You wanted youth in the secondary?

[NeonNinja]

Carroll is only question I have. No clue why they think he's good enough to start.

 

[jazzcat22]

Care to refute the post?

The secondary is a disaster and it's largely tied to poor decision making by the front office. Or are you denying that?

2 games and it is a disaster? We were missing Scandrick, Awuzie went out, Carroll, though good or bad was in and out of the game. We had players playing out of position against 2 very good WR's. Heck Frazier was playing CB on some plays. Even he went out temporarily.
Lewis in his 1st action all year including TC.
Yes they need work, but not jumping off the cliff nor blaming the FO on that.
So yes I am refuting it. Give it a few more games or so.

 

[THEHEREAFTER]

Well you got it.

The offseason plan to fixing one of our biggest needs is showing to be a failure. The plan was apparently draft a bunch of rookies, sign Nolan Carroll and that would be the change that would make a 13-3 team that was one porous secondary from making a NFC title game better.

Failure. Massive failure.

Carroll is bad. He just is. Some deluded themselves into thinking that he was just a poor victim of a misfit system in Philly. He wasn't. Philly played more zone last year than they normally want to because of a bad secondary and Carroll still sucked. Philly opted to go with rookies and Jalen Mills, who got toasted in a key moment in the KC game yesterday, and FA trash Patrick Robinson instead of bringing Carroll back. Oh, and yes, Carroll is a worse CB than Carr, who people wanted run out of town.

The front office took an unnecessary risk with the secondary this year. And it's going to bite them in the butt again IMO. Note, that doesn't mean I think Awuzie and Lewis are bad players. I actually think they will be fine players. But this team could have still drafted those guys will still spending a bit more money on upgrading the 2016 secondary.

At this point, I might go drastic and put Woods at FS, return Jones to CB (he's not a very good FS, I've given up hope after defending him, he's just not a playmaker back there). And this offseason I invest real FA dollars in upgrading the secondary while bringing Lewis and Awuzie along.

As big a failure as Aaron Rodgers lighting us up in the playoffs or no?

 

[Reverend Conehead]

Could be a train-wreck of a season.

But I don't think so.

Think they are 3-1 after the first 4 games.

And the young players will benefit from having their feet held to the fire.

I hope you're right. My concern about the youth-in-corners approach is that it's a position that takes some time to get good at. That's why I wanted to keep either Carr or Claiborne. Carr took a lot of heat, but he was very capable. Claiborne also finally started playing really well, but struggled staying healthy. Would preferred to have kept Carr. Just wasn't in the cards, I guess.

 

[Sydla]

2 games and it is a disaster? We were missing Scandrick, Awuzie went out, Carroll, though good or bad was in and out of the game. We had players playing out of position against 2 very good WR's. Heck Frazier was playing CB on some plays. Even he went out temporarily.
Lewis in his 1st action all year including TC.
Yes they need work, but not jumping off the cliff nor blaming the FO on that.
So yes I am refuting it. Give it a few more games or so.

Carroll being out might have been a blessing. He was beat yesterday on every play he was targeted.

Again, when he's the big key free agent signing to help get a 13-3 team over the hump, that's a flawed plan. Those are just the facts. Look, they've bargain shopped at DE for a few years and guess what? We still don't have a consistent pass rush. They didn't learn from that and they bargain shopped in the secondary and guess what? It's pretty much the same secondary, maybe worse, and they are sitting there crossing their fingers that Awuzie and Lewis can solve the secondary problems.

That seems like a pretty flawed plan to me.

 

[Sydla]

I hope you're right. My concern about the youth-in-corners approach is that it's a position that takes some time to get good at. That's why I wanted to keep either Carr or Claiborne. Carr took a lot of heat, but he was very capable. Claiborne also finally started playing really well, but struggled staying healthy. Would preferred to have kept Carr. Just wasn't in the cards, I guess.

Exactly. Few rookie CBs come in and just take off right from the start and they typically tend to be high drafted CBs (Ramsey and Peters being the two most recent guys). That's not to say Awuzie and Lewis aren't going to be good players, I think they will be.

But this team needed a better influx of vet talent to help integrate these young guys.

 

[jjktkk]

Care to refute the post?

The secondary is a disaster and it's largely tied to poor decision making by the front office. Or are you denying that?

The offseason plan to fixing one of our biggest needs is showing to be a failure. The plan was apparently draft a bunch of rookies, sign Nolan Carroll and that would be the change that would make a 13-3 team that was one porous secondary from making a NFC title game better.

