna are not as good as Witten. That's why Witten isn't going anywhere.

When someone is still one of the best at his position he gets paid.

Downgrading at positions is called getting worse not better.

 

[Galian Beast]

Escobar and Hanna are not as good as Witten. That's why Witten isn't going anywhere.

When someone is still one of the best at his position he gets paid.

Downgrading at positions is called getting worse not better.

Who on the team was better than Ware?

When you overpay for positions it comes at a cost to other positions on the team relative to the rest of the league.

Are hanna and escobar as good as witten? No, not at all, are they considerable options? Yes they are.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah and the biggest differences between Ware and Witten is that Ware represented a larger role on our team, and was a better player at his position that we held on to for longer than we should have at his compensation, which came at a cost to the rest of the team. We also didn't have any replacements for Ware on the team already.

This isn't the case for Witten.

We have Hanna AND Escobar. And Jason Witten isn't worth enough to this team to cost 8 million dollars. And yes, I repeat it is 8 million, as you have to look at his cost through 2017.

The defensive player we can sign in turn for Jason Witten combined with the contribution of Hanna/Escobar more than makes up for the loss of Jason Witten.

That being said, I'd more than be willing to keep Witten at lower compensation.

Witten makes $5.1m this year. It's like youre oblivious of the fact.

And then we look sand see that Witten is one of 7 offensive players that has played every snap. When Witten gets a degenerative neuromuscular condition in his neck and chronic joint and soft tissue injuries let me know.

 

[Galian Beast]

Well you're absolutely clueless. Moving on now.

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...-faces-obstacles-in-quest-to-hall-of-fame.ece

 

[BigStar]

Witten makes $5.1m this year. It's like youre oblivious of the fact.

And then we look sand see that Witten is one of 7 offensive players that has played every snap. When Witten gets a degenerative neuromuscular condition in his neck and chronic joint and soft tissue injuries let me know.

I was under the impression it was closer to 8. 5 seems totally fair.

 

[Idgit]

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...-faces-obstacles-in-quest-to-hall-of-fame.ece

That article cites two hurdles: the position he plays, and the success of the team he's on. Neither of those points help your argument.

 

[Galian Beast]

That article cites two hurdles: the position he plays, and the success of the team he's on. Neither of those points help your argument.

Only if you ignore those hurdles...

 

[ActualCowboysFan]

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...-faces-obstacles-in-quest-to-hall-of-fame.ece

Click that link, scroll to the bottom, check out that list and let me know what that little * stands for. Also know that Witten holds plenty of records those guys behind him, who are in the HOF, don't. Other than the idiot you channeled for your argument, everyone considers him to be a lock.

 

[Galian Beast]

Click that link, scroll to the bottom, check out that list and let me know what that little * stands for. Also know that Witten holds plenty of records those guys behind him, who are in the HOF, don't. Other than the idiot you channeled for your argument, everyone considers him to be a lock.

It's not just about numbers, and I like how everyone ignores the fact that he is severely lacking in TDs.

Not many tight ends go into the HOF and he has a ton of competition. It's not a slam dunk, and if you think it is, you're being a homer.

 

[Galian Beast]

Gronkowski has been in the league for only 5 years, and has almost as many touchdowns as Witten who has been in the league 12 years.

Antonio Gates has nearly double the touchdowns Witten has.

 

[jday]

Me personally, I don't think players should take a pay cut if that's what was agreed to in the contract. Maybe push the money forward, but an outright pay cut definitely isn't happening. I think those two guys have earned every penny on their contract, they're one of you few you can say that about on this team. I see what you're saying though, 8 million/year definitely is a steep price, not just for Witten but for any TE. With that said, even though Witten's production may not be what it once was, his off the field presence and leadership are still the same and he's a mentor for these younger guys. With a team so young, you need a couple veterans to pave the way and show them the ropes of being a PRO.

By that same token, players shouldn't be able to hold out for more money when they out-perform their current contract...but they do all the time.

 

[ActualCowboysFan]

It's not just about numbers, and I like how everyone ignores the fact that he is severely lacking in TDs.

Not many tight ends go into the HOF and he has a ton of competition. It's not a slam dunk, and if you think it is, you're being a homer.

Yes it is and no I'm not. He's called future Hall of Famer Jason Witten so often they should put it on his birth certificate. I like how you say its not about the numbers and then use a single number to make your argument. It's not all about the numbers, but his are overwhelming. Again, all those guys on your link's list are in the hall and are behind him. And he's still playing. But outside of the numbers, Witten has a ton going in his favor. He plays for a marquee team. He is on national games regularly. Despite your ridiculous suggestion that his role as most complete tight end is fan fiction, it's the conventional wisdom and will play a huge part in his candidacy. He's also widely regarded as a high quality individual and leader and has won the award for man of the year. Put all those together with his numbers far ahead of his positional peers who are already in the Hall.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was under the impression it was closer to 8. 5 seems totally fair.

Galian Beast is presenting his cap charge which includes his dead money and waving his hands. His salary next year is $5m.

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/dallas-cowboys/

Don't trust me. Look for yourself. I think it revealing as to GB's credibility.

 

[Idgit]

Only if you ignore those hurdles...

I must be missing the gist of your argument. You posted that link in response to someone criticizing your argument that Witten's TE production was somehow insufficient. Yet the article doesn't criticise his productivity at his position. It says that all players at his position and all players on teams without team success have a hard time getting into the HoF, without regard to how good a player he really is.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...-faces-obstacles-in-quest-to-hall-of-fame.ece

The article says Sharpe only waited 3 years and Witten is going to smash all of his records. You go long on assertions and don't have the faintest clue to provide supporting arguments.

I guess you just like the attention or something.

 

[BigStar]

Galian Beast is presenting his cap charge which includes his dead money and waving his hands. His salary next year is $5m.

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/dallas-cowboys/

Don't trust me. Look for yourself. I think it revealing as to GB's credibility.

Appreciate the info (your correct) but not gonna pile on cus I've been there Witten is a keeper @ 5 (albeit a step slower) esp considering his improved run blocking and this style of offense swaying towards the run game much more. Can still sit in the zones and has hands. But see his point if it was 8+ and GB had thought that was his number initially, etc.

 

[Galian Beast]

I must be missing the gist of your argument. You posted that link in response to someone criticizing your argument that Witten's TE production was somehow insufficient. Yet the article doesn't criticise his productivity at his position. It says that all players at his position and all players on teams without team success have a hard time getting into the HoF, without regard to how good a player he really is.

You've conflated two different things.

I said Witten's production doesn't warrant paying him 8 million dollars per year.

Seperately I said that Witten will have a harder time getting into the HoF than many fans think and I've listed many reasons for it. First and foremost is the reality that tight ends in general have trouble getting into the HoF. Following that Witten has so much competition, and that he falls short in TDs... I wouldn't be surprised if he never makes it in.