Failure. Massive failure.

Carroll is bad. He just is. Some deluded themselves into thinking that he was just a poor victim of a misfit system in Philly. He wasn't. Philly played more zone last year than they normally want to because of a bad secondary and Carroll still sucked. Philly opted to go with rookies and Jalen Mills, who got toasted in a key moment in the KC game yesterday, and FA trash Patrick Robinson instead of bringing Carroll back. Oh, and yes, Carroll is a worse CB than Carr, who people wanted run out of town.

The front office took an unnecessary risk with the secondary this year. And it's going to bite them in the butt again IMO. Note, that doesn't mean I think Awuzie and Lewis are bad players. I actually think they will be fine players. But this team could have still drafted those guys will still spending a bit more money on upgrading the 2016 secondary.

At this point, I might go drastic and put Woods at FS, return Jones to CB (he's not a very good FS, I've given up hope after defending him, he's just not a playmaker back there). And this offseason I invest real FA dollars in upgrading the secondary while bringing Lewis and Awuzie along.[/QUOTE]

This would be a really insightful thread if this was the end of the season, but one game? Wow, talk about jumping the gun. I can almost feel you were waiting all Summer to make this thread. Injuries to the secondary played a role in this, plus because of the overall youth in the secondary,most of us knew there would be growing pains.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I hope you're right. My concern about the youth-in-corners approach is that it's a position that takes some time to get good at. That's why I wanted to keep either Carr or Claiborne. Carr took a lot of heat, but he was very capable. Claiborne also finally started playing really well, but struggled staying healthy. Would preferred to have kept Carr. Just wasn't in the cards, I guess.

Would Carr, Claiborne, Church & Wilcox have turned that loss into a win?

No way.

Might as well go with the kids.

They need to play and take their lumps.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Exactly. Few rookie CBs come in and just take off right from the start and they typically tend to be high drafted CBs (Ramsey and Peters being the two most recent guys). That's not to say Awuzie and Lewis aren't going to be good players, I think they will be.

But this team needed a better influx of vet talent to help integrate these young guys.

A couple more vets in the secondary would NOT have turned that loss into a win yesterday.

 

[Sydla]

A couple more vets in the secondary would NOT have turned that loss into a win yesterday.

Think bigger picture here. A couple more vets likely would help over the course of a season. Instead, here's where we are. We know Carroll blows and Heath is struggling. And the hope now is that two rookie CBs can get healthy and start playing like seasoned vets.

 

[Sydla]

I will. Injuries had a big role in all of this, forcing the rookies and younger players to play more significant playing time then they were ready for. You're lamenting the FO for letting mediocre talent like Carr, Church, and Claiborne, and Wilcox walk? Really?


This would be a really insightful thread if this was the end of the season, but one game? Wow, talk about jumping the gun. I can almost feel you were waiting all Summer to make this thread. Injuries to the secondary played a role in this, plus because of the overall youth in the secondary,most of us knew there would be growing pains.

It's funny what people read.

Nowhere did I state that I am lamenting the loss of Carr, Church, Claiborne and Wilcox.

What I am lamenting is that after letting them walk, they brought in a guy in Carroll who was worse than any of them. I had no problems overhauling the secondary (although I might have brought one guy like Carr back) but when you let the guys we had walk and then go out and bring in Nolan Carroll and ignore some quality SS on the FA board to hand a job to Heath, I have a problem with that.

I am lamenting the fact that we had a 13 win team that went into the offseason knowing the secondary was a real problem and that it needed addressing in the draft and likely in FA. And while they did a nice job in the draft, they botched FA thinking that Nolan Carroll would be a nice player for us and Heath would be a good SS for us.

People are now trying to use injuries as an excuse but the reality is Carroll, for example, getting injured might be a blessing for this team. He's the worst CB on the team. That's not an exaggeration.

Now people are trying to rationalize it away by saying they expected growing pains. They didn't really have to have "growing pains" if they had done a better job at addressing secondary needs.

They've basically approached the secondary like they did the DE spot. Hit the bargain bins for vet talent and draft some guys (although I like their draft picks at CB better than their lack of finding a true edge rusher in the draft).

 

[jazzcat22]

Carroll being out might have been a blessing. He was beat yesterday on every play he was targeted.

Again, when he's the big key free agent signing to help get a 13-3 team over the hump, that's a flawed plan. Those are just the facts. Look, they've bargain shopped at DE for a few years and guess what? We still don't have a consistent pass rush. They didn't learn from that and they bargain shopped in the secondary and guess what? It's pretty much the same secondary, maybe worse, and they are sitting there crossing their fingers that Awuzie and Lewis can solve the secondary problems.

That seems like a pretty flawed plan to me.

I can't disagree with the bargain shopping mentality. They went from overpaid high profile FA's to being afraid to dip into FA. That is not good. I like they want to build through the draft, but not last the expense of getting that so called war daddy. They tried and got burned but Jerry being a risk taker has backed off now.

However I will give the new secondary a few more game to see how they do. Not expecting a Denver type no fly zone, but just a steady improvement as the year goes on. I will even give Carroll a bit of leeway on this game. He went through the concussion protocol early, maybe he should have been kept out, it effected him. They, including Carroll played well against the Giants even without Beckham. Supposedly they had 3 WR's and a tE that are to be almost unstoppable, so minus Beckham, should they not have still done something more than they did?

Again, give them a few more games.

 

[jjktkk]

Some of you are missing the point.

If you expected issues in the secondary, especially early, that highlights the flawed plan for a team coming off a 13 season.

I mean are some of you really arguing that it was a right plan to make moves that would turn a 13 win team into a 9 win team?

They could have still drafted youth and brought in some good vets at CB and maybe safety. There's the real problem with their plan.

No, you're problem is you want Jerry to break out his check book and spend, spend, spend, on CBs and DEs, which has gotten this team in huge trouble in the past. Given Anthony Brown's stellar rookie season, and Scandrick getting back healthy, I had no problem riding these two along with the signing of Carroll. Carroll has looked terrible, I'll give you that, but that's why they drafted Awuzie,and Lewis. Promising starting caliber players, but rookies. Injuries in the secondary has forced the these youngsters into more playing time than the coaching staff might have wanted, but that happens.

 

[waving monkey]

I still think we shoulda kept Mo. He was a shutdown corner when he was on the field last year.

how often was that

 

[Nav22]

Actually, I wanted talent.

Greedy SOB.

 

[Sydla]

I can't disagree with the bargain shopping mentality. They went from overpaid high profile FA's to being afraid to dip into FA. That is not good. I like they want to build through the draft, but not last the expense of getting that so called war daddy. They tried and got burned but Jerry being a risk taker has backed off now.

However I will give the new secondary a few more game to see how they do. Not expecting a Denver type no fly zone, but just a steady improvement as the year goes on. I will even give Carroll a bit of leeway on this game. He went through the concussion protocol early, maybe he should have been kept out, it effected him. They, including Carroll played well against the Giants even without Beckham. Supposedly they had 3 WR's and a tE that are to be almost unstoppable, so minus Beckham, should they not have still done something more than they did?

Again, give them a few more games.

Chuckle at giving Carroll some leeway.

It's like we never learn. Oh yeah, he may have one game here or there where he's not lit up like a Christmas tree, but he's going to be a problem all year. I just hope that if he's out with a concussion, someone, anyone takes his job.

 

[Sydla]

No, you're problem is you want Jerry to break out his check book and spend, spend, spend, on CBs and DEs, which has gotten this team in huge trouble in the past. Given Anthony Brown's stellar rookie season, and Scandrick getting back healthy, I had no problem riding these two along with the signing of Carroll. Carroll has looked terrible, I'll give you that, but that's why they drafted Awuzie,and Lewis. Promising starting caliber players, but rookies. Injuries in the secondary has forced the these youngsters into more playing time than the coaching staff might have wanted, but that happens.

There is a pretty big wide area between spending a ton on big name FAs and then hitting the bargain bin thinking you can sign bad players and make them into quality players that fix glaring holes on this team.

Why is that you guys often struggle with this concept? You always just act like it's either spend way too much on top name FAs or sign junk bargain players?

 

[manster4ever]

No...I didn't want 'youth' at all. I wanted to keep MO and Carr but....whatever.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Care to refute the post?

The secondary is a disaster and it's largely tied to poor decision making by the front office. Or are you denying that?

It's one game and you glorify in fearmongering. The rookies are young and developing. All I get from most of your posts is that you don't really understand what player development entails.

 

[MRV52]

Let's make an evaluation when and if we get a healthy secondary. It is way to premature at the moment to write these guys off. Remember as we get back our suspended Dl players I think our pass rush will improve helping out that secondary.